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Thread: [3.5] More Paladin Building
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2008-12-01, 12:32 AM (ISO 8601)
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[3.5] More Paladin Building
I'm joining a 3.5 game and I've been looking to refine this paladin build I found on the WOTC boards.
Originally Posted by Dran_DraggorLast edited by Archpaladin Zousha; 2008-12-01 at 12:36 AM.
"Reach down into your heart and you'll find many reasons to fight. Survival. Honor. Glory. But what about those who feel it's their duty to protect the innocent? There you'll find a warrior savage enough to match any dragon, and in the end, they'll retain what the others won't. Their humanity."
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2008-12-01, 12:46 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [3.5] More Paladin Building
I would assume you'd build level 1 cleric, then go all 6 paladin (due to paladin's multiclass restrictions) and then so on. Your feats are all lined up level by level, as are your class abilities. Seems incredibly cut and dry. Your paladin and templar spells are just little added extras and your Fist of Raziel / Cleric level is what is going to give you the bulk of your magical abilities. In the end, you'll have plenty of low level heals and good bulk of fighting prowess as well as spell casting might. Focus on buff spells as you're predominantly a warrior class and have your paladin/templar spells be memmed for cure light and such for after battle or for stabilizing injured characters. Religion really depends on what game world you'll be playing on. I'd recommend a longsword or a bastard sword really, depending on your god choices. Or greatsword if you're not using a shield (as a paladin, I really recommend the sword and shield combo). If you can, select a deity with access to the War and Glory domains for some bad ass spells. Tactically, get yourself in the thick of things where you belong and be the group tank.
Enjoy your munchkin.
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2008-12-01, 12:50 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [3.5] More Paladin Building
Hieroneous it is, then! Should I just use the longsword, or should I try to convince my DM to allow me to use a battleaxe (Hieroneous's original favored weapon)?
"Reach down into your heart and you'll find many reasons to fight. Survival. Honor. Glory. But what about those who feel it's their duty to protect the innocent? There you'll find a warrior savage enough to match any dragon, and in the end, they'll retain what the others won't. Their humanity."
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2008-12-01, 12:56 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [3.5] More Paladin Building
Never mind, I saw your reccomendation of longsword.
Isn't being a munchkin essential to make a paladin in 3.5 that doesn't suck?"Reach down into your heart and you'll find many reasons to fight. Survival. Honor. Glory. But what about those who feel it's their duty to protect the innocent? There you'll find a warrior savage enough to match any dragon, and in the end, they'll retain what the others won't. Their humanity."
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2008-12-01, 01:37 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2008
Re: [3.5] More Paladin Building
Well, there are a few things that seem a bit off to me...
-Starting with Cleric 1. He lists Turn Undead twice, once as a cleric, once as a paladin. I'm not entirely sure it works like that...if it does, you essentially have a large battery of Turn Undead attempts to burn through with those feats. The other benefits aren't so great...the domains could be good for their powers, but without knowing what they are, I can't say.
-Which leads to the True Believer feat. True Believer lets you qualify for certain powerful artifacts as determined by your god. Note that second part, it's important. Without telling us the god, or what items it needs, I'm left in the lurch about it. If you're really thinking of taking it, run it by your DM and see if he's okay with it.
-The Underdark Knight substitution features requires paladin levels to function, from my understanding of the book it comes from [Complete Champion]. Thus, he wouldn't get any of the abilities that you would get for level 7 on up, because he's a paladin for 6 levels and no more. Maybe he's relying on Fist of Raziel levels to stack with paladin for that purpose, but I don't think it works that way.
Other than that, it's as Errant said; just add water, and heat. Instant paladin.Character Roster:
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2008-12-01, 02:46 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [3.5] More Paladin Building
I also don't like the 1 level cleric dip. It just doesn't add enough for the hit to BAB. I'd rather skip the 1 cleric and 3 pious templar levels and take 4 levels of Ordained Champion (Complete Champion). Granted, this doesn't give you the ability to spontaniously cast war domain spells, but all of the other features work well. You can use Divine Might AND OrdChamp's Smite AND your Paladin Smite at the same time.
Plus, this gets you out of having to take Blech True Believer. Its really a crappy feat unless you KNOW your DM is gonna give you a relic. Otherwise BLECH.
Final build would be: Paladin4/OrdainedChamp4/Fist10....??? You could take 2 more levels of Paladin, or I dunno...Doesn't really matter.
If you REALLY want to get snazzy, you could do something like Paladin5/Fighter2/Divine Crusader1/OrdainedChampion4/Fist8. With the Charging Smite ACF from PHBII. This gets you 2 domains, one of which is War, up to 9th level casting (get a neato one like Travel for mobility spells. Kelanan(A Hero God) from Greyhawk has both War and Travel, favored weapon ANY SWORD. The Lord of Blades has sword and will travel. You qualify for Ordained Champ from Pal4 (gives you Magic Weapon as a divine Spell) and Weapon Focus double qualifies you for OrdainedChamp and Divien Crusader.
Divine Crusader is in Complete Warrior or Divine, forget which atm. I could give you a more detailed breakdown of each build if you were interested. I also have a little somethin somethin that is KINDA paladiny, but comes in a more Dwarfy flavor. Lemme know if that interests you as well.
Hmmmm, this is like, my 3rd Divine Crusader build in a day. I guess I like this class.
EDIT: Turn Undead from two seperate sources does NOT add extra uses per day. You add up your effective level for each class and add them together.
Paladins get TU at 4th, and calc at Pal-3, Clerics get it at 1 and count full. Thus, a Paladin10/Cleric10 would turn as a 17th level cleric. Thats all that means, he still only has 3+cha turns per day, unless modified by items or feats.
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2008-12-01, 08:16 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [3.5] More Paladin Building
Does Kelanen have paladin followers? The DM requires me to have any books I use approved by him. And I was under the impression that all the bonus classes from Complete Champion were weak, given that it was judged as an overall poor book.
"Reach down into your heart and you'll find many reasons to fight. Survival. Honor. Glory. But what about those who feel it's their duty to protect the innocent? There you'll find a warrior savage enough to match any dragon, and in the end, they'll retain what the others won't. Their humanity."
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2008-12-01, 08:55 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [3.5] More Paladin Building
My Work:
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2008-12-01, 09:16 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [3.5] More Paladin Building
And the Ordained Champion has what exactly?
"Reach down into your heart and you'll find many reasons to fight. Survival. Honor. Glory. But what about those who feel it's their duty to protect the innocent? There you'll find a warrior savage enough to match any dragon, and in the end, they'll retain what the others won't. Their humanity."
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2008-12-01, 10:52 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [3.5] More Paladin Building
OC is a 5 level PrC from Complete Champion. It has 3/5 spellcasting progression at levels 1, 3, and 5. At level 1, you get War as a bonus domain, or add War to your spell list if you normally don't get domains (IE, not clerical type caster, although Divine Champion would get the domain). Its jam packed full of neato abilities, including the ability to burn turn attempts to smite foes, spontaneously cast spells from the war domain (if you could spontaneously heal or inflict), the ability to burn spell slots for DR/Chaotic, and a channel spells ability that functions kind of like a Spell Storing weapon, and to cast any spell from a War domain slot as a swift action (autoquicken).
Its basically a millitant devoted soldier of either Heironeous or Hextor (who are brothers) who can trade their normal divinely granted skills for holy offensive power. The fluff could easily be rewritten for any strongly lawful god if you aren't playing in Greyhawk or core. Tyr or Helm come to mind for FR, and the Silver Flame in Ebberon would work.
Its kind of strong, although its full potential lies in the hands of a nearly full caster cleric, and the only REAL abuse out of it is if its combined with Ruby Knight Vindicator from ToB:Bo9S (fluff contrast) because you can basically burn all of your turn attempts and all of your 5th level+ spell slots to cast like, 20 Flame Strikes in a round, although with recent ToB FaQ answers, RKV's Divine Impetus is only useable once a round, so its only 2 flame strikes a round if you go by the FaQ.
Combining OC with Divine Crusader is kind of a nerf to OC, since you can't use ~3 of the abilities you get from it, but its so chock full of useful abilities that its still worth it. The fact that you lose 2 caster levels doesn't actually matter for Divine Crusader, since by finishing it with FoR, you still get 10/10 DC casting by level 20 which grants 9th level spells.
I guess in hindsight, Kelanan wouldn't be a good god, since review of his fluff here dictates that he is True Neutral, and actually very against the 4 dooms (Law, Chaos, Good, and Evil). Thus a LG alignment wouldn't be legal for a follower of the Lord of Swords, since as a divine caster, you can't be more than 1 alignment deviation from your diety. Thats too bad, though, because having War and Travel tacked onto Divine Crusader casting progression would be pretty awesome. Unfortunately, most of Big H's domains are pretty lackluster. Glory might be decent, giving you access to the spell Holy Sword, but Good, Inquisition, and Law wouldn't be tremendously helpful in your case. Mayaheine might be a good alternative, the ascended paladin daughter of Pelor. Same stuff and fluff as Big H, but more obscure and more cool. You'd have to get OC blessed for her though, since its technically not allowed by RAW. As long as you are looking for a god Pholtus might be a decent alternative, although still no Travel domain. And crap, Pholtus doesn't have War, which kind of goes against the flavor of OC. Saint Cuthbert is another pretty paladiny god, although again no War domain. Does get Str domain which allows you to cast Enlarge Person, which is nice though. Al Akbar also accepts paladins, but no War domain, and not even any very good domains. Gah, all paladin gods have the same freakin domains. If you don't mind a little bearded love, Moradin has the Earth domain, which is kind of fun, although sadly still no War.
Gah, looks like its the Big H, or Pelor's Paladin daughter Mayaheine if you want to go Ordained Champion.
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2008-12-01, 11:08 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [3.5] More Paladin Building
Actually, Ordained Champion-casting is 2, 3 and 5. That's what makes it interesting. Ordained Champion best lends itself to (Cloistered) Cleric 4/Ordained Champion 5 - the BAB falls nicely and you get better casting that way.
In flavour, it's a Paladin of H, basically. Really, I can't find any relevant difference between Ordained Champion and Paladin other than Ordained Champion is more in-line with the Big 3's power, and Paladin has a horse.Campaign Journal: Uncovering the Lost World - A Player's Diary in Low-Magic D&D (Latest Update: 8.3.2014)
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2008-12-01, 02:27 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [3.5] More Paladin Building
If I remember correctly Ordained Champions can only worship either Heironeous or Hextor, so it looks like I'd have to worship the Big H anyhow. Who are the Big 3?
And if I were to build this with Ordained Champion levels instead of Cleric and Pious Templar levels, how would I go about that?"Reach down into your heart and you'll find many reasons to fight. Survival. Honor. Glory. But what about those who feel it's their duty to protect the innocent? There you'll find a warrior savage enough to match any dragon, and in the end, they'll retain what the others won't. Their humanity."
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2008-12-01, 02:43 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [3.5] More Paladin Building
Yea, the fluff of OC is only for Heironious or Hextor (brothers and opposite sides of the lawful good/evil coin). Like I said though, its just fluff, and pretty easy to shift to anothe god of similar LG or LE zeal.
As far as build? Just like I posted
Pal1 Open Feat
Pal2
Pal3 Power Attack
Pal4
Pal5
Ftr1 Divine Might/Weapon Focus: Longsword (or Battle Axe with old aspect)
Ftr2 Open Feat (Fighter Bonus only)
DC1
OC1 Awesome Smite (Complete Champ feat)
OC2
OC3
OC4 Law Devotion
FoR1
FoR2
FoR3 Open Feat
FoR4
FoR5
FoR6 Open Feat
FoR7
FoR8
For your open feats, pick something that appeals to you. Open for customization. I believe all of your OC levels and FoR levels should advance your Divine Crusader spellcasting.
Ends with Full BAB, 9th level spells in 2 domains (I'd do War and Glory) and really nice smiting. Awesome Smiting is a tactical feat from Complete Champion that lets you do neato stuff with your smites, like penetrate DR, or knock people down. Good stuff.
EDIT: Big 3 are Wizard, Cleric, Druid, the most commonly cited most powerful classes in the game.
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2008-12-01, 02:46 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [3.5] More Paladin Building
I see. Thank you! I'll see what I can do with this.
"Reach down into your heart and you'll find many reasons to fight. Survival. Honor. Glory. But what about those who feel it's their duty to protect the innocent? There you'll find a warrior savage enough to match any dragon, and in the end, they'll retain what the others won't. Their humanity."
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2008-12-01, 03:19 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [3.5] More Paladin Building
Where should I insert Servant of the Heavens? That's a requirement for the FoR.
"Reach down into your heart and you'll find many reasons to fight. Survival. Honor. Glory. But what about those who feel it's their duty to protect the innocent? There you'll find a warrior savage enough to match any dragon, and in the end, they'll retain what the others won't. Their humanity."
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2008-12-01, 03:28 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [3.5] More Paladin Building
First level?
Campaign Journal: Uncovering the Lost World - A Player's Diary in Low-Magic D&D (Latest Update: 8.3.2014)
Being Bane: A Guide to Barbarians Cracking Small Men - Ever Been Angry?! Then this is for you!
SRD Averages - An aggregation of all the key stats of all the monster entries on SRD arranged by CR.
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2008-12-01, 03:37 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [3.5] More Paladin Building
Any where it says Open Feat. Those are feats that I couldn't think of anything atm to put in em. Take whatever you want.
I'd recommend using your long sword 2handed. You get a better return on PA that way. You could always carry a shield with you if you need the extra AC. Law Devotion and Divine Shield could crank your AC up pretty respectably, but I'd get an Animated Shield at some point. Otherwise, wield 2handed and use your bonus to hit from Smite and Law Devotion to fuel your Power Attack for big numbers.
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2008-12-01, 08:18 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [3.5] More Paladin Building
I see. I'll keep both builds in mind and double-check my books when I get home after finals. I should have all the books both these builds require.
"Reach down into your heart and you'll find many reasons to fight. Survival. Honor. Glory. But what about those who feel it's their duty to protect the innocent? There you'll find a warrior savage enough to match any dragon, and in the end, they'll retain what the others won't. Their humanity."
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2008-12-01, 11:26 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [3.5] More Paladin Building
I might be a bit biased, but I like my build better than his. He loses a point of BAB, and cleric1 is a pretty anemic way to start adventuring if you are going to start at 1. Also, he splits his casting up. While he ends up with 5th level cleric spells and 2nd level paladin spells, and 1st level paladin spells, I get full 9th level casting from 2 domains. A couple 9th level spells are better than a handful of mediochre mid level spells.
Most people over on CharOps are pretty convinced that a single level of cleric is about the best dip known to man though. I just hate seeing it hanging there providing nothing but domains.
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2008-12-01, 11:57 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [3.5] More Paladin Building
I see. To be honest I don't know if I'll be starting at one. I'll end up missing the first month or so of sessions, since the game's here in La Crosse, and I'm going home to Hastings for the holidays.
I do like your build though. It's more focused than the other one.Last edited by Archpaladin Zousha; 2008-12-01 at 11:57 PM.
"Reach down into your heart and you'll find many reasons to fight. Survival. Honor. Glory. But what about those who feel it's their duty to protect the innocent? There you'll find a warrior savage enough to match any dragon, and in the end, they'll retain what the others won't. Their humanity."
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2008-12-02, 12:08 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [3.5] More Paladin Building
La Crosse eh? I used to game with a guy there named Gary Sarver. He used to do a LOT of coordinating with Living Greyhawk in the game. Cool guy too. I don't have his contact info, though he shouldn't be hard to look up. I don't know how interested in 4e you are, but he probably still does a lot of coordinating with the new Living Realms campaign. Great guy though, will bend over backwards to get you into a game if you are interested.
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2008-12-02, 12:29 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [3.5] More Paladin Building
Not sure if I've met him. I'll check next time the LFR group I've joined meets.
"Reach down into your heart and you'll find many reasons to fight. Survival. Honor. Glory. But what about those who feel it's their duty to protect the innocent? There you'll find a warrior savage enough to match any dragon, and in the end, they'll retain what the others won't. Their humanity."
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2008-12-02, 03:39 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [3.5] More Paladin Building
Was wondering something. Would it work to swap the open feat at 1st level with Power Attack? I don't think I can take Servant of the Heavens at level 1, and that's a required feat for FoR.
"Reach down into your heart and you'll find many reasons to fight. Survival. Honor. Glory. But what about those who feel it's their duty to protect the innocent? There you'll find a warrior savage enough to match any dragon, and in the end, they'll retain what the others won't. Their humanity."
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2008-12-02, 07:45 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [3.5] More Paladin Building
What are the requirements for Servant Of The Heavens anyway (aside from a Lawful Good alignment?)
"Reach down into your heart and you'll find many reasons to fight. Survival. Honor. Glory. But what about those who feel it's their duty to protect the innocent? There you'll find a warrior savage enough to match any dragon, and in the end, they'll retain what the others won't. Their humanity."
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2008-12-02, 08:05 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [3.5] More Paladin Building
Crystalkeep is your friend!
Originally Posted by Crystalkeep
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2008-12-02, 08:30 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [3.5] More Paladin Building
Still, I think it'd make more sense to swear fealty to Raziel after I've established myself as an adventurer a little.
"Reach down into your heart and you'll find many reasons to fight. Survival. Honor. Glory. But what about those who feel it's their duty to protect the innocent? There you'll find a warrior savage enough to match any dragon, and in the end, they'll retain what the others won't. Their humanity."