Warmage PrC question

[D Knight]

As the title i have question about a prc for a warmage. the reason is i am currently playing a warmage in to different games and was looking for any prc that would help once i got passed 8th.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

There are 2 routes with a Warmage if you're PrCing. The first is boosting your current spells, through Incantrix or others. This makes your one-dimensional blaster a really good one-dimensional blaster. The other is boosting your spell list, through things like Sand Shaper, Voyeuristic Seer, or Rainbow Servant. Which do you want(though both are possible if you're really good)? Also, what is your build up until now?

[D Knight]

my current bulid so far is.this guy is in a true dungon crawl, what i have is what i got plus any item i pick up. Due to a hint from my DM my next feat is transdiminsional spell comp divine. books are core, comp series, all MM and feind book, but i may be able to ask the Dm for more books.
lv 5 human warmage
str 12
dex 15
con 16
int 16
wis 11
cha 18
feats:
lighting ref
spell fouces (evo)
greater spell fouces (evo)

i am trying to be the heavy artilery that weakens up the baddies for the tank.

[Morandir Nailo]

Try to get the War Mage PrC from Dragonlance: Age of Mortals allowed. I don't remember the requirements, but it's a 5-level PrC that allows you to add +3 damage per die to spells at 5th level. You can use your Cha mod to boost your allies' AC as well, IIRC. Good stuff.

Mor

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

At 6 get Versatile Spellcaster from Races of the Dragon instead of Transdimensional spell. That will allow you to cast Orb of Force, which already has a 100% chance of affecting incorporeal and ethereal targets.

[D Knight]

i am not sure that my DM will get the Dragonlance books but i will try and see. anyway do you have a link to the prc.

why should i get Versatile Spellcaster over Transdimensional spell they both do the same thing.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

why should i get Versatile Spellcaster over Transdimensional spell they both do the same thing.

Versatile Spellcaster allows you to spend two spell slots to cast a spell of the next higher level. At level 6 you'll be able to spend two 3rd level spell slots to cast a 4th level spell, for example, and being a Warmage you'll automatically know every spell you'd be able to cast.

Transdimensional Spell is a +1 level metamagic feat that gives a spell a 100% chance of affecting Incorporeal targets, instead of the usual 50% chance of affecting them. Force effects like Magic Missile, Wall of Force, and (Lesser) Orb of Force already have a 100% chance of affecting incorporeal targets anyway, so there's no need to use Transdimensional Spell on them. Since you can spontaneously cast those types of spells anyway, Transdimensional Spell is even more of a wasted feat than it is on any other spellcaster.

[The Glyphstone]

Versatile Spellcaster allows you to spend two spell slots to cast a spell of the next higher level. At level 6 you'll be able to spend two 3rd level spell slots to cast a 4th level spell, for example, and being a Warmage you'll automatically know every spell you'd be able to cast.

Admittedly, this relies on a somewhat questionable interpretation of RAW - don't expect your DM to necessarily let this slide. Versatile Spellcaster is still a far better feat than Transdimensional Spell for the reasons noted, but don't be counting on it to give you access to spells you technically can't cast yet.

[PurinaDragonCho]

It doesn't work, but not because of the way Versatile Spellcaster is worded.

When a warmage gains access to a new level of spells, he automatically knows "all the spells for that level" listed on the warmage spell list. So a warmage doesn't know ANY 4th level spells until he hits 8th level.

[UserClone]

That is not "somewhat questionable," it is absolutely ludicrous. Versatile Spellcaster says nothing about letting you cast higher spells than you otherwise could, and if Wizards bothered with errata for their 3.5 stuff, it would explicitly forbid such lunacy.

[Rad]

Try to get the War Mage PrC from Dragonlance: Age of Mortals allowed. I don't remember the requirements, but it's a 5-level PrC that allows you to add +3 damage per die to spells at 5th level. You can use your Cha mod to boost your allies' AC as well, IIRC. Good stuff.

Mor

That has been errataed in the subsequent books of the dragonlance series though.

[RMS Oceanic]

Incantrix 10, Arcane Thesis(Your chosen BLOW IT ALL UP spell), Rapid Spellcasting (Complete Mage, eliminates Spontaneous Metamagic Lag).

Have fun.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

That is not "somewhat questionable," it is absolutely ludicrous. Versatile Spellcaster says nothing about letting you cast higher spells than you otherwise could, and if Wizards bothered with errata for their 3.5 stuff, it would explicitly forbid such lunacy.

It doesn't work, but not because of the way Versatile Spellcaster is worded.

When a warmage gains access to a new level of spells, he automatically knows "all the spells for that level" listed on the warmage spell list. So a warmage doesn't know ANY 4th level spells until he hits 8th level.

Admittedly, this relies on a somewhat questionable interpretation of RAW - don't expect your DM to necessarily let this slide. Versatile Spellcaster is still a far better feat than Transdimensional Spell for the reasons noted, but don't be counting on it to give you access to spells you technically can't cast yet.

First of all, WotC has confirmed that a Sorcerer with Versatile Spellcaster and a metamagic feat such as Heighten Spell can indeed spend two of his highest-level spell slots to cast a spell one level higher than he would otherwise be able to cast. This is how it was intended to work. Spontaneous casters are ahead in spells/day but behind in gaining the next level of spells. Normally one character level behind in the next level of spells, but with this feat you're effectively one level ahead in gaining the next level of spells, so it is not absurdly unbalancing. You pay two of your highest level spells for a spell one level higher, which you probably won't be able to do more often than twice in one day and then you'll be out of your highest level spell slots too. At odd-numbered character levels the prepared casters are equal in highest level spells and better off in highest level spells/day.

Second, "When a warmage gains access to a new level of spells, he automatically knows all the spells for that level listed on the warmage’s spell list." Having Versatile Spellcaster gives him access to a new level of spells, therefore he automatically knows all the spells for that level listed on his class spell list.

[PurinaDragonCho]

So how exactly does a sorcerer "know" any spells of a level higher than he can cast? How does Versatile Spellcaster rework the spells known chart? You may be right, but I'm HIGHLY skeptical.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

So how exactly does a sorcerer "know" any spells of a level higher than he can cast? How does Versatile Spellcaster rework the spells known chart? You may be right, but I'm HIGHLY skeptical.

Sorcerer spells known aren't affected by it, but Warmages automatically know every spell on their list of every level they can cast. That means a 6th level Warmage with Versatile Spellcaster knows all the 4th level spells on his class list, because he's able to cast 4th level spells thanks to the feat.

[The Glyphstone]

First of all, WotC has confirmed that a Sorcerer with Versatile Spellcaster and a metamagic feat such as Heighten Spell can indeed spend two of his highest-level spell slots to cast a spell one level higher than he would otherwise be able to cast. This is how it was intended to work. Spontaneous casters are ahead in spells/day but behind in gaining the next level of spells. Normally one character level behind in the next level of spells, but with this feat you're effectively one level ahead in gaining the next level of spells, so it is not absurdly unbalancing. You pay two of your highest level spells for a spell one level higher, which you probably won't be able to do more often than twice in one day and then you'll be out of your highest level spell slots too. At odd-numbered character levels the prepared casters are equal in highest level spells and better off in highest level spells/day.

Second, "When a warmage gains access to a new level of spells, he automatically knows all the spells for that level listed on the warmage’s spell list." Having Versatile Spellcaster gives him access to a new level of spells, therefore he automatically knows all the spells for that level listed on his class spell list.

Source for this confirmation? The Sage does not count, nor does CustServ, as neither of them know their elbows from their elbows, or any other part of their body from their elbows for that matter.

otherwise, it's circular logic - VS gives you access to 4th level spells, which lets you know 4th level spells, which lets you use VS on 4th level spells, which gives you access to 4th level spells...

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Source for this confirmation? The Sage does not count, nor does CustServ, as neither of them know their elbows from their elbows, or any other part of their body from their elbows for that matter.

otherwise, it's circular logic - VS gives you access to 4th level spells, which lets you know 4th level spells, which lets you use VS on 4th level spells, which gives you access to 4th level spells...

Can a sorcerer combine Versatile Spellcasting with a
metamagic feat to cast a spell whose level is higher than the
level of spells he’d normally be able to cast?
This is possible. For example, a 1st-level sorcerer using the
Versatile Spellcaster feat can give up two 1st-level spells to
cast extended shield.

Furthermore, the game checks for thing like ability to cast a given level of spells in theory rather than in practice. For example, a Wizard X/ PrC Y who has spent all of his spells for the day does not lose access to his prestige class, even though he no longer meets its prerequisite in practice until he rests and regains his spells. Just the same, a Warmage with Versatile Spellcaster can cast the next level of spells for purposes of game mechanics. That means he has access to that level of spells, and knows all the spells on his class spell list of that level.

[Kaiyanwang]

Incantrix 10, Arcane Thesis(Your chosen BLOW IT ALL UP spell), Rapid Spellcasting (Complete Mage, eliminates Spontaneous Metamagic Lag).

Have fun.

Seconded. Aaaand.. try the alternative class feature from PHII if you can find some spell you couln't cast but could be useful for your role.

[PurinaDragonCho]

... it's circular logic - VS gives you access to 4th level spells, which lets you know 4th level spells, which lets you use VS on 4th level spells, which gives you access to 4th level spells...

Agreed. It obviously wasn't intended that this feat be used for this purpose. It was designed to let a caster get more use out of their lower level spells, not to give you the ability to cast spells you couldn't otherwise cast at your character level.

I can't imagine telling any DM I've played with that I intend to use this feat that way - not with a straight face, anyway. None of them would allow it. As DM, I *might* allow it... but the party would suddenly be fighting a lot of Warmages with the Versatile Spellcaster feat.

[D Knight]

i have permision to use any andd all books that we have. which is basicly all the books out there. so please keep the suggestions coming.

[mabriss lethe]

So how exactly does a sorcerer "know" any spells of a level higher than he can cast? How does Versatile Spellcaster rework the spells known chart? You may be right, but I'm HIGHLY skeptical.

They don't. but they can use it as a means to pay off metamagicked high end spells.

[Hida Reju]

The question to ask yourself is what are you trying to accomplish with your Prc?

Sniper - Spellwarp sniper is fun for ray spells.
Improved meta magic - Incantrix has already been mentioned.
More spell choices - Sand shaper gives them the least painfully
Bigger Booms - War Wizard of Cormyr(magic of Farun) lets you apply a few meta magics for free to increase the size and range of your spells.
More BAB - Eldritch Knight from DMG, you basicly can get a BAB of 15 at the cost of one caster lvl but that is about all you get out of it.
Archmage - Feat crazy but doable, it does give you some crazy options. I point out that Spell focus: Envocation and Conjuration lose you little in the long run since high DC's never hurt.

To be honest you do not lose much taking Warmage to 20, it lets you add a few spells to your spell list, gives you some bonus feats that are honestly limited in scope but still have uses at times.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

You could take one level of Wizard or Wu-Jen and go into Ultimate Magus from Complete Mage. Take either Arcane Preparation or Precocious Apprentice to meet the prepared spellcasting prerequisites.

[D Knight]

what book is Precocious Apprentice in. i have seen this feat said afew times and i am wondering what makes it so special

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Complete Arcane. It gives you one second level spell, castable once per day with a caster level check at first level. Good at low levels, weak once you actually get second level spells(at which point it becomes an extra spell known/spell slot) but it makes entering the Mystic Theurge and similar PrCs really really easy.

[Kaiyanwang]

The question to ask yourself is what are you trying to accomplish with your Prc?

Archmage - Feat crazy but doable, it does give you some crazy options. I point out that Spell focus: Envocation and Conjuration lose you little in the long run since high DC's never hurt.

For the Archmage could be useful take spell focus in schools AND planning to take feats useful for combos wich have SF has prereq (I see that the space for metamagic start o disappear this way )

To be honest you do not lose much taking Warmage to 20, it lets you add a few spells to your spell list, gives you some bonus feats that are honestly limited in scope but still have uses at times.

Right.