Dragon gestalt

[Squider]

Has anyone read the "Evil dragons as a class" from one of the dragon magazines?

My DM's going to be running a gestalt game, except we won't be able to choose the second half of our classes, it will be dragon 1-20.

Each of us will be playing a Different color chromatic dragon, we've got five players, so one of each. (We're going to be the chosen of Tiamat, or something)

What I'm asking is, does anyone have any idea's for party makeup? Are there any items, classes, feats, that would be particularly useful to dragons. We've got access to pretty much any spalt book out there. Odds are this campaign will go right from level one to twenty, and maybe into epics.

[RTGoodman]

Get Draconomicon. It's got all SORTS of goodies for Dragons, including a slew of feats that'll make you awesome. Metabreath feats especially.

[monty]

Remember that once you become Old (level varies depending on the dragon type), you qualify for epic feats, regardless of HD. Use that to your advantage.

[BobVosh]

Remember that once you become Old (level varies depending on the dragon type), you qualify for epic feats, regardless of HD. Use that to your advantage.

1. Find a ghost.
2. Let it stomp you with age
3. ????
4. Profit!!

[monty]

1. Find a ghost.
2. Let it stomp you with age
3. ????
4. Profit!!

The thing is, dragons age by hit dice, not just time. A red dragon isn't Old until 28 HD, for example. A dragonwrought kobold is much easier though, and can get it from level 1.

[The Glyphstone]

3.5 ghosts don't have the ability to age things anyways. :(

[Fan]

Venerable Dragonwrought Kobold!
There now your a Dragon, are above old age, and have awesometastic epic feats.
Also you cna have up to a 23 int.

[hamishspence]

I figure the Old Age bit only applies to True dragons, most of which have more than 20 HD so qualify for epic feats anyway.

[Darrin]

Has anyone read the "Evil dragons as a class" from one of the dragon magazines?

My DM's going to be running a gestalt game, except we won't be able to choose the second half of our classes, it will be dragon 1-20.

Each of us will be playing a Different color chromatic dragon, we've got five players, so one of each. (We're going to be the chosen of Tiamat, or something)

What I'm asking is, does anyone have any idea's for party makeup? Are there any items, classes, feats, that would be particularly useful to dragons. We've got access to pretty much any spalt book out there. Odds are this campaign will go right from level one to twenty, and maybe into epics.

Try Totemist 20//[evil] Dragon 20.

Totemist is the gawd of natural attacks, and dragons have quite a few of those. As a true dragon, you already qualify for draconic soulmelds (Dragon Magic p. 82-85), but most of those will wind up duplicating features/abilities you already have.

What you may discover with the dragon PC classes is most of the really nasty stuff (such as breath weapons and spellcasting) doesn't come into play until much much later. A red dragon, for example, doesn't get a breath weapon until ECL 10, and only gets 1st level sorcerer spells at ECL 19. So pretty much anything on your other half of the gestalt is going to be more impressive than your dragon half. For most of the game, the most your dragon half is going to give you is a bunch of d12 HPs and some natural attacks.

Something else you might want to keep in mind... the weaker dragons (white, black) are going to get their full abilities quicker than the stronger dragons (red, blue). Also, your feats are determined by your hit dice, not ECL, so you don't always get them at 1st/3rd/6th/9th/etc.

Draconomicon probably isn't going to help much. The dragon-specific PrCs aren't available until your BAB/skills reach epic levels.

Feats: Improved Natural Attack and flight-related feats (fly-by attack) might help to start with. Metabreath feats, particularly entangle, are definitely worth it, but unless you get a breath weapon on your non-dragon side they may not be much help until the later ECLs.

Warlock 20//Dragon 20 or Dragonfire Adept 20//Dragon 20 is tempting, in which case most of your feats should be invocation-related.

The strongest build is still [full caster] 20//Dragon 20, particularly when your dragon half supplies massive HPs, the best saves in the game, and full BAB. Int and Cha appear to scale up identically, but wizards get their spells a level earlier than sorcerers... whichever you prefer should work fine. Cleric or druid might be unnecessary... you won't need divine powah with your dragon BAB and HPs, and anything you could wildshape into as a druid isn't likely to measure up favorably to your natural form.

[Siegel]

Where is Dragonwrough Kobold from ?

[RTGoodman]

Where is Dragonwrough Kobold from ?

Races of the Dragon. It's a feat that makes Kobolds better and opens up all sorts of options for them.

[hamishspence]

I would say, however, that the rules for epic feats (Must be 21st level) override the rules for dragons- (Dragons of Old or older age can take epic feats) for PCs and NPCs.

[Emperor Tippy]

I would say, however, that the rules for epic feats (Must be 21st level) override the rules for dragons- (Dragons of Old or older age can take epic feats) for PCs and NPCs.

Specific trumps general.

The general rule is that you have to have 21 HD to take epic feats. The specific rule is that dragons can take epic feats if they are old age or older.

[hamishspence]

Specific rule in a supplement, compared to general rule in the DMG.

[Darrin]

I would say, however, that the rules for epic feats (Must be 21st level) override the rules for dragons- (Dragons of Old or older age can take epic feats) for PCs and NPCs.

Won't work for the OP. The dragon PC classes he is using from Dragon #332 don't go anywhere near the Old category. ECL 20 Red and Blue dragons are "Young". ECL 20 Green, Black, and White are "Juvenile". And you can't really use dragonwrought here because true dragons are not kobolds.

[hamishspence]

problem is- kobold have a dragon-type aging progression listed in Races of the Dragon- Wyrmling to Great wyrm. combined with Dragonwrought, people assume that dragon type plus dragon aging guarantees it will work.

EDIT:
The phrasing in Draconomicon was- "Dragons of at least old age can choose epic feats even if they have no class levels"

But, a kobold, even a dragonwroght kobold- has class levels- its an NPC, not a Monster- and NPCs don't get access to epic feats until their ECL is 21.

[Keld Denar]

Go with one of the weaker dragons, like White or Green. Go full caster. Play like a Gish.

Use Scintilating Scales to jack up your touch AC. Use Wraithstrke to turn all of your natural attacks into touch attacks. Use Blood Wind? To make all of your natural attacks at a range increment of 20' (full attack at 100' for only a -10 penalty!). Take Power Attack. Take Rapid Strike (DCN) and Improved Rapid Strike (DCN) with both your claws and wings.

Your damage will be staggering.

[only1doug]

Party of dragons;

Breath specialist: Dragonfire adept gaining a breath weapon useable each round in addition to the racial breath weapon. this character could focus on meta-breath feats (pg 25 Dragon magic)

Gish: wizard or sorcerer (strongest choice)

Healer: may be possible to play without one (full BAB and plenty of HPs). discuss.

Monk: - actually worth considering, with dragon on the other side of the gestalt the monks weaknesses are partially cancelled. Take a PRC as soon as possible.

Tank: you'll all be able to fill this role, you are dragons.

Rogue / skillmonkey: pick locks, disarm traps? will your party need this role? can the Gish just negate the necessity by casting? would you rather have them along?

[Emperor Tippy]

problem is- kobold have a dragon-type aging progression listed in Races of the Dragon- Wyrmling to Great wyrm. combined with Dragonwrought, people assume that dragon type plus dragon aging guarantees it will work.

EDIT:
The phrasing in Draconomicon was- "Dragons of at least old age can choose epic feats even if they have no class levels"

But, a kobold, even a dragonwroght kobold- has class levels- its an NPC, not a Monster- and NPCs don't get access to epic feats until their ECL is 21.

even if is the important phrase.

[Fenix_of_Doom]

Party of dragons;
Healer: may be possible to play without one (full BAB and plenty of HPs). discuss.

Still somebody could die or get a disease or ability damage that needs healing, also a barbarian has HD 12 and they still need healing, besides that I wouldn't pass up the chance to play a cleric dragon, you could become a melee monster and heal people when you feel like it.

[hamishspence]

given neither Dragonwrought nor the Kobold Aging Progression had been written then, its a matter of a loophole, it would be a big surprise to me if they wrote the kobold class that way to take advantage of this on purpose.

Same would apply to a 50 year old Half-dragon anything. Has dragon type, is at least Old age- Old is that age category. You say to DM that as a 1st level Old half-dragon (or 1st level Old Dragonwrought Kobold) you qualify for epic feats- watch the laughter.

[monty]

given neither Dragonwrought nor the Kobold Aging Progression had been written then, its a matter of a loophole, it would be a big surprise to me if they wrote the kobold class that way to take advantage of this on purpose.

Same would apply to a 50 year old Half-dragon anything. Has dragon type, is at least Old age- Old is that age category. You say to DM that as a 1st level Old half-dragon (or 1st level Old Dragonwrought Kobold) you qualify for epic feats- watch the laughter.

Isn't the entire point of optimization abusing loopholes?

And half-dragons don't have dragon age categories, so they wouldn't qualify. Normal old isn't the same as dragon old (note that kobolds hit dragon old before they even reach normal middle age).

[hamishspence]

someone will probably say- The words used were Dragon, and Old. Its a dragon (type) and its age is Old...

another book (Player's Guide to Faerun stated an unwritten in DMG, but important, prerequisite for all epic feats was Must Be at least 21st level. And that was written after Draconomicon.

[Emperor Tippy]

given neither Dragonwrought nor the Kobold Aging Progression had been written then, its a matter of a loophole, it would be a big surprise to me if they wrote the kobold class that way to take advantage of this on purpose.

Same would apply to a 50 year old Half-dragon anything. Has dragon type, is at least Old age- Old is that age category. You say to DM that as a 1st level Old half-dragon (or 1st level Old Dragonwrought Kobold) you qualify for epic feats- watch the laughter.

*shrug*
I would let them. None of the epic feats that they actually qualify for are massively abusive. It helps out melee types but all of the caster ones have Spellcraft ranks as a prerequisite that keeps you from qualifying pre-epic.

[hamishspence]

Dire Charge, Spellcasting Harrier, the three save-boosting feats?

though for mysterious reasons, Dire charge-like abilities seem to have proliferated over lifetime of 3.5

[Emperor Tippy]

Dire Charge, Spellcasting Harrier, the three save-boosting feats?

though for mysterious reasons, Dire charge-like abilities seem to have proliferated over lifetime of 3.5

Dire Charge: Pounce that you can only use in the first round of combat. Lot's of better ways to get pounce.
Spellcasting Harrier: Help's melee, not casters. And isn't overly powerful.
Save Boosts: They don't stack and they are what their non epic counterparts should have been. Again, not really helpful to casters.

The real powerful epic feats have requirements that can't be met pre epic.

[monty]

What Tippy said. Basically, the only epic feats they can take make non-casters suck less.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Do you have to all make different Chromatic dragons, or would you possibly be able to pick different dragon varieties? There are quite a few dragon choices that are much better than any Chromatic dragon, namely the Shadow Dragon from the Draconomicon or the Steel Dragon.

[jcsw]

All make dragonfire inspiration bards.

You technically don't have the dragonblood subtype, but I'm sure you can convince your DM that dragons can take it too. Also convince your DM to have each of your dragonfire inspiration match your element types (it dosen't by RAW... oO) without having to take the Draconic Heritage Feat.

Now at level one you all have +5d6 damage to each of your natural weapons. Of various element types.

Each one can then branch off into different types of bards.
1. Melee Build. Try to get as many natural attacks as possible to maximize the bonus damage from dragonfire inspiration. Ask your DM if he'll let snowflake wardance work with natural attacks.
2. Spellcaster. There's a template in Dragon 313 which makes the Dragon cast as a wizard instead. You may wanna look into that.
Knowledge Devotion (Complete Champion) would also help.
3. Dedicated Buffer. Maximize your bard abilities. Look into Heartfire Fanner prestige class (Dragon 314) which will let your music grant your allies bonus feats. Depending on what level you're starting at, you can even put heartfire fanner over your sorc casting instead.
4. Healer. As a dragon you can cast cleric spells (IIRC.) take advantage of that. There's a bard song Alternate Class Feature which adds your ranks of perform into the caster of all healing spells in the area. Take advantage of your one level dip into bard and start healing like mad.
5. I dunno. Try a party face.