[4e] Lifedrinker Blades and the Reluctant Rogue

[LibraryOgre]

My minotaur paladin died tonight. He died as a paladin should... keeping the enemy busy whilst the badly overmatched party escaped.

However, with him gone, I'm contemplating a halfling rogue, and came across a question while thinking about equipment, specifically the lifedrinker weapon.

Now, it says that when you drop an enemy to 0 HP or fewer, you gain 5 temporary HP. Simple enough. But what happens if you stab an unconscious-but-not-dead enemy (say, you are biding your time until you can be more useful)? Technically, you are bringing them to fewer than 0 HP... they just happen to have been there already.

[KKL]

I'd say it wouldn't work, since the trigger is bringing them below 0, as in death. Plus, THP doesn't stack anyways.

PS: Subtle/Footpad's Friend/Vicious are awesome enchantments for Rogues.

[Keld Denar]

Hmmmm, I'd say that stabbing a person who is below 0 hp multiple times to gain extra hp would beyond the scope of the weapon. If you had some way to magically heal them above 0, then stab em again, it might be possible.

Then again, multiple bonuses from the same sourse don't stack. The 5 hp you get from the weapon would be overwritten every time you stab another foe. Just like you don't get extra temp hp from multiple castings of False Life or Hero's Feast (although you can have 1 of each), so too you probably wouldn't get temp hps from the same weapon enhancement.

Cool idea though.

EDIT: Gah, a ninja with a lifedrinking weapon just got me!

[FoE]

I'm no rules expert, so I'll argue this on the basis of flavour.

I would say no, Mark, since I interpret the flavour of the weapon as stealing a small portion of an enemy's lifeforce as it exits his/her body. Since you aren't killing the unconscious enemy, you don't gain the hit points.

[KKL]

so too you probably wouldn't get temp hps from the same weapon enhancement.

Actually, temp HP doesn't stack in 4e at all, to preserve people's sanity. Unless of course, Vigor Fighters.

[Keld Denar]

Actually, temp HP doesn't stack in 4e at all, to preserve people's sanity. Unless of course, Vigor Fighters.

Gah!!! When did he put a [4e] tag on there? I demand this foul play be investigated!

[BardicDuelist]

My minotaur paladin died tonight. He died as a paladin should... keeping the enemy busy whilst the badly overmatched party escaped.

However, with him gone, I'm contemplating a halfling rogue, and came across a question while thinking about equipment, specifically the lifedrinker weapon.

Now, it says that when you drop an enemy to 0 HP or fewer, you gain 5 temporary HP. Simple enough. But what happens if you stab an unconscious-but-not-dead enemy (say, you are biding your time until you can be more useful)? Technically, you are bringing them to fewer than 0 HP... they just happen to have been there already.

By RAW, it may, but RAI would probably indicate (to most) that it does not. As others have said, Temp HP don't stack.

It's sort of like the healing by drowning in 3e. It was looked over because it was thought to be obvious. Granted, the designers should have known better this time, but there it is.

[skywalker]

By RAW, it may, but RAI would probably indicate (to most) that it does not. As others have said, Temp HP don't stack.

It's sort of like the healing by drowning in 3e. It was looked over because it was thought to be obvious. Granted, the designers should have known better this time, but there it is.

I think they expected everyone who heals by drowning (which honestly, this isn't a case of, this is actually a fairly novel idea: My sword steals people's life force as it exits the body, so I'll simply knock them out and carry them around till I need their life force. I can see a number of halflings thinking that up) to be scared away by that "balance" word, and stay in 3.5.

At first blush, it looks like cheezy rules-lawyering, but the more I think about it, the more I think "Well that's clever more than anything else... And certainly something one could figure out 'in-world'..."

EDIT: What I meant to say with that first paragraph is, I would probably let you do it if I was DM.

Re-EDIT: Gah! Last paragraph. Last.

[potatocubed]

Well, in 4e the only difference between killing someone and knocking them out is how you choose to fluff the final blow. Both involve reducing someone below 0 hp.

This means that, RAW, you get your temp hp when you knock the guy out, not when you kill him later. More of a 'Consciousnessdrinker' than a Lifedrinker.

With my GM hat on, I'd say that your idea is fine. You just houserule so that the Lifedrinker only works when you kill a guy, not just 'reduce him below 0 hp'. Which is, judging from the name, how it was supposed to work in the first place.

[Kurald Galain]

But what happens if you stab an unconscious-but-not-dead enemy (say, you are biding your time until you can be more useful)?

In 4E, you can't stab an unconscious-but-not-dead enemy. So no, that wouldn't work.

[TwystidMynd]

There are certain specifications about how you can only use an ability on something that presents a viable threat. For example, there is an encounter ability (I believe, I'm away from my books atm) called Healing Strike that allows the character to smack a baddie, and let an ally use a Healing Surge. I remember reading (in the DMG I believe) that you can only use that ability (and abilities like it) on things that are actual threats; you can't just smack a door and tell your ally to heal up.

By that logic, I wouldn't blame a DM for judging that you can't drink an unconscious person's life-force. To further clarify, I mean that if you encounter a person who is unconscious (at -5 HP but alive), you can't stab them to steal more of their life.

However, I think it'd be perfectly fine to find a person at +3 HP, stab them with your Lifedrinker, but declare that you're not killing the person but rather just knocking him unconscious, and fluff it as saying "I bring him to the brink of the chasm, and then sap his strength away, rendering him unconscious" as a way of justifying getting the temp HP.

[TricksyAndFalse]

One of the side bars in one of the books has the "bags of rats" example. It says that a warlock can't carry around a bag of rats, cursing and killing them to get the bonus all the time. The warlock only gets the benefit of the pact boon from cursing and bringing an actual challenge down to or below 0 hp.

In light of this, if I was your DM, I wouldn't let you use the lifedrinker weapon to stab an unconscious creature you carry with you any time you wanted 5 temp hps.

[LibraryOgre]

Ok, I don't know where the idea of carrying a semi-dead body came from. I wasn't looking for ultimate cheese, just a "Hey, I wouldn't mind some temporary HP right now, and here's this handy enemy who can't fight back!"

I wound up going with a Pact Blade (since a multiclass feat is radically better than skill training in pretty much every way) and a Vicious Shuriken (since all throwing weapons automatically return after every attack).

[Tacoma]

In 4E, you can't stab an unconscious-but-not-dead enemy. So no, that wouldn't work.

I am confused by this.

Are you saying that my character, a human with a spear, is physically unable to stick his spear in the slowly-bleeding body of an unconscious person?

Because that does not make sense.

Or are you saying that the sword has an ability that can be used only upon conscious creatures? Or a "threatening" creature?

[FoE]

I am confused by this.

Are you saying that my character, a human with a spear, is physically unable to stick his spear in the slowly-bleeding body of an unconscious person?

Yes you can, coup de grace exists in 4E.

[Inyssius Tor]

I am confused by this.

Are you saying that my character, a human with a spear, is physically unable to stick his spear in the slowly-bleeding body of an unconscious person?

Because that does not make sense.

Or are you saying that the sword has an ability that can be used only upon conscious creatures? Or a "threatening" creature?

You could perhaps make a case that an unconscious creature cannot be an "enemy", I suppose...

Wait, no you can't. Ha! Coup de grace only works against "helpless enemies."

[skywalker]

Ok, I don't know where the idea of carrying a semi-dead body came from. I wasn't looking for ultimate cheese, just a "Hey, I wouldn't mind some temporary HP right now, and here's this handy enemy who can't fight back!"

I wound up going with a Pact Blade (since a multiclass feat is radically better than skill training in pretty much every way) and a Vicious Shuriken (since all throwing weapons automatically return after every attack).

I think you deserve points for cleverness.

I am confused by this.

Are you saying that my character, a human with a spear, is physically unable to stick his spear in the slowly-bleeding body of an unconscious person?

Because that does not make sense.

Or are you saying that the sword has an ability that can be used only upon conscious creatures? Or a "threatening" creature?

As the boat thread has proven, there are quite a few funny quirks about 4e's rules designed to prevent cheezyness that wind up simply seeming screwed up. The point here is that once you've reduced someone to zero HP in 4e, you can't reduce them further. Once they're at zero, they're either unconscious, or dead. If they're only unconscious, and not dead, making them dead is an easy task, so you simply decide they're dead. There are no rules for killing someone who is unconscious, because it simply happens. Coups de grace have nothing to do with it.

[RPGuru1331]

In 4E, you can't stab an unconscious-but-not-dead enemy. So no, that wouldn't work.

Where are you getting that idea from the RAW?

Also, if you all really doubted that the unconscious were legal targets..

You can heal people.

[Oracle_Hunter]

Oh good, it's time for Construct a Proof to Display Common Sense:

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(1) Generally creatures die when reduced to 0 HP. However, there are exceptions.

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Monsters and characters controlled by the Dungeon Master usually die when they reach 0 hit points, unless you choose to knock them out (see “Knocking Creatures Unconscious”). You generally don’t need to stalk around the battlefield after a fight, making sure
all your foes are dead.

(2) When you reduce a creature to 0 HP or fewer, you can decide, rather than killing it, to knock it Unconscious.

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When you reduce a creature to 0 hit points or fewer, you can choose to knock it unconscious rather than kill it. Until it regains hit points, the creature is unconscious but not dying. Any healing makes the creature conscious. If the creature doesn’t receive any healing, it is restored to 1 hit point and becomes conscious after a short rest.

(3) Unconscious creatures are also Helpless

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- You’re helpless.
- You take a –5 penalty to all defenses.
- You can’t take actions.
- You fall prone, if possible.
- You can’t flank an enemy.

(4) As a Standard Action, you may Coup de Grace an adjacent Helpless enemy, causing an automatic critical hit. If you deal damage greater than or equal to the target's bloodied value, you can kill the enemy outright.

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- Helpless Target: You can deliver a coup de grace against a helpless enemy adjacent to you. Use any attack power you could normally use against the
enemy, including a basic attack. Hit: You score a critical hit.
- Slaying the Target Outright: If you deal damage greater than or equal to the target’s bloodied value, the target dies.

Therefore, you can kill an Unconscious target. QED

Or, y'know, your DM can just say "You slit his throat. Since he was nearly dead already, it's enough to kill him outright - don't bother rolling."

Now, for the OP:

By RAW, you can certainly make a case, since "drop an enemy to 0 HP or fewer" is ambiguous. Either it can mean "when your attack causes sufficient damage to move a positive HP total to zero or negative" or "whenever you cause an enemy's HP to become 0 or negative."

From a DM's perspective, I would say that the first interpretation is more friendly both under the spirit of the rules, and in avoiding potential abuses. Possibly, I would allow you to make a Coup de Grace action on unconscious foes, and if you kill them outright, you gain the Temp HP. Or, more leniently, I would allow you to slit their throat as a Standard Action (no roll).

It would make for a particularly grim character, to be sure. May I suggest that your Lifedrinker be inhabited by a malign intelligence that encourages you to prey on the helpless? Not in the Mind Control sense, but in a telepathic whispering into your mind "go on, kill him. If you don't, he'll escape later, and tell his friends about your party - much better to stab him now, while everyone else is distracted."

EDIT:
A Pact Blade? Well, it can be used as both an Implement and a Weapon, so that's good. But without Warlock's Curse, you can't use the automatic damage ability.

But you probably knew that already

[LibraryOgre]

A Pact Blade? Well, it can be used as both an Implement and a Weapon, so that's good. But without Warlock's Curse, you can't use the automatic damage ability.

But you probably knew that already

Yeah, but I'm not planning on spending any more feats on my Warlockishness... it merely was a superior way of getting skill training. A pact blade makes my Eyebite competitive.