[4e]I want to use a fire weapon...but I'm not a tiefling.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

I've recently been thinking about using fire weapons for my paladin. The trouble is, all accounts I've read on the CharOp boards indicate that fire weapons are only useful in the hands of tieflings. My character being a half-elf, the tieflings options are unavailable to me. I know why fire is a poor element to choose for a weapon, as almost every monster and their dog has fire resistance, and radiant energy is a much better choice for paladins in general. On the other hand, fire fits in with my character very well, being a paladin of Pelor and a devotee of the burning, cleansing sun.

Is there any way to even the score for non-tieflings who wanna play with fire? Or should I just forget it?

[Grynning]

Well, radiant damage could easily look and feel like fire. I can't remember right now if there's a weapon enchant for it, but just calling all your radiant stuff "holy fire" and saying it has a red-orange fiery look sounds like a good solution. Hell, Pelor is sometimes called "The Radiant One" so radiance seems to fit you quite well thematically.

Also, fire isn't *only* useful in the hands of tieflings, it's just much better that way. If optimization isn't an issue, just go with it, who cares?

[Archpaladin Zousha]

I was lookin' at this pic for inspiration:



And fire and radiant are supposed to look different aren't they? Radiant as holy white light, like a flashlight or something, while fire looks like...well, fire!

[Grynning]

Powers *look* how YOU want them to look, as long as there's no mechanical change. Fluff is fluff. Same can apply to a weapon. The description of the Radiant Weapon (p. 76 of AV) says that it "Burns with glowing radiant energy." You know what we call burning, radiant energy in real life? Fire.

Edit: The radiant weapon isn't available until higher levels though. There's nothing wrong with sticking with a fire weapon at the heroic tier.

[Mando Knight]

Actually, if you're using radiant powers, a fire sword won't be that bad. I don't think there are any monsters with both radiant and fire resistance other than demons, who are randomly resistant...

...however, for some reason, none of the Charisma based Weapon powers have the radiant keyword. I mean, I see "Radiant" in the keywords, and I look down and it's a Charisma power... and then I see that it's an Implement attack. Seriously.

Oh... wait. There's one. Hospitaller Paragon path's level 20 daily. That's it.

You'd be better off with a Fire & Flame approach if you were a Strength based paladin. Dragonborn or Warforged is preferable.

However, if you've already rolled up the character, at epic levels take Irresistible Flame. Kills the fire resistance of almost anything... except Tiamat and the older Red dragons.


Perhaps we'll just have to wait for Divine Power and/or PHB II.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Here's my build-plan, if it helps any. My character hasn't made it to level 2 yet.

Character Information

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Race: Half-Elf
Class: Paladin (Multiclass: Warlord).
Paragon Path: Knight Commander.
Epic Destiny: Demigod.

Starting Ability Scores:
Str 14, Con 13, Dex 12, Int 10, Wis 13, Cha 18.

Ability Score Boosts:
4 - +1 Dex, +1 Cha
8 - +1 Dex, +1 Str
11 - +1 to all
14 - +1 Str, +1 Cha
18 - +1 Str, +1 Dex
21 - +1 to all (Demigod: +2 Str, +2 Cha)
24 - (Unsure at the moment)
28 - (Unsure at the moment)

Final Ability Scores (by level 21):
Str 21, Con 15, Dex 17, Int 12, Wis 15, Cha 24.

Trained Skills:
Diplomacy, Endurance (from Student of Battle), Heal, Insight, Religion

Gear:
Bastard Sword, Heavy Shield, Plate Armor

Power Selection

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1, At-Will: Holy Strike, Bolstering Strike.
1, Encounter: Piercing Stirke, Furious Smash (from Dilletante).
1, Daily: Radiant Delirium.
2, Utility: Astral Speech (replaced with Shake It Off after multiclassing).
3, Encounter: Righteous Smite.
5, Daily: Sign of Vulnerability.
6, Utility: Wrath of the Gods.
7, Encounter: Thunder Smite.
9, Daily: Radiant Pulse.
10, Utility: Cleansing Spirit.
11, Encounter: Slash and Press.
12, Utility: Break Their Nerve.
13, Encounter: Renewing Strike (replaces Piercing Strike).
15, Daily: True Nemesis (replaces Radiant Pulse).
16, Utility: Death Ward.
17, Encounter: Hand of the Gods (replaces Thunder Smite).
19, Daily: Righteous Inferno (replaces Radiant Delirium).
20, Daily: Control the Field.
22, Utility:.
23, Encounter:.
25, Daily:.
26, Utility: Divine Regeneration.
27, Encounter:.
29, Daily:.

Feat Selection

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1. Weapon Proficiency (bastard sword)
2. Group Insight
4. Human Perseverance
6. Student of Battle (Endurance)
8. Acolyte Power
10. Astral Fire (retrained for Heavy Blade Opportunity at 11)
11. Shield Specialization
12. Action Recovery
14. Danger Sense
16. Point Blank Shot
18. Improved Initiative
20. Weapon Focus (heavy blades)
21. Heavy Blade Mastery
22.
24.
26.
28.
30.

[/QUOTE]

[Grynning]

I'm just waiting for the Tylenol PM to kick in at this point, so unfortunately I can't give too many pointers on the build. Looks fine to me overall. Honestly the type of magic weapon you use doesn't make a heck of a lot of difference in 4th ed, it's just some of them have better daily powers. Also remember it will depend heavily on what the DM makes available.

[KKL]

Just use the blasted flaming sword, tiny mechanical advantage or not. It's a flaming sword, what's not to like about it, fire resistance aside? Note that your sword isn't flaming. It's either flaming or flaming, never flaming.

[Mauril Everleaf]

I'm AFB right now, but I'm pretty sure that Point Blank Shot only works with ranged weapons, so unless you plan on hurling that Bastard Sword, you may consider picking up something more useful. If you hadn't planned to immediately train out of Astral Fire, I was going to comment on that one too. Since you have taken the Student of Battle feat, you would qualify for some of the Warlord feats from Martial Power, if you have access to it. You may look at some of those.

[Starsinger]

Remember, you can always turn the fire damage off.

[Prak]

Is there any way to even the score for non-tieflings who wanna play with fire? Or should I just forget it?

Yes, there is a way.

1)Put down the 4th edition book, maybe even in a nice roaring fire.
2)Run to the nearest available set of 3.5 books
3)Play 3.5 and be glad that it's not as frakked up as 4th.



(I was sorely tempted to make step 2 "..." and step 3 "profit!!")

[archmage45]

Yes, there is a way.

1)Put down the 4th edition book, maybe even in a nice roaring fire.
2)Run to the nearest available set of 3.5 books
3)Play 3.5 and be glad that it's not as frakked up as 4th.



(I was sorely tempted to make step 2 "..." and step 3 "profit!!")

1. Note that this is a 4e thread.
2. Refrain from 3.5 suggestions
3. ...
4. Profit!

[Oracle_Hunter]

Yes, there is a way.

1)Put down the 4th edition book, maybe even in a nice roaring fire.
2)Run to the nearest available set of 3.5 books
3)Play 3.5 and be glad that it's not as frakked up as 4th.

Listen, the reason that CharOp says "Fire for Tieflings only" is because Tieflings get a ridiculous feat that gives the +1 to hit and damage for Fire and Fear attacks. You are not gimping your character by walking around with a fire sword; yes many monsters are resistant to it, but you can turn it off too. It's still a +X sword, and that'll let you hit and damage with your Paladin powers. Plus, all the other non-fire resistant monsters can still be affected by the sword's Daily. And let's be honest: it's always fun to set zombies on fire.

Just go with it, you'll be fine. Trust me.

[The Mormegil]

Aside from anti-4E comments, and just skipping the comments we could make about what you just said, let's talk about flaming swords.

Well, sure, they are bad, but not THAT bad... And they have got their uses. Personally, I'd just reflavor a Sunlade, but... if you really want to keep the fire damage, I'd just grab it and use it, and enjoy it. End of question. Maybe it's not the best weapon you could get, but... it's not the worse either. And don't forget that it depends mostly on your DM what magic items you'll have, since selling and buying is discouraged. So be nice to him...

[Prak]

Listen, the reason that CharOp says "Fire for Tieflings only" is because Tieflings get a ridiculous feat that gives the +1 to hit and damage for Fire and Fear attacks. You are not gimping your character by walking around with a fire sword; yes many monsters are resistant to it, but you can turn it off too. It's still a +X sword, and that'll let you hit and damage with your Paladin powers. Plus, all the other non-fire resistant monsters can still be affected by the sword's Daily. And let's be honest: it's always fun to set zombies on fire.

Just go with it, you'll be fine. Trust me.

rediculous feat... +1 to hit and damage... with fire and fear attacks...

I rest my case...

but, that aside, it deriously does sound like you'd be fine with a non-tiefling weilding fire.

[Oracle_Hunter]

rediculous feat... +1 to hit and damage... with fire and fear attacks...

I rest my case...

Not to get into a whole 4E discussion but feats that grant a bonus to hit in 4E are few and far between. In fact, all the other similar feats (Astral Fire for example) only provide +1 damage. For whatever reason, Tieflings get a serious boost and nobody else does. That's what makes it ridiculous.

Hopefully this is edifying to you.

[Prak]

Ok, yes, it's rediculous compared to 4e feats... but if you compare 4e feats to 3.5 feats.... well, it's rediculous in an entirely different way...

[fractic]

Not to get into a whole 4E discussion but feats that grant a bonus to hit in 4E are few and far between. In fact, all the other similar feats (Astral Fire for example) only provide +1 damage. For whatever reason, Tieflings get a serious boost and nobody else does. That's what makes it ridiculous.

Don't forget that Astral Fire and the similar feats actually get +1 damage per tier while Hellfire blood doesn't scale at all.

[KKL]

Tieflings get a serious boost

The +1 to hit with Fire/Fear isn't even as ridiculous as say...Tiefling TWF Fighters with the entire Cunning Ambusher/Infernal Wrath/whatever else in Martial Power.

I witnessed firsthand a TWF Tiefling Fighter deal just around 350ish damage in a single turn using a single attack form quicksilver stance, dual strike, and rain of blows. The rain of blows was also entirely unneeded, he just wanted to go all out. True, the entire fight was him attacking and destroying his HP via bloowclaw, but that kind of damage is retarded silly.

It's a boost, yes, but it's not the end of the world, or ridiculous.

Prak, I kindly request you to leave this topic. Completely. Just, go.

[Blackfang108]

Which Warlord At-Will are you taking for "Student of Battle"?

Personally, I'd reccommend Wolf Pack Tactics, if you have a Rogue or Ranger.

[The Mormegil]

Which Warlord At-Will are you taking for "Student of Battle"?

Personally, I'd reccommend Wolf Pack Tactics, if you have a Rogue or Ranger.

I think Student of Battle is the PHB feat, so it's inspiring word 1/day.

The +1 to hit with Fire/Fear isn't even as ridiculous as say...Tiefling TWF Fighters with the entire Cunning Ambusher/Infernal Wrath/whatever else in Martial Power.

I witnessed firsthand a TWF Tiefling Fighter deal just around 350ish damage in a single turn using a single attack form quicksilver stance, dual strike, and rain of blows. The rain of blows was also entirely unneeded, he just wanted to go all out. True, the entire fight was him attacking and destroying his HP via bloowclaw, but that kind of damage is retarded silly.

It's a boost, yes, but it's not the end of the world, or ridiculous.

Hmmm... may I ask how is it possible? It would be kinda intresting...

Also, it's not ridiculous, it's just the only way for Tieflings to be able to melee, even if they lack the needed stat bonuses. Not even going into Sordmage territory here, anyway. I mean Martial melee.

[KKL]

Hmmm... may I ask how is it possible?

Actually, I'm not too great at explaining, so I'll just link you to the character's stats. Ishi.

[Hzurr]

This thread actually makes me a bit sad.

1st off, not wanting to take something just because it isn't teh ooober optiml choiz!!!11!! seems silly. As a few other people have mentioned, it isn't a build-breaking choice. So you don't qualify for 1 feat. Big deal??

Also, you're level 2, and you know every power you'll be taking for the next 20+ levels? I mean, having an idea about where you're headed is one thing, but to me this takes some of the joy out of leveling up and of character growth, because all the decisions have already been made.

I recognize that this is mainly a difference in play style between the origional poster and I, but it still makes me sad.

Anyway, I agree that you should go with what your concept is. Who cares if you're not the most awesome fighter ever made? You'll still be effective, and you'll still have fun.

[The Mormegil]

Heh, there really IS everything on wikipedia... Anyway, I don't think the problem is with Tieflings. It's with Tempest Fighters, Double Swords and Rain of Blows.

EDIT: I just realized that the same character could have been even better focusing on Wis and going Pit Fighter/Marked Scourge. And that's not really Tiefling dependant...

[Blackfang108]

I think Student of Battle is the PHB feat, so it's inspiring word 1/day.

Right...

I'm playing AS a warlord...

I keep forgetting that.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

First off, I plan on playing both 3.5 and 4e. Best of both worlds. Let's drop the comparisons between editions now.

Secondly, I believe Point Blank Shot is there for the ranged attack powers.

Thirdly, it's been reccomended that there is another "entry" feat for multiclassing into Warlord that's ultimately more effective.

[Mando Knight]

Actually, I just thought of this: Don't take Weapon Focus. You've got a flaming sword, which adds the "Fire" keyword to your attacks, and thus qualifies for Astral Fire. Almost everyone on the boards everywhere agrees with the surprisingly consistent (For CustServ and the Errata) ruling that Weapon Focus and Astral Fire don't stack.

Astral Fire applies to more attacks than Weapon Focus if you're a paladin with a firey or radiant weapon, and Irresistible Flame is probably more important than Heavy Blade Mastery...

[Mauril Everleaf]

Good point Mando. Both add a +1 feat bonus, which doesn't stack. And in regards to Point Blank Shot, I for some reason under the impression that the text said "ranged weapon attacks" but it does not. Carry on then. Nothing to see here.

[Asbestos]

Secondly, I believe Point Blank Shot is there for the ranged attack powers.

I'd suggest Impetuous Charger or Phalanx Warrior here if you want to have a more leader-like feel.

Thirdly, it's been reccomended that there is another "entry" feat for multiclassing into Warlord that's ultimately more effective.

Well, the one that you meet the prereqs for is called 'Inspiring Leader', its in Martial Power. Instead of Inspiring Word 1/day you can act like a watered down inspiring presence warlord 1/encounter. If your party is leaderless it might be better than a 1/day heal.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Inspiring leader was the one I was thinking of. Is it a good idea to abandon Weapon Focus and Heavy Blade Mastery though? The Paladin's Handbook says Weapon Focus is essential for every paladin right from the start, except for dwarves, who get Dwarven Weapon Training.