Elite or non-elite array? That is the question

[Laharal]

In the monster manual p.290, they suggest the elite array for an NPC with aPC class. However, here and there some people say that elite array should be rare.. and in the corebooks they say elite array represent the PC.

My question is: If I was to create an army of let's say Orc Fighters, should I use elite or non-elite array or is it such a minor detail that I can flip a coin?

I don't care about ''real world representativity" of it.. just about playability.

[archmage45]

That depends. By using elite you'll make it slightly harder for your PCs. By using Standard it'll make your PCs more special. What's your play style?

[Morty]

I'd say that depends on whether those orcs are supposed to be elite soldiers or simply a bit better than grunts represented by 1st level warriors from MM.

[RTGoodman]

Look at the word itself - Elite. It implies something special. Your tooth-gnashing, foaming-at-the-mouth orc army probably ISN'T going to be that special. Even if they have a PC class level (an Orc with a level or two of Fighter, for instance), they're probably not THAT special. Just give them a non-elite array and let them rely on their racial modifiers to give them a boost. If you give them the Elite array, they're a much harder challenge. (I think it's a +1 CR for using the Elite array, and that's for EACH Orc.)

However, the Orc Barbarian/Fighter warlord that leads them, effectively an equal of the PCs, probably WOULD have the Elite Array, or maybe even rolled or point-buy based stats. He SHOULD have better stats - that's why he's in charge, and why he's the one the PCs should worry about more (instead of the low-level mooks that he leads).

[Laharal]

Many thanks

Found it : p 294 MM: Cr + 1 for elite array but not to be applied if the creature has PC class.

I think I'll give them the non-elite array since I want to produce a bunch of them like you guys are saying. And anyway as far-fetched as it may seems, my Dm uses modifier from 2.0 so...

Btw I'm not a GM.. I'm creating mobs for my GM who has a hard-time with all the 3.5 over-rule part...Since I'm quite..euhm masochist... I help him ;)

I'll try to make Orc warriors and fighters up to lvl 10 and Ogre barbarians too (I these ones they are in the DmG though )

Many thanks

[Mando Knight]

The idea behind using the elite array for NPCs is that the guide assumes you're going to make a "tough guy" rather than "normal mook," since you can find a lot of mooks in the Mook Monster Manual.

[Tsotha-lanti]

The balance - and almost all examples - assume that anyone/anything with PC class levels has the Elite array (free of charge; without class levels, it add +1 CR). NPC class levels (warrior, adept, etc.) come with the 13, 12, 11, 10, 9, 8 array.

If PCs get a higher starting array, the DM should probably give that in place of the Elite array.

[Shishnarfne]

Many thanks

Found it : p 294 MM: Cr + 1 for elite array but not to be applied if the creature has PC class.

I think I'll give them the non-elite array since I want to produce a bunch of them like you guys are saying. And anyway as far-fetched as it may seems, my Dm uses modifier from 2.0 so...

Btw I'm not a GM.. I'm creating mobs for my GM who has a hard-time with all the 3.5 over-rule part...Since I'm quite..euhm masochist... I help him ;)

I'll try to make Orc warriors and fighters up to lvl 10 and Ogre barbarians too (I these ones they are in the DmG though )

Many thanks

Underlined a key word for you... I'm kicking myself for the vampires I made for my DM... Why, oh why did I decide vampire fighters could benefit from combining Whirlwind Attack and Power Attack against a low WBL party? I'm also afraid of the Vampiric Sorceror/Archmage.

But, yes, if you're going for basic cannon fodder orcs, if your PC's are at roughly the elite array, I'd agree with using a weaker array for those.

[AslanCross]

Stock monsters in the Monster Manuals all have the standard array (11, 11, 11, 10, 10, 10, arranged according to need) unless stipulated otherwise. Those are the grunts whom you let your PCs walk over. In the standard orc horde, your Orc Warrior 1 would use the standard array. An Orc Berserker (Bbn 1) might have the nonelite array, while the warchief (and probably his elite guard) might have the elite array.

[Curmudgeon]

p 294 MM: Cr + 1 for elite array but not to be applied if the creature has PC class.

An Orc Berserker (Bbn 1) might have the nonelite array

That doesn't seem to fit with what the MM advises. Since it's got a PC class, it should use the elite array.

[Laharal]

Yep but like one person said.... I want a bunch of dooods... not an epic archvilain ;)

Thanks for your input though ;)

[Defiant]

I'll add my voice to the choir. Nonelite array for mooks and grunts. Elite array for special people, like lieutenants or "minibosses".

[Draz74]

Stock monsters in the Monster Manuals all have the standard array (11, 11, 11, 10, 10, 10, arranged according to need) unless stipulated otherwise.

But, like most intelligent mortal humanoids, the Orc does stipulate otherwise.

Yep but like one person said.... I want a bunch of dooods... not an epic archvilain ;)

Then, technically, the rules say you should be making Warriors rather than Fighters. Then there would be no confusion about which array to use (non-Elite).

[Devils_Advocate]

Yeah, mooks are Warriors with the nonelite array. Elite troops could be Fighters with the elite array. Barbarian is generally more appropriate to orcs than Fighter, but then raiding party is generally more appropriate to orcs than army. I'm guessing these guys have some special deal going on.

The MM tells you to increase CR by 1 if you add the elite array to a monster with no class levels. It also tells you to give a monster the elite array for free if you give it class levels.

So, by RAW, giving a classless monster one associated class level or two nonassociated class levels and the elite array only increases its CR by as much as just giving it the elite array. Which makes no sense.

Obviously, a class level and replacing 11, 11, 11, 10, 10, 10 with 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8 is better than just a class level. And just adding an associated class level is enough to bump CR by 1 when the monster already has PC levels. It only gets free, significant increases to its ability scores with its first PC level. Yet its first class level improves it roughly as much on its own as additional levels, discounting the ability increases.

Conclusion: Giving a monster the elite array should increase its CR by 1, period. So a succubus Rogue 1 with the elite array should be CR 9, for example. If you just give her the Rogue level without the elite array, then she's CR 8. Same as if you gave her the elite array but no levels.

Of course, all of this is for monsters with multiple racial hit dice, not orcs, goblins, pixies, etc.

AslanCross, Warriors (and other NPC-classed monsters) use the nonelite array. This is noted in their individual entries, as well as here. PC-classed monsters use the elite array. Contrast the ogre Barbarian to the standard ogre.

[Tsotha-lanti]

Stock monsters in the Monster Manuals all have the standard array (11, 11, 11, 10, 10, 10, arranged according to need) unless stipulated otherwise. Those are the grunts whom you let your PCs walk over. In the standard orc horde, your Orc Warrior 1 would use the standard array. An Orc Berserker (Bbn 1) might have the nonelite array, while the warchief (and probably his elite guard) might have the elite array.

Nope, like I already said, creatures with an NPC class have 13, 12, 11, 10, 9, 8. The orcs, goblins, elves, etc. in the MM are all War1s, and all have that array.

Obviously, a class level and replacing 11, 11, 11, 10, 10, 10 with 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8 is better than just a class level. And just adding an associated class level is enough to bump CR by 1 when the monster already has PC levels. It only gets free, significant increases to its ability scores with its first PC level. Yet its first class level improves it roughly as much on its own as additional levels, discounting the ability increases.

Conclusion: Giving a monster the elite array should increase its CR by 1, period. So a succubus Rogue 1 with the elite array should be CR 9, for example. If you just give her the Rogue level without the elite array, then she's CR 8. Same as if you gave her the elite array but no levels.

This doesn't jive with any examples. The elite array is free with a PC level. The ogre barbarian is a good example: base CR 3, +4 for 4 associated PC levels, total CR 7. It has the elite array. The same is evident if you look at trolls, etc.

[AslanCross]

That doesn't seem to fit with what the MM advises. Since it's got a PC class, it should use the elite array.

My bad, I forgot about that.

[kamikasei]

This doesn't jive with any examples. The elite array is free with a PC level. The ogre barbarian is a good example: base CR 3, +4 for 4 associated PC levels, total CR 7. It has the elite array. The same is evident if you look at trolls, etc.

I don't think Devils_Advocate (you attributed the quote incorrectly, BTW) was saying this is how things do work in the books, but that it's how things should work. It's a flaw in the CR system that you can take a monster and give it the elite array and bump its CR by one, or give it a level in a PC class (which includes the elite array along with increased HD, BAB, saves etc) and it's still an increase of one despite clearly being a larger gain.

[Kizara]

Give signifigant monsters stats the same way the PCs generate stats.

Don't overdue this, as it will make them feel less heroic and such.

Nonetheless, challenge your players. Throw power attacking barbarians with 18 base strength at them etc. Make them earn their victories.

[ericgrau]

I forget where, but IIRC somewhere it describes a typical town with several people with NPC classes and a few with PC classes. And anything with levels in a PC class gets the elite array. I'd pick a ratio and go with it; maybe 10-20% of things that have more than a couple levels (and things with more than a couple levels are only a portion of the whole army). I just pulled that percent out of the air, btw, you may come up with something else. I do think it should happen more often than every monster with a name.

[Epinephrine]

I give elite array to all NPC/enemies with levels within a couple of the party. If they're mini-bosses etc. they get stats more similar to the PCs (higher than Elite array). If they're really just mooks I don't bother altering stats.

Example: Party faces orc shaman (4th), lieutenant (3rd), and 3 orc barbarians (2nd). Party is 3rd level. Shaman and lietenant get point-buy stats of a reasonable amount, elite array to the barbarians.

Later on, at 5th level, they hit a similar patrol? Orc barbarians I probably don't alter from base stats (or possibly I have a very basic entry for them with non-elite array), elite array for the shaman and the lieutenant. At this point they're more of a small diversion, meant to be avoided or cause the PCs to risk being heard, possibly to deplete some resources and make things tense, in the sense that they'd represent one of several such groups moving around. They're not a big fight. At 3rd level they were a huge, very dangerous encounter, but not anymore. Another level or two and I'd be using them as fodder.

[Devils_Advocate]

I don't think Devils_Advocate (you attributed the quote incorrectly, BTW) was saying this is how things do work in the books, but that it's how things should work. It's a flaw in the CR system that you can take a monster and give it the elite array and bump its CR by one, or give it a level in a PC class (which includes the elite array along with increased HD, BAB, saves etc) and it's still an increase of one despite clearly being a larger gain.

Precisely. Creatures of the same CR are supposed to be equally tough challenges. And while in many cases there is legitimate ambiguity as to whether one creature is a tougher challenge than another, there is no such ambiguity in this case. You can create a creature that has stats strictly better than the stats of another creature with the same RAW CR. And not better by a degree small enough that it should be rounded off, better by a degree that is normally explicitly worth a one-point increase in CR. It's a straight-up malfunction in the rules.

Adding one associated class level or two nonassociated class levels is supposed to increase a monster's CR by 1. Giving the elite array to a creature with the standard array is enough of an improvement to increase its CR by 1; I agree with the RAW there. I disagree with the RAW when it says that doing these two things in combination also only increases CR by 1, instead of by a total of 2. That... makes absolutely no sense. It's a special case in which the DM is told to increase CR only by 1 when making two adjustments to a creature's stats, each of which by itself is worth +1 CR.

This is a relatively minor goof in the rules, and you can ignore it without much harm, but it's also a blatant goof and it's obvious how the rules in question ought to work, so I just thought I'd point it out.

This is in addition to usual observations that listed Challenge Ratings should be treated as guidelines anyway, some monsters are blatantly tougher or weaker than other monsters of the same CR and should have their CRs adjusted up or down accordingly, etc.

Edit: The Troll Hunter's stats are just messed up. It has an array of 17, 14, 14, 13, 10, 8 (13, 8, 10, 14, 17, 14 in order) before racial modifiers. Take out stat boosts from level, and that leaves 15, 14, 14, 13, 10, 8, instead of the normal 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8 it should have.

More egregiously, if not "wrong" in a strict sense, one of those 14s goes to Charisma of all things, and an 8 gets stuck in Dexterity.

Edit Edit: It's also built to fight melee in a way that doesn't work with its natural Rend attack. They could have given it a good ranged attack instead. Feh!

[Tacoma]

Give them the Mook Array: 6, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1

And put the 6 in their dump stat.