[3.5] Started a Warlock: Party offered Retool

[RMS Oceanic]

In a game that came out of the blue on Saturday, I started play as a level 1 Human Warlock with the following choices:

(Stats were rolled)
STR 10
DEX 15
CON 15
INT 13
WIS 10
CHA 18

Feats
Ability Boost (Eldritch Blast)
Improved Initiative

Skill choices
Spellcraft
Use Magic Device
Knowledge (Arcana)
Concentrate

Invocation
Noxious Blast (Sickens the target)

The other member of my party made their characters in private, and we ended up with two Paladins, a Rogue, a Fighter and a Barbarian. I think somebody's trying to convince a Paladin to go Cleric.

The DM has hinted that, after our first session, we can retool our characters slightly, especially if a Paladin goes Cleric. Would you recommend any changes, or how I would go about building the class? I essentially want to be a combination between the archer and the debuffer. Most importantly, my attack bonus isn't powerful, especially because with so many melee builds, I am constantly firing into melee and taking a -4 penalty. Should I replace my feat choices with Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot?

Incidentally, funny story. Me and a Paladin were on watch after setting down camp, when some wolves appeared at the edge of our camp. After calling the others to arms, the other paladin woke up, grabbed his weapon and charged into the middle of the darkness without any armor on. He fell unconscious rather quickly. Leroy Jenkins indeed!

[BobVosh]

http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=393586
Check out the warlocks handbook

[kamikasei]

I would be inclined to swap your CHA and DEX. The higher bonus may be more useful going towards your attacks than your save DCs.

And yeah, I'd advise swapping those feats.

[Kesnit]

Most importantly, my attack bonus isn't powerful, especially because with so many melee builds, I am constantly firing into melee and taking a -4 penalty.

First, you do realize you are making touch attacks, not normal attacks, right? That should help your attacks a lot. Second, would a ranged touch take the -4? (I don't know, which is why I am asking. I looked them up, but it doesn't say.)

[Kurald Galain]

Noxious blast isn't so good, and neither are most of the other "blast enhancing" invocations. Instead, I'd recommend Summon Swarm, or Baleful Utterance.

[Kizara]

If you can take flaws, I suggest picking up Noncombatant and Vulnerable for PT Blk Shot and Precise Shot.

[woodenbandman]

If that paladin goes cleric you will be left in the dust. Sorry, but it's true, warlocks are weak. A good alternative is the Dragonfire Adept from Dragon Magic, because they have a breath weapon and can take some but not all metabreath feats, which are cool. This assumes that the cleric player knows how strong clerics are, because many of them don't. Don't tell him if you don't want to have to become the wand healer while the cleric kills gods.

Next order of business is the Binder, which has similar flavor to a Warlock but is much more powerful and versatile, being able to change its powers daily. Talk to your DM about it, it's in Tome of Magic if you don't know.

Finally, if you do go warlock: Chilling Tentacles, Baleful Utterance, That blast that gives negative levels, and ELDRITCH GLAIVE. Dragon Magic has ELDRITCH GLAIVE, and it is THE BEST. It's a least invocation that allows you to get 2 eldritch blast attacks per round HOW COOL IS THAT.

[Starbuck_II]

In a game that came out of the blue on Saturday, I started play as a level 1 Human Warlock with the following choices:

(Stats were rolled)
STR 10
DEX 15
CON 15
INT 13
WIS 10
CHA 18

Feats
Ability Boost (Eldritch Blast)
Improved Initiative

Skill choices
Spellcraft
Use Magic Device
Knowledge (Arcana)
Concentrate

Invocation
Noxious Blast (Sickens the target)

The other member of my party made their characters in private, and we ended up with two Paladins, a Rogue, a Fighter and a Barbarian. I think somebody's trying to convince a Paladin to go Cleric.

The DM has hinted that, after our first session, we can retool our characters slightly, especially if a Paladin goes Cleric. Would you recommend any changes, or how I would go about building the class? I essentially want to be a combination between the archer and the debuffer. Most importantly, my attack bonus isn't powerful, especially because with so many melee builds, I am constantly firing into melee and taking a -4 penalty. Should I replace my feat choices with Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot?

Incidentally, funny story. Me and a Paladin were on watch after setting down camp, when some wolves appeared at the edge of our camp. After calling the others to arms, the other paladin woke up, grabbed his weapon and charged into the middle of the darkness without any armor on. He fell unconscious rather quickly. Leroy Jenkins indeed!

Tell me, do you want to be a Warlock?

Retool means change class/character?

My suggestion Binder:
You can be a debuffer/archer too (better archer with Lejares and Ricochet shot, plus he offers a bonus feat of Precise shot).

If you are wanting to stay Warlock:
Summon Swarm is best bet right now (standard actiuon to cast, auto damages enemy, stop concentrating as soon as attacks foe or the swarm gains sentience).

The reason is your attack rolls will be too low to hit often in melee at level 1; so why chance it and just go with an auto hit.

I would take Point blank shot instead of ability focus (for right now): if you must shoot eldritch blast that helps.

[mabriss lethe]

Binder is a good choice, but at level 1 your roles will be somewhat limited if you don't take Improved Binding as a feat. Aym, naberius, and Malphas will be your bestest friends until you hit third level and can bind Paimon or Focalor.

I second ditching the essence invocation for...well about any other one in the books. Baleful utterance and summon swarm are probably the best of the bunch right now. Don't let that fact make your decision for you, though.

[Person_Man]

A Warlock can get Hide in Plain Site at first level. Here's how.

There's no reason for a Paladin (or anyone else) to go Cleric. Buy a few Wands of Cure Light Wounds. Both Paladins and you (around 3rd level) can use it.

There is no reason for you to invest in Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot. You're making Touch Attacks and have respectable Dex. And with UMD and Invocations, you'll easily get access to buffs or debuffs that deny your enemy their Dex bonus as well. And even if an enemy has high touch AC (rare, especially at low levels), you can use a Wand or Invocation or whatnot that doesn't rely on a touch attack.

My suggestions:
Blend into Shadows
Imperious Command
Frightful Presence (Draconomicon)
Combat Reflexes->Standstill (if Glaivelock)
Able Learner (if you intend to multiclass)

[Fostire]

Change your dex and cha, the invocations that require a save are really lame until the higher levels (where you can probably get items to boost your cha).

Change the invocation too. Eldritch glaive is very good once you get more than one attack per round, but you said you wanted an archer/debuffer so glaive isn't all that useful for you (although you can use it to threaten with your eldritch blast which means you can flank for the rogue and use your EB for attacks of opportunity).

Baleful utterance is shatter at will, which means you can, at will, destroy the armor and weapons of your opponents (I doubt your enemies will have improved unarmed strike) so this is very useful for debuffing. Baleful utterance also has plenty of uses outside the battlefield, like destroying or springing traps from a distance, or breaking locks. I highly recommend this one.

Eldritch spear can be useful to you depending on how your party plays (if you usually start fights near an enemy this isn't all that useful), I would take it if you fight a lot of flying enemies.

Don't worry much about the -4 from firing into melee, remember that you're targeting touch AC which many monsters have low, specially the bigger ones (great wyrm gold dragon has a touch AC of 2). But then again there aren't that many good feats for warlocks at low level so precise shot is still pretty good choice.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

None of the X Blast invocation type stuff are very good at your level. May I suggest instead either Eldrich Spear (for sniping) or perhaps See the Unseen (see invis + Darkvision) or Dark One's Own Luck (Cha bonus to given save, considering your Cha bonus, this can be powerful), or Summon Swarm.

Baleful Utterance is fun out of combat, but unless you're running into a bunch of constructs, not too useful in combat.

The only Eldrich Blast type invocations that are any good are Vitriolic (Greater) which bypasses SR and gives Acid damage, and Utterdark (Dark), which grants negative levels. Chain Blast is good shape invocation when combined with Utterdark, but otherwise rather pointless.

So, other than these specific invocations, don't bother with blast or blast shape invocations, go for the spell-like ones instead.

[Fostire]

I forgot Beguiling Influence, it's not exactly debuffer/archer but a +6 to bluff, diplomacy and intimidate can be really fun and useful, and it lasts all day.

[Kizara]

None of the X Blast invocation type stuff are very good at your level. May I suggest instead either Eldrich Spear (for sniping) or perhaps See the Unseen (see invis + Darkvision) or Dark One's Own Luck (Cha bonus to given save, considering your Cha bonus, this can be powerful), or Summon Swarm.

Baleful Utterance is fun out of combat, but unless you're running into a bunch of constructs, not too useful in combat.

The only Eldrich Blast type invocations that are any good are Vitriolic (Greater) which bypasses SR and gives Acid damage, and Utterdark (Dark), which grants negative levels. Chain Blast is good shape invocation when combined with Utterdark, but otherwise rather pointless.

So, other than these specific invocations, don't bother with blast or blast shape invocations, go for the spell-like ones instead.

I dunno, I think negative energy cones are pretty useful. Its one of the few decent non-hellfire tricks the class has at higher levels.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I dunno, I think negative energy cones are pretty useful. Its one of the few decent non-hellfire tricks the class has at higher levels.

I prefer Chain Utterdark to Cone Utterdark. No chance of friendly fire that way. Negative levels are VERY bad things to pass out to your party tank. Also, negative levels are not damage, so they are not halved. Every opponent that gets hit by Chain Utterdark Blast that fails their Fort save gets two negative levels.

[Kurald Galain]

Baleful Utterance is fun out of combat, but unless you're running into a bunch of constructs, not too useful in combat.

]
It is very useful at low levels, because it lets you break the enemy's weapons. You can also do things like break the bridge they're standing on, break the rope holding up the chandelier overhead, etc.

Summon Swarm totally owns pretty much every encounter for the first few levels.

Things like See the Unseen or Dark One's Own Luck should not be taken for the first few levels, because it's way cooler to have a few primary invocs that actively do something (and thus, give you something to do in combat besides spamming eldritch blast). Remember that you get to retrain them later, if you want.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

]
It is very useful at low levels, because it lets you break the enemy's weapons. You can also do things like break the bridge they're standing on, break the rope holding up the chandelier overhead, etc.

Loose valuable loot. Keep the party from being able to cross said bridge. Massive friendly fire possibilities with the Chandelier, etc.

Summon Swarm totally owns pretty much every encounter for the first few levels.

I wouldn't go so far as to say that, although it is a strong option

Things like See the Unseen or Dark One's Own Luck should not be taken for the first few levels, because it's way cooler to have a few primary invocs that actively do something (and thus, give you something to do in combat besides spamming eldritch blast). Remember that you get to retrain them later, if you want.

I disagree. Some people prefer playing a more subtle character, quietly ensuring he will not be taken unawares, rather than focusing on doing obvious things that can get unfavorable attention from hostiles.

[Kurald Galain]

Loose valuable loot. Keep the party from being able to cross said bridge. Massive friendly fire possibilities with the Chandelier, etc.

That's why you should use it with care, instead of casting it everywhere. Note that Baleful Utterance doesn't work on magical items, therefore you can't break any really valuable loot with it (incidentally it doesn't work on magical constructs either).

I disagree. Some people prefer playing a more subtle character, quietly ensuring he will not be taken unawares,

Sure, but neither STU nor DOUL actually do that - for that purpose, things like Leaps and Bounds, or Beguiling Influence, work much better. STU is also useless at low levels, because you are highly unlikely to run into any invis opponents yet.

[Kizara]

Well, I consider the "low levels" to be <7, and you are likely to start running into invisible stuff by around 5 or so. And before that, the huge bonuses to spot/listen are handy.

Still, let the druid/ranger sorta guy do the spotting and the caster (druid/cleric/wiz/bard) do the invisibility sweeping and choose something more immediately useful with your very limited number of innovactions.

[Tokiko Mima]

Steps to becoming an optimum 1st level Warlock.

• Try to switch DEX and CHA.
• Don't worry so much about having Precise Shot. You can get the exact same effect as that Feat in the form of an inexpensive magic rod. (Rod of Magical Precision, Complete Mage.)
• You need to decide immediately if you intend to be able to deal large damage in melee via Eldritch Glaive (Dragon Magic.) If you do, one of your first feats should be Weapon Finesse and/or Combat Reflexes.
• Other options include beginning Martial Study (Shadow Blade Technique) so you can later grab Martial Stance (Assassin Stance) when you qualify.
• Or you can grab Wild Talent and prepare to use the Psionic Shot line of Feats to boost Eldritch Blast
• You want Summon Swarm as your 1st level invocation. You will trade it out for either Eldritch Glaive at level 6, or another invocation if you want to not be good at melee.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Are you going Hellfire? It's very good for blasting, IMHO, and not too cheesy unless you try to break it.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Steps to becoming an optimum 1st level Warlock.

• Try to switch DEX and CHA.
• Don't worry so much about having Precise Shot. You can get the exact same effect as that Feat in the form of an inexpensive magic rod. (Rod of Magical Precision, Complete Mage.)
• You need to decide immediately if you intend to be able to deal large damage in melee via Eldritch Glaive (Dragon Magic.) If you do, one of your first feats should be Weapon Finesse and/or Combat Reflexes.
• Other options include beginning Martial Study (Shadow Blade Technique) so you can later grab Martial Stance (Assassin Stance) when you qualify.
• Or you can grab Wild Talent and prepare to use the Psionic Shot line of Feats to boost Eldritch Blast
• You want Summon Swarm as your 1st level invocation. You will trade it out for either Eldritch Glaive at level 6, or another invocation if you want to not be good at melee.

Blowing two feats for 2d6 sneak attack is NOT efficent, it is a waste of precious feats for a piddling amount of extra damage that likely won't be able to be applied most of the time anyways.

Psionic Shot line won't affect Eldrich blast any more than it would Scorching Ray. It's not a ranged attack, it's a spell-like ability.

Dex can be boosted a lot easier than Cha. A 15 is not bad, particularly not when you can increase that at 4th level to 16. Gloves of Dexterity are a lot more user friendly than a Cloak of Charisma, which also eats up the same slot as a Cloak of Resistance, which is much more valuable.

[Stupendous_Man]

Mortalbane from the BoVD. Look it up.

[Enlong]

I'm not so sure that See The Unseen is all that important: once the Warlock gets Detect Magic as an at-will class feature, he can just have that on at all times and see invisible creatures by their magic auras.

But yeah, if you are indeed having that much trouble with shooting into melee, then go for Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot. Should help you out much in the long run.
And I second the notion to use Eldritch Spear. If you wanna be a powerful sniper character, there are few better options than being able to shoot from 250'.
Other Leasts you may want to take would be Summon Swarm, Baleful Utterance, Spider Walk, and stuff like that. (Note, when you can get Fell Flight, take that and replace Spider Walk with some other Least.)

[Person_Man]

Mortalbane from the BoVD. Look it up.

He has Paladins in his party. Qualifying for and using a Vile feat may be difficult, unless he intends to walk around with a sheet of lead everywhere he goes...

[Starbuck_II]

He has Paladins in his party. Qualifying for and using a Vile feat may be difficult, unless he intends to walk around with a sheet of lead everywhere he goes...

Mortal bane is a general feat. It is from Book of Vile Darkness, but not a evil feat.
It only applies to a spell-like ability 5/day (so I guess Eldritch blast).

[MeklorIlavator]

I'm not so sure that See The Unseen is all that important: once the Warlock gets Detect Magic as an at-will class feature, he can just have that on at all times and see invisible creatures by their magic auras.

AS long as he concentrates for 3 rounds and the invisible creature stays within a 60ft cone in front of him...yeah...great plan.

[Stupendous_Man]

I don't think Mortalbane is a [Vile] feat.

[Saph]

Don't worry so much about having Precise Shot. You can get the exact same effect as that Feat in the form of an inexpensive magic rod. (Rod of Magical Precision, Complete Mage.)

That 'inexpensive' magic rod costs 12,000 gp. How many sessions do you think a 1st-level character will take before being able to afford that?

And way too many people seem to think that a ranged touch attack means you don't need to worry about the -4 penalty for firing into combat; this really isn't true. If you do the math, you'll quickly find that it'll be a long, long time before that -4 penalty stops being significant.

- Saph

[Sstoopidtallkid]

That 'inexpensive' magic rod costs 12,000 gp. How many sessions do you think a 1st-level character will take before being able to afford that?

And way too many people seem to think that a ranged touch attack means you don't need to worry about the -4 penalty for firing into combat; this really isn't true. If you do the math, you'll quickly find that it'll be a long, long time before that -4 penalty stops being significant.

- Saph

Maybe, maybe not. Touch AC averages right around 11 for most of his career, with it being 12 at it's highest. That's what the OP needs to be aiming for, and even with -4 he's still averaging just as accurate as most fighters of his level.