[3.5] Optimizing a gestalt archer

[AgentPaper]

So, I'm currently building a level 15 gestalt character who, as per title, focuses on ranged combat. He's for the arena that's getting started, so single combat is what he needs to be good at. So far, I'm planning to do Barbarian 15/Rouge 5/Order of the Bow Initiate 10. The barbarian and the rouge are using the UA feature swapping to loose rage to gain ranger favored enemy and ranged mastery, and loosing sneak attack to gain fighter bonus feat progression. Barbarian gives good defense and mobility, and the OotBI lets me make ranged attacks without provoking, so I don't need to worry about melee characters getting within threat range.

My most likely changes are to take less barbarian levels for another prestige class, and to take less OotBI levels (I need 2 for the close attack, but any odd level gets me nice precision damage) Another option is to sub in scout for the rouge levels, which still lets me into OotBI at 6, but gives me some nice abilities instead. One thing of great importance for this is that spellcasting is strictly not allowed in this arena, so no magic abilities and such. Tome of Battle is allowed, though I don't know much about the ToB myself.

Edit: I just realized this should probably be in the character builder thread. Silly me, I forgot it was even there.

[jcsw]

So, I'm currently building a level 15 gestalt character who, as per title, focuses on ranged combat. He's for the arena that's getting started, so single combat is what he needs to be good at. So far, I'm planning to do Barbarian 15/Rouge 5/Order of the Bow Initiate 10. The barbarian and the rouge are using the UA feature swapping to loose rage to gain ranger favored enemy and ranged mastery, and loosing sneak attack to gain fighter bonus feat progression. Barbarian gives good defense and mobility, and the OotBI lets me make ranged attacks without provoking, so I don't need to worry about melee characters getting within threat range.

My most likely changes are to take less barbarian levels for another prestige class, and to take less OotBI levels (I need 2 for the close attack, but any odd level gets me nice precision damage) Another option is to sub in scout for the rouge levels, which still lets me into OotBI at 6, but gives me some nice abilities instead. One thing of great importance for this is that spellcasting is strictly not allowed in this arena, so no magic abilities and such. Tome of Battle is allowed, though I don't know much about the ToB myself.

Edit: I just realized this should probably be in the character builder thread. Silly me, I forgot it was even there.

In what sense is spellcasting not allowed... Does it include spells? Spell-likes? Scrolls/Wands?

[SoD]

Might I suggest trying to convince your DM to allow this homebrew class? It's from the forums, so it must be balanced!

[AgentPaper]

I believe it's just all spells and spell-like abilities, including spells cast from sources other than yourself, so no wands or scrolls. Normal WBL at level 15, which is 200,000 gold I think. Magic items are allowed, you're just not supposed to do spellcasting cheese. I see no reason to push the line for that, so I'm planning to just forgoe any magic stuff in general. If there's a class that would really help the build and that isn't too magicky, I might try to take it, but otherwise I'd like to stick to natural ability type stuff.

Might I suggest trying to convince your DM to allow this homebrew class? It's from the forums, so it must be balanced!

Just looking at it, I don't think it's balanced. I'm gunna stay off of homebrew unless it's some tried-and-true homebrew that has seen plenty of use and a number of people supporting it's balanced status.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

A dip into ToB is always nice. Scout/Ranger of course lets you add on a good bit of bonus damage, and there's a non-spellcasting variant. Maybe something like Scout 1/Rogue 11/Scout 3//Barb 1/Ranger 11/Warblade 3. Go Greater Manyshot, of course, take the Ranger ACF from PHBII to lose your useless AC and make enemies flatfooted, snag a Belt of Battle and Improved Skirmish, and make the enemy beg for mercy. 11d6 per shot FTW.

[RMS Oceanic]

Make sure your weapon has the Splitting ability (+3 enhancement). Each arrow it fires splits into two a fraction before it strikes its target. This means two identical arrows strike the target, and as far as I know, bonus damage applies twice.

[AgentPaper]

Care to flesh out that build a bit more, especially how it works? Is there some reliable method of getting sneak attacks that you're taking all those levels of rouge for? I'd also like to get at least OotBI 2 for the close range shot, and was also thinking of getting kip up with a 1 level dip into thief-acrobat as well.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Care to flesh out that build a bit more, especially how it works? Is there some reliable method of getting sneak attacks that you're taking all those levels of rouge for? I'd also like to get at least OotBI 2 for the close range shot, and was also thinking of getting kip up with a 1 level dip into thief-acrobat as well.

Ranger ACF. Makes the enemy count as Flanked. Alternatively either a Ring of Blinking or Greater Invisibility works well.

[AgentPaper]

Ranger ACF. Makes the enemy count as Flanked. Alternatively either a Ring of Blinking or Greater Invisibility works well.

ACF? Please go easy on the acronyms and shortenings...

[Sstoopidtallkid]

ACF? Please go easy on the acronyms and shortenings...

Alternate Class Feature. Lose the pet, gain an ability. Combined with the Swift Hunter feat(Ranger and Scout stack for the purposes of Skirmish/Favored Enemy), Splitting, Greater Manyshot, Improved Skirmish, and a good bow, you end up dealing damage in the levels of the upper obscene(6 arrows at -6 AB dealing 6d6 SA+6d6 Skirmish+1d8 damage).

[its_all_ogre]

alternate class feature from phb 2
personally i'd go with ranger/scout on one side of your progression (swift hunter feat).
possibly fighter for feats on other side.
psionics? if allowed psychic warrior.
if not get wild talent as a feat as this allows a non-psionic character to get psionic feats (no powers so within the rules as stated)
then get psionic shot, greater psi shot, psi meditation and you're golden.

[AgentPaper]

You don't mean Distracting Attack, do you? Because you specifically can't benefit from that yourself. It's for your allies only.

I don't know about psionics, but I assume they are not allowed. I don't like them much anyways.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

You don't mean Distracting Attack, do you? Because you specifically can't benefit from that yourself. It's for your allies only.

You always qualify as your own ally unless the ability specifically says differently. One of the things that's so exploitable about White Raven.

[Telonius]

Arena fight where everybody's cut off from spells? The Elusive Target feat is your new best friend. Imagine the look on that ubercharger's face when you declare dodge against him. "The Power Attacks, they do nothing!" It requires a three-feat investment: Dodge-Mobility-Elusive Target.

On the other side of your gestalt, you might want to consider a two-level dip in Monk. I know, I know, Monk sucks. But the second-level bonus feat can be used for Deflect Arrows, in case somebody wants to get cute and be another archer. Stunning Fist and Unarmed Strike means that - in the awful case where somebody disarms you of the bow - you're not completely screwed. Just mostly screwed.

[AgentPaper]

Hmm, that's nice, then. It doesn't apply to your first hit each round, but all hits after that at least. With the amount of attacks I should be making, that's a small issue. Looking over the rest of the build then...

[Ryuuk]

You always qualify as your own ally unless the ability specifically says differently. One of the things that's so exploitable about White Raven.

Are you sure about that? The feature says "...the enemy is considered flanked by you for the purpose of adjudicating you're allies attacks..." You don't make them flatfooted, you flank them. It might be a bit harder for a DM to accept that you can get sneak attack because you're flanking with yourself.

[AgentPaper]

At any rate, I don't think I'll be using it. More focus on precision/skirmish damage instead.

[jcsw]

Solo Arena?
Team Arena?
1v1 or Free For All?

If the arena is big enough (like... infinitely big maybe) here's a fun strategy:
1. Take the Cragtop Archer prestige class (Races of Stone). This gives sniping related skills. Of special note is that your spot penalties and attack penalties for seeing targets very far away are halved.
2. Dip two levels totemist and bind the blink shirt to your totem chakra. This allows you to dimension door at will as a move action.
3. Win initiative with your High Dex, and Dimension Door 400ft away.
4. Next round attack.
5. Keep using dimension door whenever the enemy gets too close.

The fun part is that the usual problem with this build (spellcasters with long range spells) are no longer a factor.

Alternatively: Play an arrow demon, and put the racial HD on one side and the LA on the other side of the gestalt. (Check if this is allowed)
Arrow Demons can wield two bows at once and shoot both as a single attack, etc.(Arrow Demon in MM3)

[Kaiyanwang]

Maybe my idea is not so munchkin, but could be amusing if well played.

Gestalt Fighter // Wilderness Rogue (UA)

Fighter to take whatever is possible to pimp the bow damage, avoid miss chance, disarm and pin with arrows and so on and to find feats useful to improve sniping (like feats and tactical feats in RotW).

Wilderness Rogue to obtain SA, and camouflage + hide in plain sight.

If interested, I could post or PM some feats.

[AgentPaper]

I don't think totemist is allowed, and it's looking like creatures with LA might also not be allowed.

My current build is scout 5/OotBI 9/Thief-Acrobat 1//Barbarian 15. I would like to replace some to most of those barbarian levels with some PrC that has d12 HD and full BaB. I want barbarian to level 6 so I can get the fighting style feats from the alternate class feature, but after that most of his abilities are useless to me.

[Telonius]

My current build is scout 5/OotBI 9/Thief-Acrobat 1//Barbarian 15. I would like to replace some to most of those barbarian levels with some PrC that has d12 HD and full BaB.

As far as I can tell, there aren't very many of those. Most require that you either: a) be able to rage, b) be able to cast spells, c) be a dwarf, d) be an orc, or e) be a Warforged. The two exceptions I've found, Defender of Sealtiel (BoED) and Infused Warrior (Dragon 321 p.19), are not appropriate to the character.

You might be able to switch some of the Barbarian levels for levels of Knight; but that might be more trouble than it's worth if your character is based around catching the opponent flat-footed.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

I don't think totemist is allowed, and it's looking like creatures with LA might also not be allowed.

My current build is scout 5/OotBI 9/Thief-Acrobat 1//Barbarian 15. I would like to replace some to most of those barbarian levels with some PrC that has d12 HD and full BaB. I want barbarian to level 6 so I can get the fighting style feats from the alternate class feature, but after that most of his abilities are useless to me.

Warblade fits the bill, as long as you only take the maneuvers that work with Ranged weapons(Iron Heart Surge is a must, as is Whiter Raven Tactics).

[jcsw]

As far as I can tell, there aren't very many of those. Most require that you either: a) be able to rage, b) be able to cast spells, c) be a dwarf, d) be an orc, or e) be a Warforged. The two exceptions I've found, Defender of Sealtiel (BoED) and Infused Warrior (Dragon 321 p.19), are not appropriate to the character.

You might be able to switch some of the Barbarian levels for levels of Knight; but that might be more trouble than it's worth if your character is based around catching the opponent flat-footed.

Some to Most, not all. Though where you're gonna find a barbarian related class for ranged attacks stumps me.

[dspeyer]

You may find the old "Home on the Ranged" Gestalt Build Challenge helpful:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=74764

[mangosta71]

What feats are you picking up from the alternate rogue class? If they're just the ones that a ranger would get from choosing the ranged discipline, I would ask why you don't just go ranger instead of barbarian and use the standard rogue for sneak attack damage, or scout for skirmish. Or 11 ranger/4 scout//rogue5/OotBI 9/scout 1, as I think rangers get the last really essential ranged feat free at 11 (but I don't have my books with me, so I may not be remembering right) so you get both SA and skirmish.

What type of terrain will this arena have? If there's any type of cover, having hide as a class skill will be significant, especially as non-magical attacks tend to not affect areas. Unload a volley, slip behind a corner, hide so your opponent(s) can't retaliate.

[AgentPaper]

ok, all in all, I think I'm gunna be looking at a: Barbarian 6/Warblade 9//Scout 5/Thief-Acrobat 1/Order of the Bow Initiate 9. Now, time to look at feats, and also to decide a race. LA +0 for sure, probably an elf or something.

[AgentPaper]

Ok, I just realized that OotBI's precision damage only allows me a single attack, not a full-round attack, so it seems pretty much useless to me. Unless there's something I'm missing, I'm gunna go for scout 14/Exotic Weapon Master 1//Ranger 6/Fighter 9, using the variant to get sneak attack with the fighter, since I don't need the other rouge abilities and fighter gets me more BaB and better HP. Since I have hide in plain sight from the scout levels, I just hide and then attack from hiding, which should get me reliable sneak attacks, right? That's 9d6 extra damage on each attack, as long as I move 10 feet and attack from hiding. Exotic Weapon Master is to pick up close combat shot, though I could easily sub it out for something else, especially something that would help me get more sneak attacks.

Edit: Swap those fighter and ranger levels around, so we get fighter starting HP and so EWM gives us better HP, BaB, and saves with the ranger.

[jcsw]

Don't forget to get travel devotion from complete champion. Once a day for 10 rounds you can move as a swift action, allowing you to full round and skirmish.

[dspeyer]

Don't forget to get travel devotion from complete champion. Once a day for 10 rounds you can move as a swift action, allowing you to full round and skirmish.

Or grab the psychic warrior "hustle" power, for a move action as a swift action until your power points run out.

[AgentPaper]

I'm pretty sure psychic warrior falls under "magic", so not going for that.