Twf...

[Pirate_King]

If you switch the first two letters, you get my response to anyone who says you can't do TWF with fists. The logical path to getting a ridiculous number of extra attacks for unarmed strikes because you can punch, kick, head-butt, elbow, etc. aside, I want someone to once and for all point out exactly where in the rules it is explicitly stated that you can't use unarmed strikes to gain an extra attack for your full-round action. For my own argument, I will cite the PH on TWF rules:

TWO-WEAPON FIGHTING
If you wield a second weapon in your off hand, you can get one extra
attack per round with that weapon. Fighting in this way is very hard,
however, and you suffer a –6 penalty with your regular attack or
attacks with your primary hand and a –10 penalty to the attack with
your off hand. You can reduce these penalties in two ways:

If your off-hand weapon is light, the penalties are reduced by 2
each. (An unarmed strike is always considered light.)

The Two-Weapon Fighting feat lessens the primary hand penalty
by 2, and the off-hand penalty by 6.
Table 8–10: Two-Weapon Fighting Penalties summarizes the
interaction of all these factors.

Emphasis mine. I do not understand why the WotC would feel the need to explain that an unarmed strike counts as a light weapon for TWF if you're not allowed to use it for that. Some would argue that you can only use the unarmed strike for the extra off-hand attack, with the primary attack being armed. This doesn't make sense. Why would a fighter have any easier a time punching or kicking a guy after hitting him with a weapon than he would after punching or kicking him once? If anything, it should be harder, because the optimal distance to use 2 unarmed strikes is the same, whereas the distance will differ between using a weapon and an unarmed strike. Either way, no other rule I can find imply that you can only use an unarmed strike as the secondary off-hand attack. Who in the playground can give me the exact line that states otherwise?

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Normal unarmed attacks are dual-wieldable. A Monk's are not.

At 1st level, a monk gains Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat. A monk’s attacks may be with either fist interchangeably or even from elbows, knees, and feet. This means that a monk may even make unarmed strikes with her hands full. There is no such thing as an off-hand attack for a monk striking unarmed. A monk may thus apply her full Strength bonus on damage rolls for all her unarmed strikes.

If you wield a second weapon in your off hand, you can get one extra attack per round with that weapon. You suffer a -6 penalty with your regular attack or attacks with your primary hand and a -10 penalty to the attack with your off hand when you fight this way. You can reduce these penalties in two ways:

* If your off-hand weapon is light, the penalties are reduced by 2 each. (An unarmed strike is always considered light.)
* The Two-Weapon Fighting feat lessens the primary hand penalty by 2, and the off-hand penalty by 6.

Table: Two-Weapon Fighting Penalties summarizes the interaction of all these factors.

[RebelRogue]

Aha, but there's a hyphen in one formulation but not the other!


Seriously, hasn't this already been beaten to death?

[monty]

Didn't CustServ rule that you could do that? I know that they're not the most reliable source for rules interpretation, but it's still something.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Didn't CustServ rule that you could do that? I know that they're not the most reliable source for rules interpretation, but it's still something.

Do I need to add them to my sig? There's documented cases where CS gave 2 opposite answers to the same question.

[Pirate_King]

it's entirely possible to interpret flurry of blows as a monk having already taken TWF already, only it's specialized. It makes sense, since the penalties are the same as a character using TWF with two light weapons, only it improves as the level increases.

[RebelRogue]

it's entirely possible to interpret flurry of blows as a monk having already taken TWF already, only it's specialized. It makes sense, since the penalties are the same as a character using TWF with two light weapons, only it improves as the level increases.

It actually makes little sense as they're two different abilities (the flurry changes the penalty at higher levels, TWF does not to name one obvious difference). Would it be overpowered? Not at all, but I don't think anyone in this thread feels it to be.

Edit: so you actually pointed that out... I think I need to go to bed soon!

[Fax Celestis]

Do I need to add them to my sig? There's documented cases where CS gave 2 opposite answers to the same question.

Ish. IIRC, one was about TWFing with gauntlets, while other was flurrying and TWFing at the same time. I don't really see any mechanical reason why you can't flurry and TWF at the same time, nor do I see a balance issue with it. At the very least, run some math. TWF + Flurry should come out about the same to Flurry only, due to less-frequently-landing-but-more-frequently-swinging attack patterns.

TWF is a joke anyway, since in order to use it you have to stand still.

[Iku Rex]

From the official FAQ:

The description of the flurry of blows ability says
there’s no such thing as a monk attacking with an off-hand
weapon during a flurry of blows. What does that mean,
exactly? Can the monk make off-hand attacks in addition to
flurry attacks?

Actually, the text to which you refer appears in the entry
for unarmed strikes. When a monk uses her unarmed strike
ability, she does not suffer any penalty for an off-hand attack,
even when she has her hands full and attacks with her knees
and elbows, using the flurry of blows ability to make extra
attacks, or both.
The rules don’t come right out and say that a monk can’t
use an unarmed strike for an off-hand strike (although the exact
wording of the unarmed strike ability suggests otherwise), and
no compelling reason why a monk could not do so exists.
When using an unarmed strike as an off-hand attack, the monk
suffers all the usual attack penalties from two-weapon fighting
(see Table 8–10 in the Player’s Handbook) and the monk adds
only half her Strength bonus (if any) to damage if the off-hand
unarmed strike hits.
To add an off-hand attack to a flurry of blows, stack
whatever two-weapon penalty the monk has with the penalty (if
any) from the flurry. Attacks from the flurry have the monk’s
full damage bonus from Strength, but the off-hand attack gains
only half Strength bonus to damage. If the off-hand attack is a
weapon, that weapon isn’t available for use in the flurry (if it
can be used in a flurry at all, see the previous question). For
example, a 4th-level monk with the Two-Weapon Fighting feat
and a Strength score of 14 decides to use a flurry of blows and
decides to throw in an off-hand attack as well. The monk has a
base attack bonus of +3 and a +2 Strength bonus. With a flurry,
the character can make two attacks, each at +3 (base +3, –2
flurry, +2 Strength). An unarmed strike is a light weapon, so
the monk suffers an additional –2 penalty for both the flurry
and the off-hand attack, and the monk makes three attacks,
each at an attack bonus of +1. The two attacks from the flurry
are primary attacks and add the monk’s full Strength bonus to
damage of +2. The single off-hand attack adds half the monk’s
Strength bonus to damage (+1).
If the monk in our example has two sais to use with the
flurry, plus the off-hand attack, she can use both in the flurry
(in which case she must make the off-hand attack with an
unarmed strike) or one sai for the off-hand attack and one with
the flurry. The sai used in the off-hand attack is not available
for the flurry and vice versa.

Can a monk fight with two weapons? Can she combine
a two-weapon attack with a flurry of blows? What are her
penalties on attack rolls?

A monk can fight with two weapons just like any other
character, but she must accept the normal penalties on her
attack rolls to do so. She can use an unarmed strike as an offhand
weapon. She can even combine two-weapon fighting with
a flurry of blows to gain an extra attack with her off hand (but
remember that she can use only unarmed strikes or special
monk weapons as part of the flurry). The penalties for twoweapon
fighting stack with the penalties for flurry of blows.
For example, at 6th level, the monk Ember can normally
make one attack per round at a +4 bonus. When using flurry of
blows, she can make two attacks (using unarmed strikes or any
special monk weapons she holds), each at a +3 bonus. If she
wants to make an extra attack with her off hand, she has to
accept a –4 penalty on her primary hand attacks and a –8
penalty on her off-hand attacks (assuming she wields a light
weapon in her off hand).
If Ember has Two-Weapon Fighting, she has to accept only
a –2 penalty on all attacks to make an extra attack with her off
hand. Thus, when wielding a light weapon in her off hand
during a flurry of blows, she can make a total of three attacks,
each at a total bonus of +1. At least one of these attacks has to
be with her off-hand weapon.
A 20th-level monk with Greater Two-Weapon Fighting can
make eight attacks per round during a flurry of blows.
Assuming she wields a light weapon in her off hand, her three
off-hand weapon attacks are at +13/+8/+3, and she has five
attacks (at +13/+13/+13/+8/+3) with unarmed strikes or any
weapons she carries in her primary hand. If the same monk also
has Rapid Shot and throws at least one shuriken as part of her
flurry of blows (since Rapid Shot can be used only with ranged
attacks), she can throw one additional shuriken with her
primary hand, but all of her attacks (even melee attacks) suffer
a –2 penalty. Thus, her full attack array looks like this:
+11/+11/+11/+11/+6/+1 primary hand (two must be with
shuriken) and +11/+6/+1 off hand.

[Keld Denar]

Discussed in length here. Both sides presented good arguements, and in my opinion, the result came out as "Its unclear which rule takes precidence over the other, so ask your DM."

Take a read and form your own opinion.

Uh oh. You linked the FAQ. Inc Sstoopidtallkid in 10 seconds to call the Sage an idiot.

10.
9.
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[Sstoopidtallkid]

Uh oh. You linked the FAQ. Inc Sstoopidtallkid in 10 seconds to call the Sage an idiot.

Does it count as you guessing I would if I already did?

[ocato]

Quarterstaff?