*Curious* Spellcaster Cleric v a Sorceror?

[Kantolin]

Exhibit A is a Cleric. Give the cleric a d4 hit die, poor base attack bonus, maintain the 2+int skills, remove the 'can cast in armour/shield' and armour/shield proficiencies. Basically, a pseudowizard with the cleric spell list.

Exhibit B is a fairly typical sorceror.

At varying levels of optimization, how do the two compare? This is not a topic of 'I want to do this to balance the cleric' or anything; there are simply a lot of variables in here to analyze, so I wanted to pose the question to a wider array of people before really commenting on it.

[Saph]

Are we talking PvP, or how much you can contribute to a party? Divine magic generally isn't as good at killing things as arcane magic, but clerics have better access to healing/restoring/protecting spells.

- Saph

[monty]

A significant part of the cleric's spell list is personal buffs and instantaneous/short-duration touch spells. Remove their natural defenses, and they're going to have trouble contributing without dying in combat.

[Kantolin]

Are we talking PvP, or how much you can contribute to a party?
- Saph

The latter.

A significant part of the cleric's spell list is personal buffs and instantaneous/short-duration touch spells. Remove their natural defenses, and they're going to have trouble contributing without dying in combat.

That's essentially the response I figured - that the sorceror would be notably more useful. But there may be things I'm overlooking.

[Knaight]

Not necessarily, just because the sorcerer can't change his spell list around. Given some more books, and preparation time in combat, and the cleric can easily win there, out of combat no contest, as the cleric will have more out of combat spells available even if the sorcerer focuses entirely on out of combat spells, at which point the cleric wins in combat.

[Jack_Simth]

Not necessarily, just because the sorcerer can't change his spell list around. Given some more books, and preparation time in combat, and the cleric can easily win there, out of combat no contest, as the cleric will have more out of combat spells available even if the sorcerer focuses entirely on out of combat spells, at which point the cleric wins in combat.

That's not entirely true.

Consider a Planar Binding Sorcerer-14. While the Wizard (or in this case, Cleric) can prepare the ideal spell, the Sorcerer can Call the ideal outsider (reasonably reliably). The Cleric is forced to choose spells at a specific, declared preparation time (usually in the morning, for convenience), while the Sorcerer just needs 20 minutes notice (give or take).

Granted, the Cleric gets the Planar Ally line, but there's some very important differences between the two:
1) Planar Ally costs XP and some form of payment, Planar Binding has no long-term costs (unless they're selected for the purposes of bettering a bargaining position).
2) Planar Ally has the deity select the critter, Planar Binding has the caster select the critter.
3) Planar Ally is a self-contained spell, Planar Binding requires a few other spells to work effectively.
4) Planar Ally does not anger the called; Planar Binding can.
5) Planar Ally is completely reliable; Planar Binding is a little risky.

1) means that the Sorcerer has a long-term cost advantage.
2) means that the Sorcerer has a flexibility advantage
3) means that the Sorcerer is spending more immediate resources on it (but the Sorcerer already has more immediate resources to burn, so...)
4 and 5) are adventure hooks for the Sorcerer, that the Cleric doesn't get.

[monty]

Also, consider the Cloistered Cleric, which is like what you suggest to a lesser degree, but also with 6+Int skill points and a bonus domain.

[Stupendous_Man]

Not necessarily, just because the sorcerer can't change his spell list around. .

Limited Wish + Psychic Reformation = PROFIT!

[Kantolin]

Not necessarily, just because the sorcerer can't change his spell list around.

I'd assumed that the arcane spell list (over the divine) would be enough to counteract that, though.

As a reminder to people, though, this isn't necessary a topic of, "I plan on doing this to a PC cleric" or sommat. I mostly wish to compare the two.

[Eldariel]

Heavily optimized Cleric has Wizard-like versatility with insane caster levels, insane party buffs and so on. In the upper end of the optimization-scale, the Cleric wins easily (except if Sorcerer gets Incantatrix). With just rudimentary spell selection optimization (the level usually present in games with knowledgable players), Sorc has an edge (also, Familiar to double spells/round on higher levels).

Cleric needs tools such as the ability to cast multiple domains through their normal slots, DMM/DSP, Initiate of Mystra, etc. to truly shine here. That said, being to level 9 one level early is certainly a huge boon for Cleric and it may be that every odd level, Cleric gets ahead while every even level, Sorc goes ahead (since he catches up to the Cleric in spell levels).