Vampires and Werewolves

**EmperorSarda** · 2008-11-26, 01:18 PM (ISO 8601)

I have a question, I know that once a person becomes a vampire, they cannot be afflicted with diseases, and thus cannot become an undead werewolf, but can the same be held true for a werewolf who is turned into a vampire? Could that Werewolf(or were-creature) still retain his Were abilities as a vampire?

Also, what would the stats be for that? Or ideas for a Were-Vampire?

**Tsotha-lanti** · 2008-11-26, 01:36 PM (ISO 8601)

A lycanthrope built from a humanoid base creature is still a humanoid, and can become a vampire. There's no special rules or cases - the templates just stack, and the vampire-werewolf retains all special abilities, since the vampire template doesn't really remove anything.

**graymachine** · 2008-11-26, 01:37 PM (ISO 8601)

Depends. I don't have a book in front of me right now, but if you go look up vampire on the SRD you should get your answer. Werecreatures have the subtype "shapechanger." If I recall correctly, becoming a vampire changes your type to "undead", but not your subtype. Therefore, yes, a Werecreature can pick up the vampire template, although I would say that they would have to be a True Lycanthrope (ECL +3) instead of an Afflicted Lycanthrope (ECL +2), given the vampire's immunity to disease from undead traits. Still, it seems like it would be an awful waste for a PC as you're looking at about 12 to 17+ LA. Maybe a neat monster to fight, though.

[EDIT] It wouldn't work the other way, though, as only humanoids and giants can be made into lycanthropes, not undead. [/EDIT]

**Tsotha-lanti** · 2008-11-26, 01:46 PM (ISO 8601)

Yeah, disease immunity is completely irrelevant. Only living humanoids or giants can become lycanthropes. Giants can't become vampires, and monstrous humanoids can't become lycanthropes, so only a humanoid can become first a lycanthrope, then a vampire.

Of course, various other templates and DM fudging may change things up, but that's irrelevant to a rules discussion.

**graymachine** · 2008-11-26, 01:56 PM (ISO 8601)

Originally Posted by Tsotha-lanti

Yeah, disease immunity is completely irrelevant. Only living humanoids or giants can become lycanthropes. Giants can't become vampires, and monstrous humanoids can't become lycanthropes, so only a humanoid can become first a lycanthrope, then a vampire.

Of course, various other templates and DM fudging may change things up, but that's irrelevant to a rules discussion.

True. If I was building this as a monster to fight I would opt for racial HD rather than the straight up templates. Otherwise it would have absurdly low hp.

**hamishspence** · 2008-11-26, 02:08 PM (ISO 8601)

The easy way back into vampire, if creature started out non-humanoid is- half-troll for Giant type, then lycanthrope, then half-dragon, then Vampire Dragon. Voila- you can have almost any creature be both lycanthropic and vampiric.

I did this once as a thought exercise for Giant Slug, just to create a (very big) version of the monster in an OOTS strip in Dragon mag (you do need Fiendish to qualify for half-troll)

It may be silly monster, but I rather liked that strip.

**EmperorSarda** · 2008-11-26, 03:21 PM (ISO 8601)

Wait, there cannot be larger than medium sized vampires? A giant vampire would be awesome though.

**RTGoodman** · 2008-11-26, 04:02 PM (ISO 8601)

Originally Posted by EmperorSarda

Wait, there cannot be larger than medium sized vampires? A giant vampire would be awesome though.

Yep, as long as the base creature is a humanoid or monstrous humanoid.

Originally Posted by SRD

"Vampire" is an acquired template that can be added to any humanoid or monstrous humanoid creature (referred to hereafter as the base creature).

I'm not sure what the largest monstrous humanoids are, but that'd be the biggest vampire you could get.

EDIT: The largest of those two types in the SRD are Annis Hags, Minotaurs, Centaurs, all Large-sized Monstrous Humanoids.

**paddyfool** · 2008-11-26, 04:29 PM (ISO 8601)

A vampire centaur or minotaur just seems silly to me (and distinctly sub-CR as a challenge). However, if you heard that the ruler of, say, some subterranean group of Minotaurs had special abilities, you'd probably come loaded for caster rather than for undead if you wanted to take him on, so it could catch the PCs nicely by surprise.

**graymachine** · 2008-11-26, 04:36 PM (ISO 8601)

A barrear (sp?) would work better than a centaur. I don't think they are large size, but they do get SR equal to 11+HD.

**hamishspence** · 2008-11-27, 11:22 AM (ISO 8601)

True, the way I suggested was a bit cheesy, but a straight vampiric dragon could also be interesting.

I wonder whats the most unusual vampire you can get- one which started out as vermin?

As far as I can tell, using the Savage Species rules for what type overrides what, elementals, oozes, plants, etc can't be vampiric dragons (via half-dragon) because they don't change type.

but absent these rules, reading the "Type changes to dragon" bit literally in half dragon template, you could have pretty exotic vampires.

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