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Thread: [3.5] Bard help

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    Default [3.5] Bard help

    I'm making a Gnome bard and I realized he isn't much good once he runs out of spells. And since he doesn't have that much spells to begin with, that is a bit of an issue. Here are the stats:

    Gnome Bard 6

    Str 6, Dex 12, Con 16, Int 12, Wis 10, Cha 19(34 point buy)

    Feats: Spellcasting prodigy(+1 save DCs), two remaining

    I've got 10k GP to spend and have access to pretty much all 3.5 WotC material. Abilities can also be switched around if need be. Oh, and I'm expecting to play till level 12 or so and what I'm looking for is something useful to do between casting spells in combat. Any help would be appreciated.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Bard help

    Find the WotC bard handbook.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Bard help

    Don't neglect your Inspire Courage ability. Its aguably one of the strongest combat abilities you have. With it, you can becomes a more powerful and fierce warrior than most fighters, and any fighters around you become even more powerful. It may not look like much, but there are a TON of abilities out there that can increase it. For example:

    Song of the Heart [Feat] from the Ebberon Campaign Setting, increase bonus by +1.
    Inspirational Boost [Spell] from Spell Compendium. Cast as a swift action, then start Inspire Courage to get +1 to it.
    Badge of Valor [Item] from Magic Item Compendium. Use it as an immediate action during an Inspire Courage song to get +1 to it.
    Masterwork Lute [Item] I think this is in Complete Scoundrel, gives +1 to Inspire Courage
    Vest of Legends [Item] from DMGII, increases your effective bard level by 5. This increases your base IC level, but remember, there is not progression past level 20. Great if you are lowish level or multiclass a lot.

    So, if you had the feat Song of the Heart, and a Vest of Legends, your base IC would be +2 (as an 11th level Bard) +1 for Song, or +3 total. If you cast Insp Boost before starting a song, you would inspire a +4, and if you then activated your Badge of Valor after you start to sing, it would bump to +5. Giving all of your allies +5 to hit and +5 to damage is pretty much amazing at your level.

    If you want to mix it up a bit, the feat Dragonfire Inspiration is fun to play with. It changes your +x/+x Inspire Courage into a +xd6 bonus fire damage. If you take the advice above, that would mean you and all of your allies don't get any extra chance to hit, but if they do, you all get +5d6 damage on EVERY HIT. This is awesome.

    Now, what if you don't ever want to lose this bonus? Well, you can normally continue an Inspire Courage as long as you want. It doesn't take any actions to maintain, although you specifically can't cast any spells while doing it. UNLESS, you take the feat Melodic Casting. This feat allows you to keep Inspiring while casting spells. Now you shouldn't have to stop IC any time, unless you want to chat with someone or want to be sneaky.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Bard help

    As a bonus, Song of the Heart, Vest of Legends and Words of Creation buff your other abilities too. Anyways, a Bard can do a number of things besides magic:
    Sing
    Fight
    Skillmonkey
    Heal
    Use Songs to apply Persistent Spell on your buffs.

    and a number of other things. It's just a matter of deciding what you want to focus on.
    Last edited by Eldariel; 2008-12-10 at 06:08 AM.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Bard help

    Doomspeak from Champions of Ruin. It gives your opponent -10 to nearly everything he'd have to roll for for one round and uses bardic music. If you do a search, you can probably find the entire feat described on this board.

    Dragonfire Inspiration and Snowflake Wardance are oft suggested bard feats, but I never seem to have room for them.

    What PrCs (if any) are you planning on heading toward? Lyric Thaumaturge and Sublime Chord seem right up your alley. You could tack on Virtuoso to get the epic bard feel going at around 14th level.

    Enchanting Song and Misleading Song aren't BAD, but aren't that great either.

    Metamagic music is like a non-cheesy Divine Metamagic and is a good idea with persistent spell.
    Last edited by BardicDuelist; 2008-12-10 at 07:08 AM.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Bard help

    Has anyone ever tried taking Arcane Disciple(Fire) and the fiery burst reserve feat? I know reserve feats aren't a good idea usually, but in this case I think It may just help my bard out a bit.

    I'm not planning on taking PrCs for this character.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Bard help

    Quote Originally Posted by weenie View Post
    Has anyone ever tried taking Arcane Disciple(Fire) and the fiery burst reserve feat?
    In general they're decent in certain builds, bard is not one of them.
    Not only does bard have slower spellcasting progression, meaning they have less spell-levels to power fiery burst, they also have less fire spells.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Bard help

    Indeed, most importantly, Bard will never have very high spell-level for Fiery Burst so you'll be doing very little with it. If a Bard wishes to focus on spellcasting, Sublime Chord and Metamagic Song are the way. But that mostly kicks in later on. Right now, you ought to either focus on improving your fighting, or your singing, preferably both. Level 6 means you've got 6 Bardic Music uses - that means 6 encounters you can grant the entire party insane bonuses to everything with Inspire Courage (the song you should mostly be using at this point).
    Last edited by Eldariel; 2008-12-10 at 07:36 AM.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Bard help

    I know it is a weak option, but I'd only lose two feats and I can take Flaws, so that's not an issue. I'm not trying to center my whole build around it, it's just something I could use to kill a few mooks while inspiring courage.. It's not going to be a high powered campaign anyway, so I was really only looking for some gashing flaws.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Bard help

    Quote Originally Posted by weenie View Post
    Has anyone ever tried taking Arcane Disciple(Fire) and the fiery burst reserve feat? I know reserve feats aren't a good idea usually, but in this case I think It may just help my bard out a bit.

    I'm not planning on taking PrCs for this character.
    You want to do direct damage with a bard? Hmm... well, I guess every once in a while a fish decides it really wants to ride a bicycle. It sounds like you're frustrated because your character isn't being effective in combat, and Fiery Burst would at least give him a ranged attack he could do every round. Personally I think it's a lousy idea, but if it makes you happy, fine with me. If you want to go that route, you should reconsider Sublime Chord, since that will add more fire-based invocations to your spell list.

    You can get a lot more damage not only just for your character but for every single attack the party makes by going the Dragontouched + Dragonfire Inspiration route. Inspire Courage doesn't go up to +2 until 8th level, but if you add Song of the Heart and Inspirational Boost, at 9th level you could be adding 4d6 energy damage to all of the party's attacks. Add Draconic Heritage and you can switch the energy to something unusual like force or sonic.

    There are more important things for bards to do in combat other than damage, though. Your enchantment and illusion spells are designed to delay, confuse, redirect, or neutralize opponents. You're also a backup healer. And the number of helpful things you can do with just an unseen servant are staggering (pick up disarmed weapons, open/close doors, drop/pick up caltrops, position smokesticks, etc.). If you can save another party member from wasting a move or standard action to do something, that gives them another attack roll on an enemy. Yeah, ok, so maybe you spend a lot of time as a foppish, singing gopher, but after the battle is over, you totally pwn the barmaids back at the tavern.

    Outside of combat, you're got the charisma to be the party face, even if you didn't put points in diplomacy. Not to mention the amount of damage you can do with the forgery skill. ("I'm here to pick up Lord Giantcodpiece's magic armor. Oh, here's the purchase order and the receipt from the moneylender, signed by the Lord himself.")

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    Default Re: [3.5] Bard help

    No, actually I'm quite ok with my character. He is a great party face, can be sneaky, has a few SoS spells with very nice DCs, and to top it off he gives everyone a +2 to hit and dmg(took Song of the Heart). My problem was that at lvl 6 my bard runs out of spells pretty fast, so I was looking for something he could do while Inspiring courage, while he saves his spells for the though guys. His melee sucks, his ranged isn't much better, so I figured having a 2d6 Reflex half wouldn't hurt. It cost me two feats, but it really isn't all that bad. Right?
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    Default Re: [3.5] Bard help

    Quote Originally Posted by weenie View Post
    I'm making a Gnome bard and I realized he isn't much good once he runs out of spells.
    You're doing it wrong.

    If you want a character whose power comes from spellcasting, then you'd be better off with a different class than Bard. Wizard, Sorcerer, Beguiler, Cleric, Druid, whatever. (Depending on whether you want a big repertoire of spells for every occasion, the ability to spam a few powerful spells over and over, enchantment and illusion magic supplemented with skill-monkey abilities, support casting and healing, or just raw pwnage.)

    If you want to play a Bard, you should be significantly contributing via things other than casting spells. Bardic music, bardic knowledge, the use of various skills, and plain old attacks with weapons if it comes to that.

    I'd make a gnome bard's stats something like 17 Cha, 16 Int, 16 Con, 14 Dex, 8 Str, 8 Wis at level 6 before magic items. (Str is only worthless if you ignore the carrying capacity rules.) You've got a bunch of great class skills, and they just go to waste if you don't pour skill point into them. If you'd sooner pick up a cloak of charisma +2 that a circlet of persuasion, or you value alter self more as a source of natural armor than a superb means of disguise, then you really should be questioning just why you're playing the skill-monkey/caster hybrid instead of a straight-up caster. If you just wanted good spellcasting but also skills to fall back on... that's what Beguiler, Arcane Trickster, and the like are for.

    Don't be afraid to select spells and skills purely because no one else in your group has them. You've also got Use Magic Device as a class skill, which may allow you to use some magic items that no one else in your group can. You have the capacity to fill nearly any sort of hole in a party's abilities, so use it. A significant strength of the Bard class is its ability to pick up an array of disparate abilities. If you want to specialize in one role, you make a party face character (in core), take a PrC, or play a different class. If you're not doing any of those, you're really best off embracing the Bard's jack-of-all-tradesness.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Bard help

    You're proficient in the whip. Stand just behind the melee and try to disarm and or trip folks. Even if you fail, all you lose is a low-cost whip for the rest of the fight.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Bard help

    Quote Originally Posted by weenie View Post
    I know it is a weak option, but I'd only lose two feats and I can take Flaws, so that's not an issue. I'm not trying to center my whole build around it, it's just something I could use to kill a few mooks while inspiring courage.. It's not going to be a high powered campaign anyway, so I was really only looking for some gashing flaws.
    You'd be better off shooting things with a bow or some such.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Bard help

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldariel View Post
    You'd be better off shooting things with a bow or some such.
    I'd still cost me (at least)two feats+weapon proficiency to be effective and my to hit is weak. As for the whip thing, I'd cost me 2 feats(my flaw is noncombatant, so I'd have to ditch it) and with my strength it would still be incredibly ineffective.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Bard help

    A plain ol' +1 light crossbow and the Rapid Reload feat allow you to make two 1d6 + 1 attacks per round. Admittedly, the second one of those is only at BAB +1, and you can't take it and make a move action in the same round. And an arrow won't ever damage multiple foes... Hmm.

    Ranged trip and disarm attacks are fun, but a fair bit harder to pull off if you're a gnome.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Bard help

    Quote Originally Posted by Devils_Advocate View Post
    A plain ol' +1 light crossbow and the Rapid Reload feat allow you to make two 1d6 + 1 attacks per round. Admittedly, the second one of those is only at BAB +1, and you can't take it and make a move action in the same round. And an arrow won't ever damage multiple foes... Hmm.

    Ranged trip and disarm attacks are fun, but a fair bit harder to pull off if you're a gnome.
    But then there's shooting into melee and all that stuff. And my gnome still has a crappy attack bonus.. Inspire courage helps, sure, but not that much.

    Don't know guys, it seems to me that the reserve feat is still my best option so far.

    And to reply to the people that have suggested the xd6 force damage bonus, I think that would be overdoing it a bit.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Bard help

    How about wands?

    Get a few wands for spells you haven't on your class list but are usefull anyway.

    Shatter and Invisibility spring to mind.

    Also: If you just use a +1 flaming light crossbow with no feats, you'll still be able to hit with a +6 for 2d6+1 damage. That's not to bad.

    if you really want to use reserve feats, at least use those that you can already use. Touch of Distraction or Clap of Thunder? (dunno your spells)
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    Default Re: [3.5] Bard help

    If you're dead set on picking up a reserve feat, you'll probably get more use out of Dimensional Jaunt, Summon Elemental, touch of distraction, or clap of thunder. Sure, you'll have to wait a few more levels to pick them up, but they're far less feat intensive and far more utilitarian, which, I think, is the main reason to avoid fiery burst.

    As soon as you can afford it, try to pick up a wand of shadow conjuration (or better still, an eternal wand.)

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    Default Re: [3.5] Bard help

    as has been said ad nauseum a spellcaster focus bard is not ideal. the point of the bard is multiuse. you have ok weaons armor, skills lore (so useful) bardic music (equally usefull) and a nice mix of spells to suppliment.

    clap of thunder if a beaut of damage dealing. shadow veil gives you a little grief giving by penalizing an enemy and giving people he's fighting concealment.. and melodic castign to do spells and keep up singing.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Bard help

    Rather than burning two feats on Arcane Disciple and Fiery Burst, it seems like it would be more effective just to dip a level of Warlock.

    1d6 magic ranged touch damage all day long, and a Invocation to boot. Beguiling Influence or some such?

    Hey, wasn't there even a Complete Mage PrC that advanced Warlock and Arcane Caster simultaneously?
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    Default Re: [3.5] Bard help

    Quote Originally Posted by weenie View Post
    Don't know guys, it seems to me that the reserve feat is still my best option so far.
    There are very few situations where this statement is ever warranted.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Bard help

    elderitch theurge,

    and its a good point chr synergy, and to get a little dr would help inprove survivability. but it does hinder bardic song and lore.

    much to consider.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noneoyabizzness View Post
    as has been said ad nauseum a spellcaster focus bard is not ideal. the point of the bard is multiuse. you have ok weaons armor, skills lore (so useful) bardic music (equally usefull) and a nice mix of spells to suppliment.

    clap of thunder if a beaut of damage dealing. shadow veil gives you a little grief giving by penalizing an enemy and giving people he's fighting concealment.. and melodic castign to do spells and keep up singing.
    No. Being a jack of all trades is always suboptimal in D&D. Haberdash the Kitchen Sink is about the only exception I can think of. You need to pick a facet of the Bard and make it good. Spellcaster Bards can be very scary, if built right - Sublime Chord is a very nice PrC. Alternatively, you can optimise your Inspire Courage out the wazoo and end up granting ~30 extra damage to every attack your allies make. Or you can become a very competant skillmonkey and party face. Trying to fill all the roles will mean you are mediocre at them all.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Bard help

    Quote Originally Posted by Stupendous_Man View Post
    There are very few situations where this statement is ever warranted.
    I have to disagree. There are quite a few good Reserve feats out there, and they shouldn't be dismissed out-of-hand. Now, if he'd said Fiery Burst....
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    Default Re: [3.5] Bard help

    Quote Originally Posted by Heliomance View Post
    Haberdash the Kitchen Sink.
    What does putting hats on taps have to do with optimized Jack of All Trades builds?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Heliomance View Post
    No. Being a jack of all trades is always suboptimal in D&D. Haberdash the Kitchen Sink is about the only exception I can think of. You need to pick a facet of the Bard and make it good. Spellcaster Bards can be very scary, if built right - Sublime Chord is a very nice PrC. Alternatively, you can optimise your Inspire Courage out the wazoo and end up granting ~30 extra damage to every attack your allies make. Or you can become a very competant skillmonkey and party face. Trying to fill all the roles will mean you are mediocre at them all.
    in every build you still dont neuter the ability to wear armor, use a reasonable decent weapon, or completely do away with some aspect of being able to do "a little of everything". sublime chord, good prc, especially for the temp caster boost. but is not on par with a full mage with other prcs. if you want to be an "optimal" full blown caster you dont go bard. if you want to be little subprime but want your options you go bard. if you go bard and you get rid of any advantage to being a bard, then you may as well play a different class.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Bard help

    Quote Originally Posted by Sstoopidtallkid View Post
    I have to disagree. There are quite a few good Reserve feats out there, and they shouldn't be dismissed out-of-hand.
    Hence why i only said very few. 90% of all reserve feats are crap.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Noneoyabizzness View Post
    in every build you still dont neuter the ability to wear armor,
    You can use light armour. Whoop de doo. That's hardly a party role.
    use a reasonable decent weapon,
    In the words of Vaarsuvius, there is a vast gulf between being proficient with a weapon and being good with a weapon.
    or completely do away with some aspect of being able to do "a little of everything".
    If you focus on one aspect of the Bard, the other aspecs are likely to suffer somewhat. If you try and do everything, everything suffers. I didn't say you would be bad, I said you would be mediocre.
    sublime chord, good prc, especially for the temp caster boost. but is not on par with a full mage with other prcs.
    Actually, it really is, especially at later levels. The classic Bard 9/Virt 1/Sub 2/Virt +8 build I would say is probably better than a sorceror.
    if you want to be an "optimal" full blown caster you dont go bard. if you want to be little subprime but want your options you go bard. if you go bard and you get rid of any advantage to being a bard, then you may as well play a different class.
    Bards can become terrifying spellcasters. Bards can become terrifying buffmonkeys. Bards can become terrifying diplomancers. Or Bards can be mediocre at all three. It's possible to fill all the roles, but it takes serious cheese.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Bard help

    Quote Originally Posted by Stupendous_Man View Post
    Hence why i only said very few. 90% of all reserve feats are crap.
    Fixed. Reserve feats are just as often worth it as normal ones.
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