Scale Armor and the Dragon Shaman

[Man of Kaala]

Need opinions and figured this would be the very best place to get them. I would like my dragon shaman to make himself a set of dragonscale armor, but not sure if he can use his totem dragon's scales. Do dragons need to be dead before their scales can be used for that purpose? I can't decide if a dragon shaman should use the totem dragon's scales as a sign of honor/respect, or if he should use the opposite dragon's scales as a sign of conquest. Any suggestions...?

[Ponce]

This seems like it might be an "Ask your DM" question. If he says you can get dragonscale armour without killing a dragon and that other dragons won't be peeved at it, I guess you are good to go.

I guess if that doesn't work you could try painting regular armour to resemble dragon scale?

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Look at the Dungeonscape(IIRC) ACF that loses Armor Proficiency in exchange for naturally growing armor. May fit your flavor better.

[Thurbane]

I would definitely go with the opposite dragon's scales, but that's only my 2 coppers...

[Lert, A.]

Look at the Dungeonscape(IIRC) ACF that loses Armor Proficiency in exchange for naturally growing armor. May fit your flavor better.

Actually it is in Dragon Magic (p.12). Dragonscale Husk requires heavy armor so the Dragon Shaman doesn't qualify unless he multiclasses.

There is also the issue of having to fight with the DM since it states it does not stack with "any feat, racial trait or other special ability that would grant you a bonus to Armor Class." Since the bonus type is unnamed some DMs disallow all bonuses to AC (including dodge bonusses, deflection, insight, etc.), while others rule the bonus to be an armor bonus and say good enough. Can be a hassle though.

[daggaz]

Fluff-wise there is no reason that you would have to kill a dragon to get its scales. Maybe you collect them in the lair ala "Dragonslayer" or maybe some dragon gave them to you, or maybe you just found a very old, very dead dragon somewhere?

Thats no reason tho that another living dragon wouldnt misunderstand and get upset..

[Blackfang108]

Fluff-wise there is no reason that you would have to kill a dragon to get its scales. Maybe you collect them in the lair ala "Dragonslayer" or maybe some dragon gave them to you, or maybe you just found a very old, very dead dragon somewhere?

Thats no reason tho that another living dragon wouldnt misunderstand and get upset..

Or, maybe a Dragon put it in his will that your family would receive enough scales to make a suit of armor, and he died not too long ago.

[KillianHawkeye]

Well, I can't find anything specific about the status of the dragon after making armor out of him, but I'm leaning in the direction of the dragon being dead at the end for 2 reasons. First, based on the size of the dragon needed to make a certain amount of armor, it seems that it would take most of the dragon (considering all the parts that would be unusable). Second, we are not really talking about armor made from dragon scales, we are talking about armor made from dragon hide (with accompanying scales, I suppose, but it doesn't really say that). I don't know about you, but I usually don't see many creatures walking around after their HIDE has been removed.

That being said, it's more common to see bad guys wearing the hides of evil dragons than good dragons, so I suppose the reverse would be true. Alternatively, you could try using the colored metal from Races of the Dragon if you're just going for the visual effect.

[Fizban]

It would probably take the biggest dragons to find shed scales large and strong enough to reinforce armor effectively the way RAW treats it, since you can only make Banded, Full, and Breastplate, which implies that they're using big scales in place of plates of metal. I'd allow Scale Mail to be made from a dragon only one size larger than the target armor size, but shed scales will be smaller and you'll probably need at least a huge dragon for a medium suit of humane Scale Mail. You should also bear in mind that Scale Mail sucks, and standard Dragonhide just makes the armor masterwork and non-metallic. Using the Dragoncraft rules from the Draconomicon you can get some paltry resistance to the dragon's energy type, but that's it.

The [something] of Bahamut PrC requires you to kill a juvenile red dragon to enter (which is patently ridiculous for a fighter at earliest prerequisite level), and it's first class feature is creating an enhanced suit of Scale Mail from it's hide, which magically turns platinum when you make the armor. It's printed in various levels of usefullness in a couple books, but you'd have to ask your DM to advance dragon shaman stuff instead of spells.

All things considered, I actually like the colored metal idea most. You could commission a very stylized colored suit of Mithral Scale Mail, which while being much more expensive than Chain Shirt, at least wouldn't be much worse. You'd have the cool dragonarmor-y look in your preferred dragon color, while avoiding the problem of offending the very dragon you revere by apparently wearing the corpse of it's brethren (an angry dragon isn't likely to give you enough time to explain that it was a gift).

Or, if DM agrees, dragons likely have keen enough senses that they could tell that only the scales of your armor came from a dragon, and they are more worn than normal scales, indicating that your armor is made from cast-offs. Or they could just smell the difference between dead dragon and shed skin, whatever works.

In any case, you're going to need a houserule to make Scale Mail, and you're going to need at least a huge sized dragon to make armor for a medium creature under the normal rules. I think the best option if you're set on real dragonscales is to get your DM agree that dragons can tell the difference between slain dragonhide and cast off scales, so you don't get every dragon you see after you, and then get him to agree that cast off scales simply increase the required dragon's size by one step. Finally, you need him to agree that Scale Mail can be made from Dragon scales, and that it takes one size smaller than Banded Mail. If you get get all that through, you can then make a suit of Shed Dragonscale Scale Mail for a medium creature from the shed scales of a friendly dragon of huge or larger size.

[Xefas]

I can't decide if a dragon shaman should use the totem dragon's scales as a sign of honor/respect, or if he should use the opposite dragon's scales as a sign of conquest.

I've always thought of it this way:

A human who wears clothes made from the skin and fur of bears looks like a badass to other humans.

A human who wears clothes made from the skin and hair of humans looks like a psychopath who needs a round in the electric chair to other humans.

Bears and humans are diametrically opposed just like Chromatic and Metallic Dragons. So, obviously if you want to look like a badass to the Golds and Silvers out there, you need armor made from the scales of a Chromatic.

[Man of Kaala]

Thanks for the great advice. I didn't want to ask the DM about it so much as I wanted to tell him what I was doing (he prefers us to make up as much as we want - within reason, of course). However, it looks like he'll have to make a ruling about the scales-vs-hide issue after all. If scales are fine, then I'll suggest that my character go in that direction.

BTW, it's a dwarven Dragon Shaman, and I'm more going for the affect than the actual armor benefit. So, if I can't get scales, I may go for the color change idea.

[KillianHawkeye]

A human who wears clothes made from the skin and fur of bears looks like a badass to other humans.

A human who wears clothes made from the skin and hair of humans looks like a psychopath who needs a round in the electric chair to other humans.

Bears and humans are diametrically opposed just like Chromatic and Metallic Dragons. So, obviously if you want to look like a badass to the Golds and Silvers out there, you need armor made from the scales of a Chromatic.

LOL, the relationship between bears and humans is JUST LIKE the relationship between chromatic and metallic dragons! Somebody should send this to Stephen Colbert.

"The number one threat to America: Red Dragons!

[Tsotha-lanti]

I would definitely go with the opposite dragon's scales, but that's only my 2 coppers...

So you're a black dragon?

And the coppers are so small you need two to make one suit?

[hamishspence]

might depend on the setting- in 4th ed, dragonbone and dragonhide decay- it needs magic to make a functional dragonhide suit.

[Heliomance]

You could always save up for Dragonrider armour from the Draconomnomnomicon. It's +1 fullplate, grants a bonus to ride checks while riding a dragon, and automatically casts feather fall on you if you fall more than 5 feet. It's also explicitly made from the cast off scales of dragons.

[Quirinus_Obsidian]

a Dragon Shaman, someone that venerates Dragons (and respects the evil ones) wearing Dragonscale armor would peeve off a lot of them.

It would be like a human wearing human skin armor. Silence of the Lambs anyone?

Creeepy.

[charl]

Hmm... Dragons look like reptiles. Maybe they shed their skins just as reptiles do? You could use the shedded skin to make armour I suppose, though it probably wouldn't be nearly as durable as actual hide taken from a dead dragon.

[Thurbane]

So you're a black dragon?

And the coppers are so small you need two to make one suit?

You know, the funny thing is my current character is a Copper Dragon Shaman...