[3.5]Which one is likelier to keep a lv1 rogue alive. +1 AC or +2 Hide/Move Silently?

[newbDM]

So I am deciding my new level 1 kobold rogue's second feat, and I am debating with myself which option would be likelier to help keep him alive. The Improved Natural Armor feat from the MM1, or the Stealthy feat from the PHB 1 which gives one +2 to Hide and Move Silently checks.

Does +1 AC really make a difference at all? And a bonus to Hide and Move Silently seems like it is very situation dependent.


The crazy chicken wielding little bugger only has 8hp, and it has been a while since I have started at level 1.

Also, the DM will be doing pure modules (much to my dismay) if that makes a difference.


Any advice would be greatly appreciated!

[xPANCAKEx]

i'd consider both feats a bit sub-optimal. Something like improved initiative will pay-off far more in the long run (especially as a rogue) - you'll soon have better armour/skills

if its just for a one-shot or something, then i guess out of those two i'd go with stealthy. Just be very selective about what battles you pick though

[newbDM]

i'd consider both feats a bit sub-optimal. Something like improved initiative will pay-off far more in the long run (especially as a rogue) - you'll soon have better armour/skills

if its just for a one-shot or something, then i guess out of those two i'd go with stealthy. Just be very selective about what battles you pick though

Well, he plans on making it a long "campaign" using module after module.

I just want to make sure this guy/thing gets past lv.1.

[Behold_the_Void]

Neither feat is particularly good, so I'd definitely go with something else.

[Telonius]

Of those two, +1AC. The chicken is going to ruin your move silently anyway.

[Curmudgeon]

For my first two feats as a Rogue I'd pick Improved Initiative, because going first may prevent unexpected demise; and Weapon Finesse, so you can hit more often in melee.

[Nerd-o-rama]

Going first also means you get to Sneak Attack more, so Improved Init. is great for rogues.

[xPANCAKEx]

Weapon Finesse, so you can hit more often in melee.

only if you use certain weapons, and its not available at 1st level... so sadly its off the list

[KeresM]

Depends more on how you play your character. Are you going to be stealthing in at every opportunity, avoiding combat? Or are you going to be moving through the thick of melee?

[Eldariel]

On the first level, you should use a bow anyways - the AC isn't that important since you shouldn't be the guy getting hit. Hide and Move Silently would give immediate reward (as you'll be scouting and would rather not be seen), but they'd suck later when you make your checks anyways so I wouldn't take that either.

[Severus]

Here's another vote for improved initiative. It's valuable from 1 to 20. Going first never gets old.

[Stupendous_Man]

So I am deciding my new level 1 kobold rogue's second feat, and I am debating with myself which option would be likelier to help keep him alive.

Option C: Chant "Pazuzu" and have him get you a Candel of Inocation

[Fax Celestis]

Would Luck of Heroes be an option? +1 Luck AC, +1 luck to all saves.

[xPANCAKEx]

Would Luck of Heroes be an option? +1 Luck AC, +1 luck to all saves.

certainly is more of a contender - but as with many +save feats it feels weaker as you level up.

[newbDM]

The chicken is going to ruin your move silently anyway.

Damn, I completely forgot about that.

For my first two feats as a Rogue I'd pick Improved Initiative, because going first may prevent unexpected demise; and Weapon Finesse, so you can hit more often in melee.

He has the natural weapons variant from the Web Enhancement for Races of the Dragon. He has a bite and two claws, so I was originally going to take Weapon Finesse. However, it turns out rogues do not get a BaB of +1 until level two.

Depends more on how you play your character. Are you going to be stealthing in at every opportunity, avoiding combat? Or are you going to be moving through the thick of melee?

Well, he is going to be quite cowardly. He is a kobold after all, and a Kobolds ate my Baby like one to boot. I do not plan to have him in the thick of combat, but I am thinking he will mostly try to help with sneak attacks (probably after hiding).

On the first level, you should use a bow anyways - the AC isn't that important since you shouldn't be the guy getting hit. Hide and Move Silently would give immediate reward (as you'll be scouting and would rather not be seen), but they'd suck later when you make your checks anyways so I wouldn't take that either.

I see. But again, his attacks are going to focus around his natural weapons. He is only 7 years old to boot, so he will be somewhat childlike, and has a Wis of 8 to boot. Bows just don't seem to fit what I am trying to do with his "theme".

He does have a M.W. iron pot he wears on his head (the DM ruled it could count as a club), so I believe I can throw a club/the pot as a thrown weapon with an increment of 10ft (still not too sure about that, though).

Here's another vote for improved initiative. It's valuable from 1 to 20. Going first never gets old.

Very true. But will it be valuable for helping him survive these very early levels?

Option C: Chant "Pazuzu" and have him get you a Candel of Inocation

LoL.

Oh you...

Would Luck of Heroes be an option? +1 Luck AC, +1 luck to all saves.

Well, i would not call him a "hero", and from how I am reading it you need to be of certain races and you need to eb from certain forgotten realms areas.

[Curmudgeon]

For my first two feats as a Rogue I'd pick Improved Initiative, because going first may prevent unexpected demise; and Weapon Finesse, so you can hit more often in melee.

only if you use certain weapons, and its not available at 1st level... so sadly its off the list

I understand that. I was recommending Improved Initiative, with Weapon Finesse the next feat to take thereafter (at 3rd level). I apologize if exceeding the scope of the immediate question caused any confusion.

[newbDM]

I understand that. I was recommending Improved Initiative, with Weapon Finesse the next feat to take thereafter (at 3rd level). I apologize if exceeding the scope of the immediate question caused any confusion.

Oops! My bad.

I forgot to mention that I took a flaw for this character (Chicken Infested), which gives him a bonus feat. So I effectively have two separate feats at first level as a kobold rogue.

[MeklorIlavator]

Oops! My bad.

I forgot to mention that I took a flaw for this character (Chicken Infested), which gives him a bonus feat. So I effectively have two separate feats at first level as a kobold rogue.

Isn't Chicken Infested
A) a joke flaw?
B) Commoner only?

[newbDM]

Isn't Chicken Infested
A) a joke flaw?
B) Commoner only?

See my thread currently on p.2 of this board:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=98302


edit:
He decided to rather OK it for non-commoners than let me play a level of commoner. Go figure.

[Darrin]

Well, he is going to be quite cowardly. He is a kobold after all, and a Kobolds ate my Baby like one to boot. I do not plan to have him in the thick of combat, but I am thinking he will mostly try to help with sneak attacks (probably after hiding).

Sounds like Craven would be perfect. In Champions of Ruin, add Character Level to Sneak Attack damage, and -2 to will saves. . One of the better feats for rogues in the long run, but unfortunately maybe not so great for:

But will it be valuable for helping him survive these very early levels?

Luck of Heroes is tempting... but if you want a bit better AC... Expeditious Dodge would give you a +2 to AC when you move 30', and you generally make a hide check after moving.

If you have access to Magic of Incarnum, there are a couple soulmelds that might be even better. Shape Soulmeld: Wormtail Belt would give you +2 bonus to natural armor.

And if you're looking for stealth... Shape Soulmeld: Kruthik Claws would give you +4 on Hide and Move Silently.

[Shisumo]

I think you're going to quickly run into the problem that "stealth" and "melee" don't go together very well. You might want to reconsider exactly how you plan to have the character work.

[BobVosh]

How attached are you to kobold? Whisper Gnome lets you silence your 5foot square (including any chickens) and gives you a +6(or is it 8) to hide/ms.

Oh, second thought on chicken infested. Just kill the things. Next combat do the Spell component/chicken trick instead. Because nothing says style like leaving dead chickens at every crime scene.

P.s. Try to get live chicken armor past. For this to work you need to get the whisper gnome. Start by circling around them and drawing chicken components. Drop the chicken/bat poo around them. They steadily hear rising amounts of clucking. Drop your silence and bull rush. "Suddenly you hear a large BA-GAWK! as a small figure barrels into your friend. Impressed you notice that he charged into your friends liver. Seems to do extra damage. Roll initiative."

Try for armor spikes on it as well.

[Rad]

If I have it right you have a claw/claw/bite set of natural weapons, right? Then I'd take multiattack (MM) and Improved initiative. (Weapon finesse is to follow at level 3).
You have your skills for the stealthy side and making more melee attacks is good for a rogue who adds his sneak attack to each of them. The low base damage doesn't really matter since most of your damage is going to be sneak attack anyway.

[Kizara]

Isn't the whole point of the chicken-infested thing that you are going to throw the chickens?

I'd take a feat that makes you proficient with the chickens.

Exotic Weapon Prof (poultry) or something...

[Sstoopidtallkid]

If I have it right you have a claw/claw/bite set of natural weapons, right? Then I'd take multiattack (MM) and Improved initiative. (Weapon finesse is to follow at level 3).
You have your skills for the stealthy side and making more melee attacks is good for a rogue who adds his sneak attack to each of them. The low base damage doesn't really matter since most of your damage is going to be sneak attack anyway.

If you take this route(and I do think it's a very good idea) I suggest a 1-level dip in either Monk or Unarmed Swordsage(so, Unarmed Swordsage) so you can get iteratives with feet/elbows in addition to your Natural Weapon attacks. If you go the Swordsage route, pick up Assassin's stance for an additional 2d6 damage to all Sneak Attacks. Toss in Craven and similar and go to town.

[Talic]

Hmm. For stealth rogues:

Darkstalker > Skill focus: Hide > Stealthy

Improved Initiative is good, as well as anything that lets you stay back.

With 8 HP, you do not want to be a front liner. Ranged attacks. Use that Dex, and that small size. Sure, the damage will be lower, but survivability goes up.

4 ranks + 4 dex + 4 size = +12 hide mod. That's not bad, as long as you move slowly. +14 won't really add much. Darkstalker, right off the bat, will foil scent. Later on, other senses start seeing more use, and it helps there too.

[ericgrau]

Nah, I could see the stealthy feat being useful if people actually used it. That would mean a solo campaign or maybe party full of stealthy characters. You would constantly have to avoid encounters altogether, sneaking your way to wherever you need to go. After you're already noticed in a fight you can't hide (see skill rules), making it pretty worthless in most parties. Between battle use from time to time is fine for your skill ranks, but not an entire feat.

So really it depends what you're doing. If you're in a party then don't get either. You can't even use the stealth during combat. While +1 AC is underrated, it is certainly worse than getting +1 AB or something else. +1 AC is -1 AB to your opponents; assuming they attack you with weapons. So at the very best +1 AC is equal to +1 AB, and depending on the situation it may be worse. Don't boost saves either; it usually doesn't come up often enough to be worth it and even when it does it's not like that +1 or +2 is going to make an insane difference.

If you want to stay alive as a rogue in a party, avoid melee against anything that can seriously hurt you. Get a ranged weapon for other times. Monsters are flat-footed before their first turn, so you can sneak attack those monsters during round 1. Improved initiative can help, but so can boosting your AB so your one important attack hits. And as long as at least one monster still goes after you, you don't even need improved initiative.

A simple way to get +1 AC after you hit level 2 or so is a masterwork buckler. It has no armor check penalty, so there aren't any penalties to AB for being nonproficient. i.e., even a rogue without buckler proficiency can use it. Not sure if it can be used with a crossbow, so you may need to get a shortbow instead (check the rules).

[Talic]

Incorrect. All you must do when you're noticed in a fight is establish total cover or concealment, hide, and move back into a position of partial cover or concealment. In other words, you break Line of Sight, and return.

That said, anything hide can do, Shape soulmeld:Kruthik Claws does a bit better (at least, at low levels, provided you have a 13 con (level 1 rogue with 8 hp? Likely a 14 con there). If retraining is allowed, ditch it later.

[ericgrau]

Per the rules, you cannot hide while being observed. You need both that and concealment (i.e., something to hide behind). "Concealment" means partial concealment like a shadow or bush or etc. With total concealment you can't be seen anyway and don't need a hide check. With partial concealment he'll be looking right at you no matter how good you are at hiding. But even with total concealment the observer likely knows where you went (again, per the rules) and would likely be watching if you tried to come out and sneak attack. 2nd part is inferred, but all that "breaking line of sight" stuff is even more inferred. And I don't see why the rules would mention that bit about being watched while taking total concealment otherwise. If you create a diversion, then you can hide. That's the only specifically mentioned method in the rules outside of special abilities.

Basically all that makes hiding after combat has begun highly unlikely, though technically sometimes possible. Even if you really could hide by cutting line of sight for 6 seconds, even that isn't all that common and feasible.

[Darrin]

Isn't the whole point of the chicken-infested thing that you are going to throw the chickens?

Only if they are on fire (via Dragonfire Inspiration/Strike). Add some Bloodstorm Blade for Flaming Returning Power Attacking Chickens.

I'd take a feat that makes you proficient with the chickens.
Exotic Weapon Prof (poultry) or something...

It would most likely count as an improvised weapon, and that -4 penalty can be difficult to get rid of. Drunken Master might help, but that requires at least two levels of monk, and it doesn't explicitly remove the -4 penalty for improvised weapons. Hulking Hurler reduces the penalty to -2... actually, that'd be pretty amusing if you could get a kobold into that PrC.

There's a 3.0 PrC in Dragon somewhere, Brawler, that removes the -4 improvised penalty entirely, but it requires three useless feats.