Unarmed Gestalt Build

[Eloel]

I'm planning to create a level 20 unarmed gestalt build. (I don't care how unoptimized this flavor can be) I don't want to shapeshift, nor do I want to use magic (magic items are OK, wizard/cleric is not).
So far, I'm thinking of Monk, Reaping Mauler and Swashbuckler, in no particular order. Any suggestions?

[Emperor Tippy]

Barbarian 1/Warblade 19// Non Psionic Thri-Keen 3/Monk 11/ Kensai 4/ Rogue 1/ Swordsage 1

Using the Lion Totem variant of the Barbarian for pounce.

EDIT: You can get 24 attacks at full AB at level 20.

[AmberVael]

Hmmm... Magic Items are okay?
How about throwing a Totemist (from Magic of Incarnum) on one side of the build? It would be totally stylish, and it would work nicely for an unarmed build in all kinds of ways.

^:

[Riffington]

Just do it as Sneak-attack Fighter + Monk.
Full-BAB + Flurry of Blows + 2-weapon fighting gives you lots of attacks without adding anything obscure. And each one gets sneak attack dice. Lots of them.

[Eloel]

Barbarian 1/Warblade 19// Non Psionic Thri-Keen 3/Monk 11/ Kensai 4/ Rogue 1/ Swordsage 1

Using the Lion Totem variant of the Barbarian for pounce.

EDIT: You can get 24 attacks at full AB at level 20.

Names of sources would help...

[Jack Zander]

Barbarian 1/Warblade 19// Non Psionic Thri-Keen 3/Monk 11/ Kensai 4/ Rogue 1/ Swordsage 1

Using the Lion Totem variant of the Barbarian for pounce.

EDIT: You can get 24 attacks at full AB at level 20.

How many times this week has a question about gestalt monks come up and you've spouted this build, Tippy?

[Emperor Tippy]

Lion Totem Barbarian: Complete Champion
Warblade and Swordsage: Tome of Battle (which also has a bunch of feats you will want to take).
Non-Psionic Thri-Keen: Monster Manual 2
Kensai: Complete Warrior

[Emperor Tippy]

How many times this week has a question about gestalt monks come up and you've spouted this build, Tippy?

That one? None. Replace the warblade levels with Fighter and I've posted it twice. But Warblade is much nicer.

[Eloel]

Lion Totem Barbarian: Complete Champion
Warblade and Swordsage: Tome of Battle (which also has a bunch of feats you will want to take).
Non-Psionic Thri-Keen: Monster Manual 2
Kensai: Complete Warrior

Can Kensai make his -all- Unarmed Strikes signature weapon?
As a race, I'm happy with Humanoids.
I've never been able to understand stances properly, would you mind summarizing them?
Wouldn't Bear Totem work better than Lion Totem?

[Emperor Tippy]

Can Kensai make his Unarmed Strikes signature weapon?

Yes. The whole point is to get a Speed fist for the extra attack.

As a race, I'm happy with Humanoids.

Meh, they suck. Not enough attacks.

I've never been able to understand stances properly, would you mind summarizing them?

When you are in a stance (which takes a swift action and then you are in the stance until you decide to change it) you gain the benefits it lays out.

Wouldn't Bear Totem work better than Lion Totem?

No, you want pounce so that you can move and still be able to get a full attack.

[Eloel]

I don't have complete champion, but isnt
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/cl...mClassFeatures
the Lion Totem you're talking about? I see no pounce there...

[Emperor Tippy]

I don't have complete champion, but isnt
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/cl...mClassFeatures
the Lion Totem you're talking about? I see no pounce there...

No, the complete champion variant. Trade the barbarians increased movement speed for Pounce.

[Human Paragon 3]

I don't have complete champion, but isnt
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/cl...mClassFeatures
the Lion Totem you're talking about? I see no pounce there...

Nope. Complete Champion has a different Lion Totem barbarian. One that inexplicably gains pounce at level 1. Most people consider it somewhat cheesy, but it's a pretty standard optimization tip to dip a level for it.


Ninjad.

[Eloel]

What stances/maneuvres do you suggest?

[Emperor Tippy]

Balance on the Air for Swordsage. Your IL is high enough thanks to Warblade. It gives you continuous Air Walk (as the spell). And your Rogue level let's you qualify for Craven so you don't really need Assassin's Stance.

[Eldariel]

I'd probably replace the Monk-levels with two levels of Monk, some Unarmed Swordsage and Shadow Sun Ninja, but otherwise Tippy's build is sound. Although Kensai seems wasteful if Necklace of Natural Attacks is allowed - it's basically standard-priced weapon enhancements for Unarmed Strikes. Of course, you'd be fine as a Human too - just a tad weaker. Still, you can get:

-Whirling Frenzy (pick up Extra Rage or two to actually make use of it)
-Greater Flurry
-Snap Kick
-Haste
-Two-Weapon Fighting
-Raging Mongoose
-Time Stands Still

for a total of (4+2+1+1+1+3+2)*2=28 attacks. I'd probably suggest Telflammar Shadowlord [Unapproachable East]/Crinti Shadow Marauder [Shining South] if available and going for Shadow Pouncer - you get a nice number of Shadow-movement abilities from Shadow Hand and once you're finished, you can Shadow Blink > Full Attack, Shadow Jaunt > Full Attack and Shadow Stride > Full Attack in the same round - so 3 full attacks in a turn using a pattern you can repeat an arbitrary number of times (although you need a turn to recoup the maneuvers; you could use the Marauder/Shadowlord abilities or items for extras though). Since your full attack contains 12 attacks, you'll easily do 36 on high levels. Just pimp out your Unarmed Strike size and you should be dealing the prerequisite few thousand damage per turn against poor AC opponents - add that ability to your Unarmed Strike which heals you half the base weapon damage dealt with every strike and you'll be rockin'.

[Demons_eye]

Kensai unamred need more exp for more then one unamred strike IE: 4 fist 250% exp needed I think.

[Emperor Tippy]

Kensai unamred need more exp for more then one unamred strike IE: 4 fist 250% exp needed I think.

Speed doesn't stack. So you only need to enchant 1 natural attack/fist.

[Demons_eye]

It would only work on one fist then

[Emperor Tippy]

It would only work on one fist then

Which is all you want. You gain no benefit from more than 1 speed weapon.

[Demons_eye]

When making a full attack action, the wielder of a speed weapon may make one extra attack with it. The attack uses the wielder’s full base attack bonus, plus any modifiers appropriate to the situation. (This benefit is not cumulative with similar effects, such as a haste spell.)

Would only work with the one fist all other 3 fist dont get it.

[Emperor Tippy]

Would only work with the one fist all other 3 fist dont get it.

Yes. And having 2 speed weapons in the first place doesn't let you make 2 extra attacks. No matter how many weapons you wield and no matter how many of them are speed weapons you only get 1 extra attack at your full AB by virtue of speed, not one per weapon.

[wadledo]

I would like to throw out an Ethereal Filcher/Monk//Unarmed Swordsage using the Oncoming Storm and Coin’s Edge Disciplines.
At level 20, I could have gotten 72(I think) attacks per round.
And that's not even including any serious optimization.

[Demons_eye]

Dosent matter I reread the entry if you enchant one you do it to all and have to play for it so 140% for hands.

[Keld Denar]

Gravetouched Ghoul2(LM p103)/Hexblade4/Marshal2/Blackguard10/Kensai2//Fighter2/Warblade4/DreadCommando5/Warblade9

Feats of interest. Power Attack, Cleave, Imp Sunder (prereqs), Ability Focus(Paralysis), Dreadful Wrath (or Frightening Presence), Rapid Strike, Improved Rapid Strike, Divine Might, Craven, and maybe Combat Brute since you already have Imp Sunder. Oh, and Improved Init :)

Manuevers of interest
Pouncing Charge, Xing Mongooses, Sudden Leap, Anything else?

Features of interest
Dark Companion (PHBII), revised Hexblade (WotC site)

Stats
Cha > Str > Dex > Wis > Int

Your primary weapon is going to be your claws, but you can also bite. You can stealth around at full speed, even in Mithril Full Plate if you want. When you engage foes, you'll win initiative with your MASSIVE init modifier (9 + dex + cha). Move your Dark Companion over them (-2 everything), Hex them (-2 to AC and saves) and then initiate Pouncing Charge. Since its a charge, it triggers Dreadful Wrath, incuring another -2 to AC and saves. You'll get full attacks with both claws thanks to Improved Rapid Strike. You can PA a bit if you want, and definite use Divine Might. That means 9 claw attacks if you include Haste (Boots of Speed?), and a bite. Thats 10 chances for you foe to be paralyzed. Your DC should be very high, since its a function of your HD, your +cha modifier, and all of the penalties you've stacked on them from Dark Companion, Hex, Dreadful Wrath, and Aura of Dispair. Oh, and you also took Ability Focus(Paralysis) for another 2. IF for some reason your foe isn't either dead from the damage or paralysed for 1d4+1 rounds, you can follow up by boosting Raging Mongoose and making 14 attacks, all with bonus PA damage from Momentum Swing (Combat Brute). Sure, its not crazy 2handed PA damage, but meh.

Oh, and defences are all right too, you have the normal gambit of Undead Immunities, plus cha to saves twice (Hexblade and Blackguard are very different abilities), Mettle, Blackguard spellcasting (meh), and a couple other features.

So, what do you think of my ghoulish delight? Don't be fooled by the 1d4 claw damage, this guy is lethal!

[jcsw]

Dosent matter I reread the entry if you enchant one you do it to all and have to play for it so 140% for hands.

You could enchant your head with speed and you would still get the extra attack cause you're also "wielding" your head. There's no mechanical difference if you do this, and you only pay 110%.

[RMS Oceanic]

On the speed issue, isn't there a Quarterstaff in the Epic Level Handbook - which has been issued with 3.5 errata, so I think we can consider it - that has both ends of it enchanted with speed, and it says you gain an attack with each end? I couldn't find anything in its entry to denote this was only because it was an epic item.

[Adumbration]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned improving the unarmed strike damage yet. Get Improved natural attack, three levels in Fist of the Forest, 10 in Initiate of Draconic mysteries, maybe Psychic Warrior for Expansion, and you're all set for massive damage.

[jcsw]

More attacks tends to have a batter damage output.

(Although, combining both has the best.)

[Hida Reju]

I happen to like the Kensai but I think just going with an "Amulet of Natural attacks" from Savage species is best.

It acts like any other item for enchanting your unarmed attacks with like a +3k price tag in the begining I think. So you can have +5 fists of doom with +5 bonuses.

Otherwise I would fit all 10 lvls of Kensai in there if you are not going to hunt this item down and make it yours.

Also do you plan to take Monk up to lvl 20? If not then Superior unarmed strike out of Tome of Battle adds 4 to your effective monk lvl for hand to hand damage. Improved natural attack increases the size of the dice as if your size went up one category. Also Snap Kick from Tome of battle allows one extra unarmed attack per full attack.