minor issue/rant

[ScionofImperius]

My friends and I have begun a new game of D&d 3.5 and one of our homerules for the game is you have to have at least a +4 level mod. as a fairly new player, I wanted to try a favored soul. I figured a favored soul half celestial would not only be a fun class, but a good intro into the divine spell lists. My DM has insisted that I play a cleric "because it is more fun". He says I need to branch out (last game i was a duskblade) since they are exactly the same. any thoughts/comments?

[Jølly]

Play what you want.

[Stupendous_Man]

My friends and I have begun a new game of D&d 3.5 and one of our homerules for the game is you have to have at least a +4 level mod. as a fairly new player, I wanted to try a favored soul. I figured a favored soul half celestial would not only be a fun class, but a good intro into the divine spell lists. My DM has insisted that I play a cleric "because it is more fun". He says I need to branch out (last game i was a duskblade) since they are exactly the same. any thoughts/comments?

Duskblades and Favored Souls are about as similar as apples and tangerines.

[Fax Celestis]

Tell your DM to go to the Nine Hells and play with someone who isn't going to force you into one role or another.

Alternatively, tell him you don't want to overshadow the whole damn party by yourself and intentionally chose a moderately weaker class so you wouldn't make the rest of your party useless.

[Lord Tataraus]

Well, with the "leave the game" and "do what you want" stuff out of the way here is my suggestion. First, ask him why he thinks you should go Cleric rather than Duskblade. If his says because they are too similar ask "how so?" and show him the classes side-by-side so he can see how they are different. Next, explain why a Favored Soul is better for your character concept than a Cleric. After that doesn't work, go with the "I'm going to do it anyway" stuff, it's not like the Favored Soul is overpowered compared to the Cleric, quite the opposite. However, one reason he might give is that "Clerics have better healing and the party needs a healer" in which case you point him in the direction of the Belt of Healing (that everyone has) and Wands of Lesser Vigor (which you and the rogue would be packing) for more than enough healing. If he still goes on about Favored Soul doesn't have enough healing, tell him to homebrew an extra ability if he thinks its so important.

[Devils_Advocate]

My DM has insisted that I play a cleric "because it is more fun".

Well, the obvious question here is whether he thinks it'll be more fun for you or more fun for him. And why he thinks that it'll be more fun for you if so, because if you told him you'd rather play a favored soul, that alone is pretty strong evidence that you'd have more fun with that.

Maybe he thinks that he's way more well-informed than you about how things will play out, but if he seriously thinks that Favored Soul is "exactly the same" as Duskblade, I'm guessing that he's overconfident about just how well-informed he is.

All that said, the cleric class might be better if you want to familiarize yourself with the cleric spell list, since as a cleric you can try out new spells every day. This also makes clerics harder to screw up, since you're not stuck with any poor spell choices you may have made.

[Vortling]

My friends and I have begun a new game of D&d 3.5 and one of our homerules for the game is you have to have at least a +4 level mod. as a fairly new player, I wanted to try a favored soul. I figured a favored soul half celestial would not only be a fun class, but a good intro into the divine spell lists. My DM has insisted that I play a cleric "because it is more fun". He says I need to branch out (last game i was a duskblade) since they are exactly the same. any thoughts/comments?

Find out why he thinks clerics are more fun. Once you know that you'll be able to tell if you should stick to your guns on the favored soul or give cleric a try. No matter which you go, don't get roped into healbotting unless you want to.

[ScionofImperius]

thanks for the help everyone! does anyone have any good suggestions/templates for a game like this? it is basically a monster hunting game.


(also, the dm didnt like me pointing out his Feral WereBear with its 38 strength)

[BobVosh]

Duskblades and Favored Souls are about as similar as apples and tangerines.

I'm going to go with apples and asparaguses(asparagusi? asparagus? Whatever the plural is). Sure they both appear similiar if you look at armor and spellcasting, but play nothing alike.

That said, I agree, clerics > favored soul, but each to thier own.

As for recommendations, I find that werid. He tells you what to play then you come here to be told what to play

Gotta give us more than that in order for us to tell you some fun ways to do what you want to do...like what you want to do.

[Stupendous_Man]

thanks for the help everyone! does anyone have any good suggestions/templates for a game like this? it is basically a monster hunting game.


(also, the dm didnt like me pointing out his Feral WereBear with its 38 strength)

Well, first you buy some partially charged wands...

[Keld Denar]

So, if he wants you to play a cleric, play one. Go zilla on him. Pull out DMM: Persist and walk around with both Divine Power and Righteous Might on, Power Attacking everything around you with impuny and making the fighter look like a chump.

Then, when he says "omg, the power level, its over 9000!" say, I have this really well built and balanced Favored Soul, would you like me to swap him out? Next time he tells you what character to play, answer with Drood20 and make sure he lets you play what you want.

[BobVosh]

Well, first you buy some partially charged wands...

Then you go monk and cross-class UMD....

[Stupendous_Man]

Then you go monk and cross-class UMD....

And grapple nasty things with a higher grapple modifier than yourself.

[BobVosh]

And grapple nasty things with a higher grapple modifier than yourself.

With a flurry in the same round as the grapple.

[Keld Denar]

With a flurry in the same round as the grapple.

Getting a little off topic there, but actually, you CAN flurry in the same round as a grapple. Flurry grants you extra attacks as long as you use special monk weapons. Your UAS, which is use to initate a grapple, is a special monk weapon. Thus, you can initiate a flurry to get the extra attacks, grab as your first attack, roll grapple, pin as your 2nd attack, roll grapple, grapple to inflict damage as your 3rd+ attacks. Check the rules on grappling with multiple attacks in a round. Its perfectly legal.

Now, get back on topic! RAWR!

[BobVosh]

Getting a little off topic there, but actually, you CAN flurry in the same round as a grapple. Flurry grants you extra attacks as long as you use special monk weapons. Your UAS, which is use to initate a grapple, is a special monk weapon. Thus, you can initiate a flurry to get the extra attacks, grab as your first attack, roll grapple, pin as your 2nd attack, roll grapple, grapple to inflict damage as your 3rd+ attacks. Check the rules on grappling with multiple attacks in a round. Its perfectly legal.

Now, get back on topic! RAWR!

Hmm, I thought grapple was a standard action, so unless you have improved grab etc you couldn't. I'm at work so I can't check SRD.

[Keld Denar]

Hmm, I thought grapple was a standard action, so unless you have improved grab etc you couldn't. I'm at work so I can't check SRD.

Nope.

Starting a Grapple
To start a grapple, you need to grab and hold your target. Starting a grapple requires a successful melee attack roll. If you get multiple attacks, you can attempt to start a grapple multiple times (at successively lower base attack bonuses).

The 3rd sentance pretty much spells it out exactly as I stated.

and follows

When you are grappling (regardless of who started the grapple), you can perform any of the following actions. Some of these actions take the place of an attack (rather than being a standard action or a move action). If your base attack bonus allows you multiple attacks, you can attempt one of these actions in place of each of your attacks, but at successively lower base attack bonuses.

Again, reference the last sentance in the quote. Successively lower base attack bonus.

Damage Your Opponent: While grappling, you can deal damage to your opponent equivalent to an unarmed strike. Make an opposed grapple check in place of an attack. If you win, you deal nonlethal damage as normal for your unarmed strike (1d3 points for Medium attackers or 1d2 points for Small attackers, plus Strength modifiers). If you want to deal lethal damage, you take a –4 penalty on your grapple check.

and

Pin Your Opponent: You can hold your opponent immobile for 1 round by winning an opposed grapple check (made in place of an attack). Once you have an opponent pinned, you have a few options available to you (see below).

Emphasis mine.

Thus, you can flurry into a grapple.

[BobVosh]

One would have done it, I don't know why but I read it as an attack option. Hence a standard action.

So improved grab is just if you feel like not going for touch ac, but still dealing damage? Not crazy better unlike I originally thought.

[Keld Denar]

So improved grab is just if you feel like not going for touch ac, but still dealing damage? Not crazy better unlike I originally thought.

No, Improved Grab is so you just attack per normal, and all of your normal hits that you would normally make to do normal damage all of a sudden have a free grapple attempt tacked onto them.

You don't have to decide ahead of time "gee, I think I'm gonna grapple this guy. Hmmmm, what do you think?" and if it happens, it happens. Essencially the same way Knockdown works. You just attack per normal, and if you hit and do more than 10 pts of damage, bam, trip attempt. Takes a lot of the risk out of it, because if you fail to trip your foe, you do no damage. Same with Imp Grab. Even if you fail to grapple, you've already mauled em up pretty significantly.

[Taffimai]

Back on the topic of the OP's last question, does the +4 need to come from a racial LA or can it be a template? If templates are good, I suggest half-celestial. It synergises nicely with a favoured soul, IMO.

[ScionofImperius]

So I need help once more. With a +4 mod, any kind, how do I make the most broken cleric ever? we will be level 7 with a plus 4 mod.

[Keld Denar]

So, you have 4 LA and 7 cleric levels? Or 4 LA and 3 cleric levels totalling 7?

Go Cloistered Cleric7 with Planning and Undeath domains, and swap out Knowledge domain for Knowledge Devotion (CChamp). This nets you Extend Spell and Extra Turning as bonus feats at 1. For your feats, take Persist Spell and DMM Persist at 1st level (assuming a human base on 1/2 celestial). Take Power Attack at 3rd, and Extra Turning again at 6th. This'll net you 11+cha turn attempts, enough to persist 2 spells if you have at least a 12 cha (which you should given 1/2 celestial's bonus to cha). If you have even higher cha, thats better. At 7th level, you get 2 spells to persist of 4th level or lower. I'd recommend Divine Power and then possibly Mass Lesser Vigor (gives whole party Fast Healing 1). You'll have a full BAB, +6 str, and a handful of temp hps. Use your Heavy Mace in both hands and Power Attack anything that moves. If you find yourself in combat without anything worthwhile to do at the moment, drop a Divine Power on yourself, for an extra +2 hit/dmg for the duration of the combat.

At level 9, change your persist spells to Divine Power and Righteous Might. You are now clericzilla. Watch out for falling rocks.

[icefractal]

You know, it's possible the DM is actually just being helpful. For a player who's new to divine spellcasting, a Cleric often is more fun, because they can reselect their spells each morning. That means if you pick some spells that aren't really working out, you can fix it by the next day, whereas the Favored Soul is stuck with those choices for at least a level, possibly more.

And as far as the advince to go "CoDzilla"? Maybe that's actually what the DM is looking for. If people are playing things like Feral Wereboars, the game might be on the high-powered end, and it's best to be at roughly the same optimization level as the group.

[Stupendous_Man]

You know, it's possible the DM is actually just being helpful. For a player who's new to divine spellcasting, a Cleric often is more fun, because they can reselect their spells each morning. That means if you pick some spells that aren't really working out, you can fix it by the next day, whereas the Favored Soul is stuck with those choices for at least a level, possibly more.

Course, he has teh forumz to guide him through spell selection...

[ShneekeyTheLost]

So I need help once more. With a +4 mod, any kind, how do I make the most broken cleric ever? we will be level 7 with a plus 4 mod.

I know why the GM insisted o na +4 mod... so no one gets 9th level spells. Sneaky of him, attempting to limit Batman Wizards like that...

Okay, here's what you do:

Cleric of Pelor. Take Sun and Healing domains. Take the PhB II variant "Spontanious Domain" and apply it to your Healing domain. This means little for now, but in a couple of levels, it means spontanious Heal spells. Now that you don't need to worry about having to memorise healing spells...

Feats:

1st: Extend Spell
3rd: Persist Spell
6th: DMM Persist.

DMM Persist Divine Might (4th level spell).

Win.

Even better,

next feat should be Extra Turning. Then at 10th, go into Radiant Servant of Pelor.

[Fiendish_Dire_Moose]

I know why the GM insisted o na +4 mod... so no one gets 9th level spells. Sneaky of him, attempting to limit Batman Wizards like that...

Okay, here's what you do:

Cleric of Pelor. Take Sun and Healing domains. Take the PhB II variant "Spontanious Domain" and apply it to your Healing domain. This means little for now, but in a couple of levels, it means spontanious Heal spells. Now that you don't need to worry about having to memorise healing spells...

Feats:

1st: Extend Spell
3rd: Persist Spell
6th: DMM Persist.

DMM Persist Divine Might (4th level spell).

Win.

Even better,

next feat should be Extra Turning. Then at 10th, go into Radiant Servant of Pelor.

If you choose to go Cleric, that. It grants you a free feat called, "Divine Metamagic, Win Button."

[Curmudgeon]

thanks for the help everyone! does anyone have any good suggestions/templates for a game like this? it is basically a monster hunting game.

Have your FS worship Kossuth (a Forgotten Realms deity), whose favored weapon is the spiked chain; or Lolth, and use a whip dagger. You get the following for free:

• Exotic Weapon Proficiency
• Weapon Focus
• Weapon Specialization (at level 12)

As far as the +4 LA, half-celestial is good (mostly because of the +4 to WIS and CHA (the two spellcasting attributes the FS needs), but it's neither the only choice nor the best value for +4 LA. (As with things like AC boosters, you get better value with a bunch of different low-value boosts than a single big boost.) You could start with Aasimar for +2 WIS and +2 CHA; that's only +1 LA. Then add other things that provide good value for the other (at least) +3. Mineral Warrior gives +3 NA, DR 8/adamantine, and stat boosts (though it'll reverse the Aasimar gains) for +1 LA. Lolth-Touched (Monster Manual IV pages 92-94) gives a lot for +1 LA: +6 STR, +6 CON, immunity to fear, and skill bonuses. Dark Creature is +1 and gives Extraordinary Hide in Plain Sight (still needing cover/concealment), +10' movement, and skill bonuses. Entropic Creature is a +2 LA template (Planar Handbook pages 122-124) that gives +2 CON, +2 CHA and automatic negative energy damage to any living creature within 10'. Voidmind Creature is a +3 template (Monster Manual III pages 187-189) that gives immunity to ability damage, ability drain, and energy drain; spell resistance; various stat boosts (though -2 CHA); and 3 feats. Half-dragon is +3 and provides some unique qualities like qualifying for Epic feats. Or if you expect to be in combat a lot, you could go for the half-troll template (Fiend Folio pages 93-94) for the +6 STR and fast healing 5 (though you'll take a hit on CHA: -2); it's +4 LA.

I think you'd surprise your DM if you came in with a Lolth-Touched Entropic Aasimar (total +4 LA) Favored Soul worshiping Lolth: outsider (extraplanar subtype); +6 STR, +8 CON, +2 WIS, +4 CHA; +4 Hide, +4 Move Silently, +2 Listen, +2 Spot; resistance to acid 5, cold 5, electricity 5, and sonic/fire (your choice) 5; immunity to fear; 60' darkvision; Daylight 1/day; Negative Energy Ray every 1d4 rounds; and automatic damage to living creatures within 10'. Plus whip dagger goodness (15' reach and tripping), and all the spells you can cast. With big boosts to STR and CON you're set for combat and can afford to really crank up your WIS and CHA for spellcasting power.

My guess is you'll have a lot of flying party members with +4 LA, so it should be easy for them to keep 10+ feet away from you. You'll threaten at 15' and do automatic damage to living enemies who get nearer than that. You might want some Winged Boots if you need to take to the air yourself.