Dragon in the Bag?

[StoryKeeper]

One of my players has a young(ish) black dragon as a cohort, which is fine because he's taken the necessary feats and run its stats by me. However, he wants to fit the (large?) dragon into a bag of holding and use it to get people to reach in and lose limbs.

Can someone tell me how much of this would be legal, and whether or not I should allow it.

[JackMage666]

Sure.. Let the Dragon get in the bag...
But don't forget that there's no air in the bag, and dragons need to breath...

[Mando Knight]

...He wants to send his dragon cohort into an aspect of the Astral Plane? (IIRC)
Wouldn't the dragon die after some time there?

[Krrth]

Probably not. The dragon wouldn't be able to breath when the bag was closed. Not to mention what would happen if it ever managed to puncture the bag....
If he really wants to do something like that, get a bag of devouring.

[JeminiZero]

Is it legal? Sure, provided the bag of holding is large enough to hold the dragon in the first place.

Should you allow it? Well, as far as I can tell, the player essentially gets a D&D equivalent of a pokeball. Except that if the bag is damaged the dragon is lost forever. It doesn't seem too broken to me, but your mileage may vary.

Sure.. Let the Dragon get in the bag...
But don't forget that there's no air in the bag, and dragons need to breath...

Including a bottle of air or a necklace of adaptation will take care of the air supply problem

[Gardakan]

It's legal but remembre there is a limit of air in the bag. So the dragon will die soon... let it do it but just apply the rule of the space...

[Darrin]

It's legal but remembre there is a limit of air in the bag. So the dragon will die soon... let it do it but just apply the rule of the space...

Necklace of Adaptation is pretty cheap (9000 GP), which solves the air problem. Bottle of Air (7250 GP) might also work, if a bit more annoying.

Add a Ring of Sustenance (2500 GP) and you don't even need to worry about feeding the dragon.

The remaining problems would be establishing is if the opening of the bag is large enough to allow a large creature to enter, and how would you handle an attack on a partially inserted limb.

The description of the bag doesn't mention any restrictions on the size of the items that can be inserted or even how large the opening can be stretched. Given there are no established rules, the DM can adjudicate that as he sees fit.

Attacking someone reaching into the bag... that's a whole nuther can of worms. I'd probably disallow it just on the principle that the rules could get a bit too fiddly. Does the person reaching in have 100% cover? Penalty for a called shot on the arm? The bag's description doesn't describe the size of the opening, the dimenions, or how far the dragon would need to reach from whatever he's standing on to attack whatever was being partially inserted into the bag. To keep things simple, I'd probably just say that anything that isn't entirely inserted into the bag is still "outside", and anything inside the bag can't interract with anything on the outside until it's been removed.

[goram.browncoat]

I dont see why that wouldnt work. Its exactly out of the box stuff like this that makes pen and paper rpgs more fun than rigidly defined computer games or board games.

Using it to attack people who reach into the bag seems horribly inefficient though. It seems like there would be more interesting things one could do with a dragon, especially if youve invested feats and stuff.

In one campaign I had a ressurected red zombie dragon in my bag of holding. I kept it with its head sticking out over my shoulder as a shoulder mounted flame thrower. When not in combat it only had its hand sticking out, laying on my shoulder as a sort of shoulderpad (purely for looks, no armor effect). Its fun when youre talking to the barkeep and your shoulderpad flexes its fingers.

[Kaiyanwang]

No air the bag -----------------> Dracolich

[Fcannon]

He could just fill the bag with water, Black Dragons can breathe in it.

[dspeyer]

I think the dragon may object. It's boring inside that bag. Draconic Steed is not Dominate Monster, nor does it provide a massive bonus to grappling with that steed. RAW specifies that a draconic steed will turn on its rider if abused, and black dragons aren't known for mercy.

It does raise the question, if you do get the dragon in the bag, will the bag's magic allow him to leave again under his own power?

[Texas Jedi]

I think the dragon may object. It's boring inside that bag. Draconic Steed is not Dominate Monster, nor does it provide a massive bonus to grappling with that steed. RAW specifies that a draconic steed will turn on its rider if abused, and black dragons aren't known for mercy.

It does raise the question, if you do get the dragon in the bag, will the bag's magic allow him to leave again under his own power?

I am of the mind that if you place it in the bag, you have to take it out of the bag. The item in question could not get out of the bag even if it is real. If that were the case I would rule anytime you turned it over all of the stuff would fall right out.

That and a dragon would never allow itself to be stuffed in a bag. Yeah a black dragon isn't very smart but they are very proud creatures that can't be treated like a pet.

Now if it was dominated then that is whole nother ballgame but just a consort wouldn't accept that type of treatment.

[AKA_Bait]

I have a recollection of some item called a 'familiar pouch' from someplace. Perhaps you could suggest he get an oversized one of these for his draconic friend?

Also, yeah, bag of devouring instead?

[Project_Mayhem]

Now if it was dominated then that is whole nother ballgame but just a consort wouldn't accept that type of treatment.

I believe you meant cohort? Consort implies an entirely different relationship

[Texas Jedi]

I believe you meant cohort? Consort implies an entirely different relationship

Darn fingers going faster than my brain could.

That and we don't know what type of game it is. Black Dragons can change shape and all.

[Burley]

There is a spell in... Complete Arcane or Mage, maybe... Anyways, it's called Familiar Pocket. You can make a wonderous item to that effect. The Familiar Pocket would keep the dragon safe and junk. Just don't let him use it as any other version of storing, and you'll be fine.

[newbDM]

One of my players has a young(ish) black dragon as a cohort, which is fine because he's taken the necessary feats and run its stats by me. However, he wants to fit the (large?) dragon into a bag of holding and use it to get people to reach in and lose limbs.

Can someone tell me how much of this would be legal, and whether or not I should allow it.

Three issues I see with this:
1. Breathing (as mentioned before).
2. A black dragon has very sharp claws and other pointy bits all over him. One poke of the bag's side equals one less scaly cohort.
3. What self-respecting black dragon (or any dragon) would allow himself to be used for such a silly and degrading parlor trick. Don't get me wrong, as a player who wished he had thought about it himself I love the idea, but no black dragon would lower himself to that, or trust his existence/safety to that extent to a mortal, even if he currently works for him (which itself would be degrading for a chromatic).

[newbDM]

...
Should you allow it? Well, as far as I can tell, the player essentially gets a D&D equivalent of a pokeball. ......

That Familiar Pocket spell from the Spell Compendium + Permanency + a round half-white/half-red ball =



Oh, and if the player wants to avoid the breathing problem, he could always get one of those bottle of infinite air. My artificer a few characters back had an effigy large-sized red dragon called Pucca, and he built a compartment inside Megazord style where he installed one of those inside. Once the other players needed to go somewhere fast, so I uninstalled the bottle, cracked Pucca's hatch open a bit, and told the other PCs to jump inside my type IV bag after handing one the bottle. It was hilarious, since the other players role-played it as though they were passing around a bong in there.

[valadil]

A type IV bag of holding is described as a 2x4 sack. A young adult dragon (you said youngish, so I'm assuming that means young adult) is large sized. Even if the volume of the bag is big enough for a dragon, the opening isn't. How does he plan on getting the dragon in and out of the bag?

[newbDM]

A type IV bag of holding is described as a 2x4 sack. A young adult dragon (you said youngish, so I'm assuming that means young adult) is large sized. Even if the volume of the bag is big enough for a dragon, the opening isn't. How does he plan on getting the dragon in and out of the bag?

Good point.

What about a portable hole?

[StoryKeeper]

A type IV bag of holding is described as a 2x4 sack. A young adult dragon (you said youngish, so I'm assuming that means young adult) is large sized. Even if the volume of the bag is big enough for a dragon, the opening isn't. How does he plan on getting the dragon in and out of the bag?

That was one of the first problems that occurred to me. I mean, I can see him fitting the head in, but once it got to his shoulders and wings, it seems like it would be a bit of a stretch.

When I asked how he was going to fit it his response was, "very carefully." I pressed him for more specifics and he says that because the creature is shaped like a dog (more or less), its dimensions should allow for it, but I'm not sure...

[newbDM]

That was one of the first problems that occurred to me. I mean, I can see him fitting the head in, but once it got to his shoulders and wings, it seems like it would be a bit of a stretch.

When I asked how he was going to fit it his response was, "very carefully." I pressed him for more specifics and he says that because the creature is shaped like a dog (more or less), its dimensions should allow for it, but I'm not sure...

Eh, seems a bit much. And again, how is he getting this dragon to agree to this?


As for fitting it in, maybe a modified Reduce Person spell could do the trick?

Or perhaps simply play the creator to make it bigger on the outside? But at this point, maybe just go for the portable hole, and place it inside a normal everyday sack (PHB, like 1sp) and tape/sew it open at the bottom?

[valadil]

That was one of the first problems that occurred to me. I mean, I can see him fitting the head in, but once it got to his shoulders and wings, it seems like it would be a bit of a stretch.

When I asked how he was going to fit it his response was, "very carefully." I pressed him for more specifics and he says that because the creature is shaped like a dog (more or less), its dimensions should allow for it, but I'm not sure...

I could see the dragon getting in the bag very carefully. I could not see it getting out quickly for combat. I'd treat the bag as a last ditch method for hiding the dragon.

If he's really adamant about it, training the dragon to get in the bag could be something that takes place over the entire campaign. Have them negotiate over it. Once they get the dragon in there but realize he can't get out easily, have them try reduce person. The dragon doesn't like being small though so he dispels himself as soon as he's bagged up. Give the player bag o' dragon by the end of the game, but make him work for it over the course of the game.

[Tacoma]

I think about game balance. Is it unbalancing to use Explosive Runes on a sheet of paper, crumple it up, and throw it at your enemy hoping he will read it?

Um, not really, because he won't read it. Because he knows YOU want him to read it. And things you want are bad for him. In what conceivable way is it good for him to read this note? Will it make him richer or more beautiful? No. But it just might blow up. Hence, no read.

In the same way, assuming the dragon gets in the bag and you fill the bag with water so the black dragon can breathe in there, who will put his hand in the bag?

Someone stupid.

And this person is probably not even a threat to the PCs if he gets all the way up there and the thing he does is stick his hand in the offered bag.

So whatever, it doesn't matter, because the player is soaking up both a powerful cohort and a powerful magic item just so he can use it to bite some flunky's hand once in a while.

I say let him do it.

EDIT: Even so, I'd give the dragon standard bite damage and ignore limb loss. I'd just say the dude's hand hurts.