Easiest way to make a Paladin Fall

[Eloel]

Use tripping attack :)

[ChaosDefender24]

saw it coming, was going to say "grease" if this joke wasn't already made

[elliott20]

serious answer: a kobayashi maru situation

[Tempest Fennac]

What is that situation, elliott20?

[Vagnarok]

Omg you're terrible.

By Kobayashi Maru do you mean the Kirk thing?

[Learnedguy]

serious answer: a kobayashi maru situation

Nah, I wouldn't make a Paladin Player fall if it's a no-win scenario. As long as he did what the thought best and just, that's all that there is to it.

They are paladins, not Jesus.

[Tengu_temp]

Kobayashi Maru is a scenario where you cannot win - all the answers are wrong, some just less wrong than the others.

And if a world is idealistic enough to have paladins, then it means that there are no Kobayashi Maru scenarios in it - every scenario has an answer that lets the paladin both do good and keep his powers if he looks hard enough. That's something some DMs forget about.

[elliott20]

Yeah, it's the Kirk thing.

for those of you who don't get the reference:

kobayashi maru is a space ship in Star Trek that was used as a training exercise for cadets. the cadets are placed in a simulation where they get a distress signal from a stranded ship named the Kobayashi Maru stranded in Klingon (and later Romulan territory). Klingon ships will arrive soon and destroy the ship. If the cadet responds to the call and goes to save them, they break the treaty they have with the klingons and cause an intergalactic war. However, they cannot simply abandon the ship to it's fate. And no, there is no way you can outfight the Klingon ships because of fire power.

It's basically your typical un-winnable situation. And at every turn, the only way one could EVER come out of the kobayashi maru situation on top is to cheat the system.

While I too don't believe that you should punish a paladin for being put in an impossible situation, it never fails me to see how often this situation crops up in discussions. And now *I* have been the one to start that discussion... Dear twelve gods, what have I done?!? *commits seppuku*

[Tempest Fennac]

Thanks for explaining (I agree that making a Paladin fall in that situation would be unacceptable).

[Ramidel]

Yeah. I'd make a Paladin go through a measure of atonement for this (if nothing else, Paladins tend to think of themselves like Miko thinks of other people), but not "lose powers until atonement" unless the paladin is tardy in atoning. The deities who have Paladins will be the deities who can accept that there was no good option.

[Vorpal Soda]

As I understand, a Paladin falls when the source of their power (Either a diety, or the very concept of lawful-goodness itself) decides that they have crossed the line, and now need their power removed as a form of damage control.

Therefore there should be no situations that merely facing would cause a paladin to fall, otherwise your source of divine power is basically declaring "How dare you have enemies that open a portal to hell that can only be sealed by killing a baby? You shall do no more in my name until you see the error in your ways!".

Of course, why a portal to hell requires baby sacrifice to close, and why there's a baby there for you to sacrifice, and how the paladin knows that sacrificing the baby closes the portal instead of increasing it's strength and size as you'd probably expect, isn't something I've ever heard explained, because we all know the real reason why.

[Quirinus_Obsidian]

The Paladin would go all Vulcan and say: 'The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few" and leave the K/M to the Klingons/Romulans/whoever the bbeg is. Sucks, but it happens.

I recently had K/M type issue in one of my groups. The choice was to sacrifice a loved one to save Faerun. Well, it did not work out too well. Sacrificing oneself does not work in that situation.

[Tengu_temp]

The Paladin would go all Vulcan and say: 'The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few" and leave the K/M to the Klingons/Romulans/whoever the bbeg is. Sucks, but it happens.

That's not a paladinish way of thinking, and the best way to ensure a fall. A real paladin would look for a third option, one where he can save everyone.

[averagejoe]

Kobayashi Maru is a scenario where you cannot win - all the answers are wrong, some just less wrong than the others.

And if a world is idealistic enough to have paladins, then it means that there are no Kobayashi Maru scenarios in it - every scenario has an answer that lets the paladin both do good and keep his powers if he looks hard enough. That's something some DMs forget about.

Why does a world have to be idealistic to have paladins?

[Neithan]

I think it's hard to make a paladin fall. To make something fall-worthy, I think it has to be the paladins deliberate choice to act like he does, even though he wouldn't need to.
Cowardice would make him fall, not doing a suicide attack wouldn't.
Accusing an evil major of false crimes would make him fall, denying to know where the rescued children are hidden would not.
Stabbing a cowering goblin would make him fall, killing a charmed person in self-defense wouldn't.

When a Paladin does fall, it's either because he didn't care, or because he thought it a worthy price to pay.
But I can't think about situation where both acting and not acting would make a paladin fall.

[Learnedguy]

That's not a paladinish way of thinking, and the best way to ensure a fall. A real paladin would look for a third option, one where he can save everyone.

Agreed. As a Paladin you got a legitimate argument why you should pierce through the heaven and break through the unbreakable and fight the power.

The reason is that you're just that awesome.

...

Assuming you play a LG Paladin right that is. Most people don't seem to get it I'm afraid

[Tengu_temp]

Why does a world have to be idealistic to have paladins?

Because if a world is cynical enough that situations where no matter what happens, a paladin who encounters them falls are common, then this class wouldn't exist there.

[Neithan]

Ah I see. This is a black and white problem.

Nothing is ever "either-or". Everything's in the middle ground.

[averagejoe]

Because if a world is cynical enough that situations where no matter what happens, a paladin who encounters them falls are common, then this class wouldn't exist there.

But that's hardly an idealistic world. I would argue that in real life those sorts of situations (don't make me spell it ) don't come up very often anyways.

[Hal]

All kidding aside, it shouldn't be an easy thing for a Paladin (or any divine caster) to fall. As the DM, unless you've worked out with the player ahead of time that this is a plot device, you shouldn't be throwing situations at the paladin with the intent purpose of making him fall. That's a situation that starts "My DM is a jerk" threads here.

If your player is heading down that road, you need to talk to them about it before you make them fall. Ask them why they're acting like a sociopath if they wanted to play the paragon of LGness.

And as I said, any character who gets their powers from divine sources should be able to fall. A cleric of Pelor who kills babies is going to lose his power, and that druid probably shouldn't be wearing metal gear. Although, it never made sense to me that someone who reveres nature can kill animals and wear their skins, but a mineral which came right out of the earth is itself bad.

Oh well.

[Learnedguy]

But that's hardly an idealistic world. I would argue that in real life those sorts of situations (don't make me spell it ) don't come up very often anyways.

Real world statistics stops mattering once the DM slides the scale of Cynicisms to Idealism right up into crapsack

[MeanJoeSmith75]

The only way to truly make a Paladin fall is the conscious choice. Put him in a situation where he knows the BBEG is guilty, but the only way to prove it is to lie/fabricate evidence. Its the classic Superman/Lex Luther situation. Except Superman doesn't lose his powers if HE goes medieval on Lex's legal holdings.

[hamishspence]

"doing evil" (and Breaking Code) is the Kryptonite of paladins- must be expunged from the body before powers come back

[The Glyphstone]

Do we seriously need three Paladin threads going simultaneously?

[Vorpal Soda]

Opinions may differ on this, and in any game it's the DM's decision, but if I was DMing, I'd rule that fall-or-die and fall-or-fall situations would be fundamentally impossible, since if all possible options are evil, and you therefore had no choice, then you haven't willingly commited an evil act, and therefore do not fall. I'd also rule that unwilling failure isn't grounds for falling either.

So I could run a non-idealistic setting and have Paladins in it just as easily as I could have good aligned clerics in the setting, and I wouldn't have to actually contradict the rules to do so, just take the most merciful interpretation possible.

[Samurai Jill]

That's not a paladinish way of thinking, and the best way to ensure a fall. A real paladin would look for a third option, one where he can save everyone.

Right, and while he's looking up his own ass for this miraculous solution which will somehow rewrite interstellar politics for his own convenience, everybody aboard the imperilled ship will die.
I'm sorry folks, but the universe is not always going to conform to your neat expectations of no-lose situations.

[Tengu_temp]

Right, and while he's looking up his own ass for this miraculous solution which will somehow rewrite interstellar politics for his own convenience, everybody aboard the imperilled ship will die.
I'm sorry folks, but the universe is not always going to conform to your neat expectations of no-lose situations.

As I said previously:

And if a world is idealistic enough to have paladins, then it means that there are no Kobayashi Maru scenarios in it - every scenario has an answer that lets the paladin both do good and keep his powers if he looks hard enough. That's something some DMs forget about.

[Zeful]

Right, and while he's looking up his own ass for this miraculous solution which will somehow rewrite interstellar politics for his own convenience, everybody aboard the imperilled ship will die.
I'm sorry folks, but the universe is not always going to conform to your neat expectations of no-lose situations.

That's not what Tengu meant. The third option is the Good option, not no-lose. Paladins can't fall from failing the good option, but the can fall from not seeing it.

[hamishspence]

there is the "failure to try and save people isn't evil" option of assessing alignment. you have the lives of all the people on your own ship to worry about, plus the lives of all the people who will die if you start a war.

Parallel would be any passenger ship, swept into the territorial waters of a very hostile (but not at war with yours) state. I suspect most warship captains nearby in international waters, hearing radio message from sinking ship, would grit their teeth and bear it (probably after radioing for permission first and getting it denied)

[Samurai Jill]

As I said previously:

I know- it's a non-answer. The only world where that will happens is a world where paladins aren't needed in the first place, because lemon gumdrops fall as rain and all sharp corners are padded with candy-floss. It's absurd.