My Bardess Needs a Feat!

[Kizara]

Yep, if its not to nerdrage about some minuite in the rules or whether X trope/option is viable, the forums are used to masturbate about our newest character!

Personally, I enjoy the latter alot more. :)
Annnnyways, jaded tongue-in-cheeking aside, onto my character:

For information about some of her backstory, and what songs have been collected for her, see this thread. Please read my OP and post #6 in that thread for detail about her backstory and such, if nothing else.


So, this is my bard build:

Swash 1/ half-fey 2/warlock 7/sublime cord 1/wild soul 9

Bard 10/seeker 10

Feats: Skill Focus (perform) (1st), Improved Initiative (1st), Versatile Performer (flaw 1),???? (flaw 2), Melodic Casting (3rd), Extra Music (6th), Words of Creation (War 4th), Extra Music (9th), Extra Music (12th), Quicken Spell (15th), Extra Music (18th).

Invocations:
Beguiling Influence, Unending Lust, Improved Prestidigitation, Swimming the Styx(2nd), Call of the Wild (3rd), All-Seeing Eyes (4th), Witchwood Step (5th). Fey Flight (6th), Relentless Dispelling (7th).

Flaws: Noncombatant, Vulnerable

Traits: Distinctive (+1 rep, -1 disguise), Passionate (+1 Fort, -1 Will).


Disclaimers: No, don't tell me to take stuff from Eberron, Frostburn or some other obscure source. Yes, I realize that I'm breaking the 2 PrC gestalt rule. Yes, I'm aware that the build is pretty optimized, even if that's not the focus. Yes, I have way too many invocations, this is because of houserules that include a warlock variant that gives up Eldritch Blast for additional invocations.


Anyways, aside from general comments/critique, I am looking for a new feat.

I used to have Obtain Familiar, for RPing reasons, but I found that I am not RPing my familiar at all, as she simply has a lot more interesting things going on. So, my DM agreed that I could ditch it and replace it with something more useful/applicable. Advice is welcome, it can aid her RPing or provide a good mechanical benefit.

[Darkmatter]

Your disclaimer seems a bit odd, considering that you're already heavily invested in the Complete series and most of the invocations you're using are about as obscure as you can get, so I'm going to assume that the Book of Exalted Deeds is mainstream enough for you. The use of words of creation seems to imply that it is...

Nymph's Kiss [Exalted] requires some sort of loosely defined congress with a fey creature, which seems pretty flavorful for your character, and gives you +1 to saves vs. fey spells (OK, whatever) +1 skill point each level (now we're getting somewhere) and +2 to all CHA based skill checks (which is both incredibly useful and perfect for the character.)

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Why so many Extra Musics? It seems like you should have far more than enough without even one.

[Kizara]

Your disclaimer seems a bit odd, considering that you're already heavily invested in the Complete series and most of the invocations you're using are about as obscure as you can get, so I'm going to assume that the Book of Exalted Deeds is mainstream enough for you. The use of words of creation seems to imply that it is...

Nymph's Kiss [Exalted] requires some sort of loosely defined congress with a fey creature, which seems pretty flavorful for your character, and gives you +1 to saves vs. fey spells (OK, whatever) +1 skill point each level (now we're getting somewhere) and +2 to all CHA based skill checks (which is both incredibly useful and perfect for the character.)

I'm tired of everyone sprouting Dragonfire Inspiration (Eberron, which many people won't use outside of that high-magic campaign setting) and Snowflake Wardance (Frostburn, and is also not appropriate for the character).

Now, your suggestion is excellent, and I will be seriously considering it. Maybe re-work it so its +2 to saves FROM fey spells (IE charm person, which is actually useful to me); but regardless quite cool and pretty useful.



As for why so many Extra Music feats:

1) Seeker of the Song + normal bardic music = run through uses really fast.

2) I don't have any better ideas. I'd be willing to hear some.

[Stupendous_Man]

Feats: Song of the Heart (1st), Improved Initiative (1st), Dragonsong (flaw 1),Nymphs' Kiss (flaw 2), Melodic Casting (3rd), Haunting Melody (6th), Words of Creation (War 4th), Versatile Spellcaster (9th), Sound of Silence(12th), Versatile Performer (15th), Lingering Song (18th).

Quicken Spell can't be used by bards.
Grab a first level spell, "Inspirational Boost", which you cast as a swift action when you sing. It gives +1 to bard song.

Song of the heart is a feat that, among other things, gives +1 to bard song

Other feats i changed can be found here: http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.p...98&postcount=4

[Kizara]

Haunting Melody is a great suggestion, and considering that I also have awesome beauty, the stacking fear effects will be fantastic.

Unfortunately for Nympth's Kiss, although her alignment is marginally Good, she is far from Exalted. I somehow skimmed over your labeling of the feat as such the first time.


As for the other feat suggestions and the link: thanks so much, although alot of them are ethier from sources that aren't usable or aren't suitable.

Still, I'm sure that handy compilation will be of benefit and provide me some inspiration. Thanks.


Really, I didn't realize how easily and awesomely I can stack fear effects here. With Daunting Presence, Awesome Beauty and Haunting Melody (not to mention a spell), they are staring right at becoming panicked once I can quicken my music, and even frightened is pretty good beforehand. The main question is: is daunting presence, with its standard action use, useful in the economy of actions later on? And although the problem with fear-immune monsters isn't as applicable in this setting, fear still is an easy effect to shut down.

[Deepblue706]

Toughness.

[Heliomance]

I'm tired of everyone sprouting Dragonfire Inspiration (Eberron, which many people won't use outside of that high-magic campaign setting) and Snowflake Wardance (Frostburn, and is also not appropriate for the character).

Dragonfire Inspiration isn't Eberron at all. It's either Draconomicon or Dragon Magic, I forget which. The latter, I think.

[Kizara]

Dragonfire Inspiration isn't Eberron at all. It's either Draconomicon or Dragon Magic, I forget which. The latter, I think.

Sure, I didn't check because I don't use any of the above anyways.


On a related note (to this thread's purpose), anyone got a good song for Haunting Melody? I want spooky and intimidating, not just empty ghost noises and howls.

[Stupendous_Man]

Sure, I didn't check because I don't use any of the above anyways.


On a related note (to this thread's purpose), anyone got a good song for Haunting Melody? I want spooky and intimidating, not just empty ghost noises and howls.

Rickroll.

[BardicDuelist]

My favorite bard feat:
Doomspeak (from Champions of Ruin, which may very well be too obscure for you...)
Prereq: Bardic music class feature, Intimidate 8, Perform 8
Benefit: You spend a use of BM to utter a string of insults and curses at one opponent within 120ft. Target must be able to hear and understand you. Target makes Will DC (10+level+Cha mod) or be cursed taking -10 to attack rolls, saves, ability checks, and skill checks for one round.

Also: You mentioned Nymph's Kissing being out because your character isn't exalted. How is it that you took Words of Creation then?

[KKL]

I want spooky and intimidating, not just empty ghost noises and howls.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NHT4oKreErY&fmt=18 ?

[Paramour Pink]

Where is Awesome Beauty from? I've never heard of it before.

[Kizara]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NHT4oKreErY&fmt=18 ?

While interesting, that isn't what I really had in mind. I need something with powerful, yet haunting female vocals as the idea is that she is going to sing it. I intend to scour my nightwish collection for something, but I certinally would love suggestions/references.


As for Words of Creation:
A lack of skill in researching, as I didn't look up the feat specifically.
Nonetheless, I think my DM may somewhat handwave it, reflavoring it slightly for a more nature and less holy concept. (note I said slightly, it would still have major good conotations) She would lose access to the feat if she slipped from her good alignment, but not have to be Exalted for it. I'll have to check though.

Awesome Beauty is an ability from Half-Nympth (from some Dragon or other, which we don't generally bother with, but it worked for this purpose). Her actual racial abilities are a splice of Half-Fey and Half-Nympth. Trading out things such as wings and spellcasting for Awesome Beauty and better ability score mods.

Here's the ability. I think it's awesome.
Awesome Beauty – any Humanoid within 30’ who looks at the
Half-Nymph is Shaken (WillNeg, DC is Charisma-based) for 1
minute. Continued looking results in additional saves, the failure
of which resets the duration. The Half-Nymph can suppress or
resume this ability as a Free Action. This is a [mind][fear] effect.

[Mephit]

I've built a bard recently, so I've got some suggestions:

- Compat Panache (PHBII; Tactical): Helps offset your fragility somewhat, especially the 3rd tactic. Also a very nice flavor, I think.
The Master Manipulator and Wanderer's Diplomcy are nice social feats if you've got some Diplomacy skills. Check it out and see if it fits with your concept - but looking at how you described her, maybe she's not exactly a master manipulator.

- Nymph's Kiss is indeed a very good choice. See if you can ask to reflavor that a bit, too. (How is a connection with fey 'exalted', except that your link appears to be with good alligned ones?)
Plus, you're a half-nymph. There's no flavor reason not to take it.

- Does Seeker of the Song advance Spellcasting? I don't remember, but if it does, Versatile Spellcaster (RotD) always looks good on a spellcasting bard.

- Green Ear from Complete Adventurer lets your songs affect plants. Never used it, but if you're going for a nature theme, you could consider it.

[Kizara]

Thanks for your response.

Regarding social feats: I looked at and considered them, but I ended up asking myself "Why do I need a feat to do this? I don't need a feat to RP dominating the attention of a room or verbally outwitting someone..."

Nymph's kiss is a maybe. Could it reasonably be re-flavored as non-exalted? Sure. It doesn't make alot of sense though (I have sex with fey so I'm more skilled? What?). I also already have alot of skills and I'm not sure a feat slot is wroth more.


SotS does not, although it gives its own (mainly blasting) spell effects. However, I'm also going Sublime Cord, which is the "bard casty" PrC.

Versitile spellcaster is not in acceptable source material. Not everyone plays "kitchen sink" DnD, geeze...

It's a nature-themed character, the campaign is set in modern day with supernatural elements (ala Hellboy 1/Hellboy 2), and thus is not nature-oriented at all. I feel the feat would be pretty useless and am skipping it.

[Toxic Avenger]

Nymph's kiss is a maybe. Could it reasonably be re-flavored as non-exalted? Sure. It doesn't make alot of sense though (I have sex with fey so I'm more skilled? What?). I also already have alot of skills and I'm not sure a feat slot is wroth more.

Don't forget about the +2 bonus to all Charisma related skill checks...

Also, I'd like to clear this up before anyone else perpetuates this particular myth: An intimate relationship is not always a sexual one:

An intimate relationship is a particularly close interpersonal relationship. It is a relationship in which the participants know or trust one another very well or are confidants of one another, or a relationship in which there is physical or emotional intimacy.

Physical intimacy is characterized by romantic or passionate love and attachment, or sexual activity.

Ahem...

Anyway...as you mentioned, your character is a Half-Nymph. If she has a good relationship with her mother, then she already meets that particular requirement for the feat. Retool it to be merely Good-aligned instead of full blown Exalted, and you're good to go.

[Keld Denar]

What about Requiem, from LM? Requires 8 ranks in Perform, which you'll have for your level 6 feat. It allows ALL of your bardic music to affect undead, even though they are immune to [Mind Affecting]. The durations are halved against them, but something is better than nothing.

Think about all the fun you could have with a really high DC Suggestion against that hot vampire dude.

[Ganurath]

On a related note (to this thread's purpose), anyone got a good song for Haunting Melody? I want spooky and intimidating, not just empty ghost noises and howls.

Any music remotely related to Deathnote?

[Raging Gene Ray]

It's a nature-themed character, the campaign is set in modern day with supernatural elements (ala Hellboy 1/Hellboy 2), and thus is not nature-oriented at all. I feel the feat would be pretty useless and am skipping it.

Nymph's Kiss doesn't give a bonus on saves vs. fey. It gives a +1 to all saves against Spells and SpellLike Abilities. So whether or not your surrounded by dryads and nymphs, it's still useful...but not as useful as if you'd taken it at first level for a whole mess of skill points.

Personally, I'd go with Requiem or Doomspeak mentioned above...Doomspeak if you don't think you'll run into undead...

By the way, I suggest the spell Animate Instrument. You can command an instrument to carry on a Bardic Music effect while you start another one, so you can distract enemies with Fascinate, Inspire Courage in allies, Use Suggestion to get bystanders to help you, and still be free to use your Seeker Music to blast what needs blastin'.

[Kizara]

Don't forget about the +2 bonus to all Charisma related skill checks...

Also, I'd like to clear this up before anyone else perpetuates this particular myth: An intimate relationship is not always a sexual one:
Ahem...

For the bonus to skill checks, it is rather obvious: you learn to be more sensual and persuasive under the guidance of creatures that epitomise such qualities; makes perfect sense to me.

Well, I'm not going to argue with you that they deliberately left the wording vague enough to give people that didn't want that kind of 'mature content' in their games a cop-out. I mean, the feat is called Nymph's Kiss, its pretty obvious what the intention here is.

Anyway...as you mentioned, your character is a Half-Nymph. If she has a good relationship with her mother, then she already meets that particular requirement for the feat. Retool it to be merely Good-aligned instead of full blown Exalted, and you're good to go.

Indeed. Although, interestingly enough, she has never even met her mother and only recieves periodic letters from her. Xoana is essentially an orphan, although she tries not to let this get her down.

What about Requiem, from LM? Requires 8 ranks in Perform, which you'll have for your level 6 feat. It allows ALL of your bardic music to affect undead, even though they are immune to [Mind Affecting]. The durations are halved against them, but something is better than nothing.

Think about all the fun you could have with a really high DC Suggestion against that hot vampire dude.

I saw that, although I feel I will get more milage out of Haunting Melody instead and stacking fear effects. I don't see undead being a major part of the campaign, and it hardly allows you to bypass everything that stops mind-affecting.

Any music remotely related to Deathnote?

Could you give me a more specific recomendation? I need something without alot of heavy instrument work that focuses more on female vocals. Maybe some non-electric strings.

Nymph's Kiss doesn't give a bonus on saves vs. fey. It gives a +1 to all saves against Spells and SpellLike Abilities. So whether or not your surrounded by dryads and nymphs, it's still useful...but not as useful as if you'd taken it at first level for a whole mess of skill points.

Personally, I'd go with Requiem or Doomspeak mentioned above...Doomspeak if you don't think you'll run into undead...

By the way, I suggest the spell Animate Instrument. You can command an instrument to carry on a Bardic Music effect while you start another one, so you can distract enemies with Fascinate, Inspire Courage in allies, Use Suggestion to get bystanders to help you, and still be free to use your Seeker Music to blast what needs blastin'.

For the first part: Indeed, I need to stop looking stuff up at 5am when I'm half asleep.

It's a very solid feat, perhaps overpowered.

This is what I'm looking at right now:

Feats: Skill Focus (perform) (1st), Improved Initiative (1st), Versatile Performer (flaw 1), Daunting Presence (flaw 2), Melodic Casting (3rd), Haunting Melody (6th), Words of Creation (War 4th), Extra Music (9th), Extra Music (12th), Quicken Spell (15th), Extra Music (18th).

Doomspeak is A) Not from a valid source, B) Not really the right for this concept, and C) Overpowered (which is coincidently why we don't allow things from screwy places).


As for Quicken Spell, I don't like bringing my houserules into discussions like these, because it makes people wary of offering me advice, but one of the first ones I made is that spontaneous casters can make use of Quicken Spell as one might imagine.

The only Extra Music I would consider swapping-out is my 18th-level one, but I don't have anything good to replace it. As it is, with only 2 others I would be quite concerned with running out via spamming seaker and normal bardic music abilities (Althuogh being able to also go sublime cord is going to help with this, but will also put on new demands). I might try to swing Versitile Spellcaster by then, as at that level/power level its a more reasonable request.

Thank you all for your help and suggestions, especially those in theme with the character.

Additional Request: Does anyone know of a good bardic feat, ability, ACF, anything that is good at shutting down casters (wizards specifically)? SotS gets Hymm of Spelldeath, which will rock, but I'd like a viable option before level 16.

I just found Spellbreaker Song (CMage), is this wroth it? 20% ACF that eats up my action? It will probably be more useful then Countersong (although I can see Countersong being applicible in some RP circumstances), but I'm wondering if I should bother with the ACF?

[Heliomance]

5 levels of Virtuoso (CAdv) gets you Jarring Song, which forces enemy spellcasters within 30 feet to make a concentration check equal to your perform check to be ablee to cast anything. It also has full spellcasting apart from the first level, so take the first level just before Sublime Chord, then go int SC, and back to Virt to let it advance your SC spellcasting.

Also, it's a lot easier for people to suggestthings that you can use and aren't from "screwy sources" if you actually provide a list of the sources available to you. You get aggravated with people for suggesting something from RotD, and complain that not everyone plays "kitchen sink" D&D, but how are we supposed to know what books you do use if you don't tell us?

[Kizara]

5 levels of Virtuoso (CAdv) gets you Jarring Song, which forces enemy spellcasters within 30 feet to make a concentration check equal to your perform check to be ablee to cast anything. It also has full spellcasting apart from the first level, so take the first level just before Sublime Chord, then go int SC, and back to Virt to let it advance your SC spellcasting.

Also, it's a lot easier for people to suggestthings that you can use and aren't from "screwy sources" if you actually provide a list of the sources available to you. You get aggravated with people for suggesting something from RotD, and complain that not everyone plays "kitchen sink" D&D, but how are we supposed to know what books you do use if you don't tell us?

Thanks for the recomendation, but doing that would get the feature the same time as Hymm of Spelldeath, and the Hymm is better anyways.

Also, it would mean missing out on Wild Soul abilities, which while not spectactular, are quite decent.


As for books, very well, let me try to make a good list:

Used:
Core, Cadv, Carc, Cdiv, Cwar, Cmage, PHB 2, HoB, HoH.

Maybes:
LM, Races of Wild/Stone/Destiny, MIC, CScoun, Weapons of Legacy, BoEF, BoED, BoVD.

Explicitly Banned:
ToB, SpC, Setting-Specific stuff (which is also why SpC isn't used), Cchamp, champions of X books.

Stuff not on there we might rarely pull something from, but it doesn't generally see play/come up. Or possibly, I simply forgot something.

[The Mormegil]

Weapons of Legacy... a MAYBE???

Uh... I think that's not actually something PCs can USE, maybe even right from the beginning... right? That's more of a "the DM needs to create an artifact without it being too overpowered, so he MAY consider using it". I mean, WoL ARE artifacts after all....

[Heliomance]

No, it's more "The DM wants to create an artifact and wants to nerf the hell out of anyone that decided to use it". WoL sucks. It's possible to make a worthwhile one, but it takes a good deal of munchkining.

[Fostire]

How about Lyric spell, it lets you use bardic music uses as spell slots. I think the number of uses expended is 1+1/spell level. This feat is great for a sublime chord.
It's from complete adventurer.

[Keld Denar]

I saw that, although I feel I will get more milage out of Haunting Melody instead and stacking fear effects. I don't see undead being a major part of the campaign, and it hardly allows you to bypass everything that stops mind-affecting.

I never said it bypasses ALL mind affecting, meerly that it it gets around the fact that UNDEAD are immune to [Mind Affecting].

Could you give me a more specific recomendation? I need something without alot of heavy instrument work that focuses more on female vocals. Maybe some non-electric strings.

Check out anything by Nina Hagen. Granted, anyhting you find may or may not be in German, but she's got some pretty strong vocals, and typically not too much acompanyment. In particular, take a look for the cover of Rammstein's Seeman she did with Apocalyptica. Its on youtube.

Additional Request: Does anyone know of a good bardic feat, ability, ACF, anything that is good at shutting down casters (wizards specifically)? SotS gets Hymm of Spelldeath, which will rock, but I'd like a viable option before level 16.

I just found Spellbreaker Song (CMage), is this wroth it? 20% ACF that eats up my action? It will probably be more useful then Countersong (although I can see Countersong being applicible in some RP circumstances), but I'm wondering if I should bother with the ACF?

I notice you don't have Complete Scoundrel on any of your lists anywhere. Its not allowed, or banned, or even maybed. Therefore, I'm gonna make a recommendation out of it. If you don't like it, then ignore me. Sound of Silence allows you to burn 2 uses of BM as a standard action to deafen a single foe within 30' unless they make a Will save DC=Perform check (lol?). They are deafened for 3 rounds. Deafened carries with it a 20% chance to misscast any spell with verbal components. Doesn't completely shut em down, but eh, its something.

It should also be noted that continuous damage (like Acid Arrow) forces concentration checks. If you have up one of the SotS elemental damage songs up, thats considered continuous damage and the DC is 10 + 1/2 damage + spell level, IIRC.

[Toxic Avenger]

Yeah, if you want to be able to bypass Immunity to [Mind Affecting], you'll need this feat...

Music Of The Gods [Epic]
Prerequisites
Cha 25, Perform 30 ranks, bardic music class feature.

Benefit
Your bardic music can affect even those normally immune to mind-affecting effects. However, such creatures gain a +10 bonus on their Will saves to resist such effects.

...unless there's a non-epic feat that I don't know about...

Also:

Spoiler

Show

Well, I'm not going to argue with you that they deliberately left the wording vague enough to give people that didn't want that kind of 'mature content' in their games a cop-out. I mean, the feat is called Nymph's Kiss, its pretty obvious what the intention here is.

[friendly sarcasm]Right... Because all kisses are sexual in nature. Right...

Guess I can't kiss my children 'Good Night' anymore...[/friendly sarcasm]

Of course, this is nonsense, IMHO. If that was the intention, then it should have been explicitly stated as such. In fact, it could have been explicitly stated, as the book is intented for mature audiences only. That is was not leads me to believe that was not their intention.

Furthermore...in many countries, it is customary to kiss friends and relatives on the cheek (perhaps even multiple times! oh noes! ) as a greeting. France, for just one example... (Perhaps you are already aware of this; I don't know where Ownageville is. )

[Vexxation]

Well, I'm no expert on bards, or, really, anything D&D, but I have a suggestion for a song.

Take a snippet of Bach's Toccata and Fugue in D Minor.
Linky: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ipzR9bhei_o

Also, it's just a cool video to watch, if you ask me.

[Kizara]

No, it's more "The DM wants to create an artifact and wants to nerf the hell out of anyone that decided to use it". WoL sucks. It's possible to make a worthwhile one, but it takes a good deal of munchkining.

Indeed, its more that the book gets limited use and isn't generally viable then we feel its unbalanced.

I never said it bypasses ALL mind affecting, meerly that it it gets around the fact that UNDEAD are immune to [Mind Affecting].

I know that. I'm saying the feat is too situational because of such. I don't feel I will be running into undead regularly enough that its wroth the investment.

Check out anything by Nina Hagen. Granted, anyhting you find may or may not be in German, but she's got some pretty strong vocals, and typically not too much acompanyment. In particular, take a look for the cover of Rammstein's Seeman she did with Apocalyptica. Its on youtube.

Yes it is. Quite cool, thanks for the reference. Xoana can speak German, so its not much of a problem. I don't know if the sound will work for her, but I rather like listening to it; something about the German language has such power in it, and that singer really brings it out.

I notice you don't have Complete Scoundrel on any of your lists anywhere. Its not allowed, or banned, or even maybed. Therefore, I'm gonna make a recommendation out of it. If you don't like it, then ignore me. Sound of Silence allows you to burn 2 uses of BM as a standard action to deafen a single foe within 30' unless they make a Will save DC=Perform check (lol?). They are deafened for 3 rounds. Deafened carries with it a 20% chance to misscast any spell with verbal components. Doesn't completely shut em down, but eh, its something.

It should also be noted that continuous damage (like Acid Arrow) forces concentration checks. If you have up one of the SotS elemental damage songs up, thats considered continuous damage and the DC is 10 + 1/2 damage + spell level, IIRC.

I might as well use the spellbreaker song I mentioned, as it doesn't require a feat and does basically the same thing.

As for continous damage: for sure.

Toxic Avenger:

Semantics and reading too much into something IMO. "Intimate relationship" with a Nymph? Come on. Yes, I know the feat text doesn't specify that, but its called Nymph's Kiss, not "Innocent non-sexual relationship with fey creatures."

Vexxation:

Cool. Not really haunting, but cool. Nice reference for an instrumental piece. Thanks.

EDIT: Lyric spell is a cool feat, I'll have to wait until higher level to see what is more valuable to me: Bardic Music uses or Spell Slots, then maybe take it instead of an EM.