Spells ranged touch attack?

[rubycona]

Hello.

Just got a Q&A RAW answer on this which I find highly, highly questionable.

I was asking for a reminder on how ranged touch attacks work for spells, and he said add dex + BAB... Dex? For a wizard? Not Int?

That makes no sense. I was thinking it was Int + BAB, but wasn't sure if caster level got in there somehow.

Could anyone help clarify this? Thankies! Oooh, and while you're here, what do primary spellcasters generally do to get around the whole spells/day limit? Particularly in regards to my game's human wizard? Just hoping to pass along some tips, since he's new to the game.

[Seffbasilisk]

Dex + Bab.

Rings of Wizardry and Pearls of power, as well as scribing scrolls get past the spells per day limit.

[Draz74]

Yep, Dex.

And to be honest, the most popular tactic for getting around Spells/Day limits is to quit and rest as soon as you're low on spells, even if you haven't been fighting very long that day. Possibly helped out by shelter-creating spells like Rope Trick. This leads to the "15-minute workday" of adventurers, with one or two battles.

[Starsinger]

Hello.

Just got a Q&A RAW answer on this which I find highly, highly questionable.

I was asking for a reminder on how ranged touch attacks work for spells, and he said add dex + BAB... Dex? For a wizard? Not Int?

That makes no sense. I was thinking it was Int + BAB, but wasn't sure if caster level got in there somehow.

Could anyone help clarify this? Thankies! Oooh, and while you're here, what do primary spellcasters generally do to get around the whole spells/day limit? Particularly in regards to my game's human wizard? Just hoping to pass along some tips, since he's new to the game.

Indeed it's dexterity + BAB. You'd think you'd add your casting stat, but no, you don't, which seems kinda dumb to me, too.

As for the wizard, a good way around that is reserve feats, assuming you have Complete Mage. Reserve feats let you cast a spell-like-ability at will as long as you have a similar spell uncast in your spellbook (or spells/day if you're a Sorcerer or other spontaneous casters). For example if you had burning hands prepared you could shoot a 1d4 (or is it 1d6?) fireblast at-will, until you cast burning hands (assuming you only have 1st level spells).

[Tacoma]

The rules assume a ranged touch attack is an aim-related thing. It's questionable but Dexterity actually is your whole-body agility, your small-task digital dexterity, and your aim.

Your spells per day is a pretty tough constraint at low level. I suggest a couple ideas:

1: Memorize a couple spells that help make resting safer and easier, maybe even faster. This way you can get everyone to take a rest and you can get your spells back without intervening encounters.

2: Memorize spells you're most likely to use. If you find yourself never using a spell on your standard memorized list, chuck it for something else.

3: Spell storing items are over time better choices than scrolls. You can refill them for free just by casting the spell into them, which over time costs less than replacement of scrolls. You can get powerful NPCs to cast spells into your storing items for you as a one-time boost. These spells don't even need to be from your spell list, AFAIK.

4: Scrolls if you must. It's better to put spells on scrolls that you might find a use for one day, but you don't want to memorize because you'll only ever need it once. Better than wasting a spell slot on the little-used spell but burning through the Fireball scrolls all the time.

5: Uses per day or use-activated non-charged magic items for effects for which level matters little. Light, Cure Light Wounds, etc. Choose spells for items like this that you will use all the time, freeing up your memorized slots for spells for which your level makes a difference.

6: Don't use metamagic feats.

EDIT: I second the call for Ring of Wizardry and Pearls of Power.

Also

7: Use your spells sparingly. It's okay to blast away with your crossbow at the end of a fight when everyone's doing okay rather than using up a Magic Missile that could be better used at the start of a second fight, or to finish off an enemy who threatens an injured or incapacitated party member.

[rubycona]

Heh.

Ok, so wizards are int/dex builds, then.

Well, how would a wizard (or any other spellcaster for that matter) increase his ATB? I loved the 4e approach on the matter, with the spell focuses with enhancement bonuses, but as I recall, 3.5 didn't have anything like that.

I'm highly considering house ruling in Int + BAB + enhance bonus on non-combat focus for ATB, and + int for damage. Just because that makes more sense to me >.> Wizards get such lousy BAB...

[Blackfang108]

As for the wizard, a good way around that is reserve feats, assuming you have Complete Mage. Reserve feats let you cast a spell-like-ability at will as long as you have a similar spell uncast in your spellbook (or spells/day if you're a Sorcerer or other spontaneous casters). For example if you had burning hands prepared you could shoot a 1d4 (or is it 1d6?) fireblast at-will, until you cast burning hands (assuming you only have 1st level spells).

Seconded. Reserve feats are THE ****.

As a duskblade who often scouts, I've found Dimension Jaunt to be a great utility feat.

"The door's locked."
"Let me see what's on the other side before someone tries to pick it."
*poof*
*door opens from the other side*
"Come on in, guys."
(we don't have anyone who can reliably detect traps and pick locks.)

(Although EVERYONE has Greater Open.)

But yeah, the combat oriented ones are great for Pure Spellcasters.

[Douglas]

Hello.

Just got a Q&A RAW answer on this which I find highly, highly questionable.

I was asking for a reminder on how ranged touch attacks work for spells, and he said add dex + BAB... Dex? For a wizard? Not Int?

In 3.x, ranged attacks are BAB + dex. What the ranged attack is for doesn't matter, just that it's ranged. There are a few feats or abilities that change this, but they all explicitly say so and I don't think any of them are class abilities. Intelligence affects a wizard's save DCs and spells per day only.

Could anyone help clarify this? Thankies! Oooh, and while you're here, what do primary spellcasters generally do to get around the whole spells/day limit? Particularly in regards to my game's human wizard? Just hoping to pass along some tips, since he's new to the game.

Generally, they don't. The limit is there for a reason, and anything that allows ignoring it entirely had better have a huge drawback to go with it.

There are ways to increase the limit, but not very much unless you have a ridiculous amount of money to spend.

Rings of Wizardry and Pearls of Power, as mentioned by Seffbasilisk, do work but are pretty expensive. Scrolls, wands, and potions can help but must be replaced at considerable cost once used and generally have lower caster level and save DC than if you cast it yourself. If you're really hurting for endurance, the Reserve feats from Complete Mage can give you an unlimited use pseudo-spell, but you have to hold a high level spell in reserve to power it and the effect is far less powerful than actually casting the spell would be - it's a tradeoff of power for endurance.

[Fax Celestis]

Weeeeeeeeeeeell...there are methods. There's probably a familiar out there that gives a +1 to ranged attacks. You can take Weapon Focus (Ray) (see, look, it's right in the description!) for a +1, but generally you'd be better off with metamagic.

If you're really interested in sniping, then I'll recommend now that you look at the Warlock base class from Complete Arcane, and at the Spellwarp Sniper prestige class from Complete Scoundrel. Going Rogue 1/Wizard 5/Spellwarp Sniper 5 is a pretty solid ray-caster, though using Spellthief (Complete Adventurer) instead of Rogue and taking the Master Spellthief feat (Complete Scoundrel or excerpt) will make you less squishy (since you can cast in light armor) and also better able to snipe since you can turn some Area spells into rays.

More simply, a decent method might be something like Barbarian 1/Wizard 5/Eldritch Knight (or Knight Phantom) 10, since you'll advance your spellcasting and your BAB at the same time.

[Tacoma]

Heh.

Ok, so wizards are int/dex builds, then.

Well, how would a wizard (or any other spellcaster for that matter) increase his ATB? I loved the 4e approach on the matter, with the spell focuses with enhancement bonuses, but as I recall, 3.5 didn't have anything like that.

I'm highly considering house ruling in Int + BAB + enhance bonus on non-combat focus for ATB, and + int for damage. Just because that makes more sense to me >.> Wizards get such lousy BAB...

It's usually a good idea to spread a class's stat dependency around. Ideally every class would need every stat so no stat is truly a "dump stat" with no downside. Alas, 3E.

True Strike is an obvious choice. I'd never agree to a "True Strike constantly, as in every attack" magic item because that's just completely out of whack with the spell level 1 cast at level 1. But if you can get True Strike on an item that you activate as a Free Action or a Move Action, you could get one solid spell off per round. Otherwise it's once per two rounds because you activate True Strike one round and shoot the next. But it's better than shooting on both rounds, missing twice, and burning the two ranged touch spells.

An alternative is to create feats or a PrC specifically to fill the ranged touch spell role. If it's a PrC, you're trading more spells for better targeting with those spells. If it's a feat you're trading whatever cool save related or SR related punchthrough feats for attack roll with spells.

If you use a lot of Ray spells, or you make up new variants on existing spells to give them Ray form, you can often skirt the saving throw in exchange for a required ranged touch roll. And a Ray can be a choice for Weapon Focus (and we assume, Weapon Specialization if you take Fighter).

You can have your Familiar use its action as Aid Another every round. On you. Instant +2. On the plus side, your DM forgets you have a familiar for targeting purposes. Just say the familiar is on your shoulder or in your special backpack house you made for it, and take its figure off the mat.

Heck, Monster Summoning I. Have them all stand in front of you and Aid you. +2 each. Is there a limit on how many creatures can use Aid Another on one recipient?

Since damage bonuses often don't work on spells, even Rays, you can focus on getting Attack bonuses from magic items.

Create a feat that's like an opposite Power Attack: take a penalty to damage in exchange for an Attack bonus. Get another that's a reverse Expertise for AC and Attack. You should have an irrationally high AC as a Wizard anyway. And your DM will notice less if you have high Attack than either high Damage or AC, both of which he has a sliding scale for. Attack appears to the target as more of a binary "hit or miss." The actual Attack number doesn't seem to register until he throws a monster at you with such high AC he expects nobody to be able to hit it.
Both those feats should be able to get you an extra +10 to hit together. The expanded version of each raises it to +20 together total.

[Telonius]

I believe the justification for it is that it's treated as a ranged attack roll; and (standard) ranged attack rolls rely on Dex rather than Strength. The fact that it's a touch attack makes it disregard armor, etc.

[Douglas]

Heh.

Ok, so wizards are int/dex builds, then.

Only if they focus on ranged touch spells. If a spell just targets someone or hits an area, no attack roll is required and your ranged attack bonus is irrelevant.

Well, how would a wizard (or any other spellcaster for that matter) increase his ATB? I loved the 4e approach on the matter, with the spell focuses with enhancement bonuses, but as I recall, 3.5 didn't have anything like that.

I'm highly considering house ruling in Int + BAB + enhance bonus on non-combat focus for ATB, and + int for damage. Just because that makes more sense to me >.> Wizards get such lousy BAB...

A wizard's BAB is just fine as it is. Remember, almost all attack rolls a typical wizard ever makes are vs touch AC, which is usually a great deal lower than full AC. BAB + dex will hit quite enough of the time even with a wizard's lousy progression and no other bonuses, and it is trivial to build a wizard who never even makes attack rolls in the first place.

Oh, and they don't need more damage either. 1d6/level as the base with no optimization at all is quite enough to compete with a similar level of optimization from other classes already, significant optimization can pump that to insane levels if you really want to focus on it, and there are so many better things wizards can do than damage anyway. Would you rather do slightly more (maybe) damage with a spell than your fighter buddy does with his unlimited use sword, or blind the enemy so he's almost helpless?

[Shpadoinkle]

Heh.

Ok, so wizards are int/dex builds, then.

Well, how would a wizard (or any other spellcaster for that matter) increase his ATB? I loved the 4e approach on the matter, with the spell focuses with enhancement bonuses, but as I recall, 3.5 didn't have anything like that.

I'm highly considering house ruling in Int + BAB + enhance bonus on non-combat focus for ATB, and + int for damage. Just because that makes more sense to me >.> Wizards get such lousy BAB...

Great idea, make the third most powerful class in the game even stronger! Hell, how about they get to add thier INT modifier to saving throws and get it as bonus HP every level instead of thier CON bonus! That's an awesome idea!

[Defiant]

You're trying to shoot a beam at your opponent. This is dependent on your Dexterity (hand-eye coordination), rather than Intelligence.

Intelligence is important for being able to cast spells and getting bonus spells per day.

[Fax Celestis]

Great idea, make the third most powerful class in the game even stronger! Hell, how about they get to add thier INT modifier to saving throws and get it as bonus HP every level instead of thier CON bonus! That's an awesome idea!

Your sarcasm is unnecessary and rude.

[rubycona]

Great idea, make the third most powerful class in the game even stronger! Hell, how about they get to add thier INT modifier to saving throws and get it as bonus HP every level instead of thier CON bonus! That's an awesome idea!

O.o Give me a break, I was thinking outloud.

Wizards may be really capable, I don't deny that... but they can get hurt Really badly by situations, IE an extensive battle. I never play a wizard because, this is me personally, I prefer a constant, reliable ability (such as arrow slinging) over an ability that up and goes away. Particularly low level casters have major problems with their limits... I played an elf sorcerer once and had to use my bow most of the time.

I was wondering if there was maybe a better way, one that would incorporate more variability in ATB, more use of int (since other stats tend to actually do a fair bit), or more reliable dmg (which + int would do). That's all my comment was.

[Fax Celestis]

I was wondering if there was maybe a better way, one that would incorporate more variability in ATB, more use of int (since other stats tend to actually do a fair bit), or more reliable dmg (which + int would do). That's all my comment was.

Then it sounds like the Warlock (CArc) and/or the Dragonfire Adept (Dragon Magic) are right up your alley. They're like casters, except they get less spells known for the ability to cast them a nigh-infinite number of times per day.

[rubycona]

Then it sounds like the Warlock (CArc) and/or the Dragonfire Adept (Dragon Magic) are right up your alley. They're like casters, except they get less spells known for the ability to cast them a nigh-infinite number of times per day.

Nice. So if I were a player instead of DMing, I may actually be a spellcaster for once :P This is nice.

Buuut, my friend has a human wizard. A lot here has been helpful, thank you :)

[Tacoma]

Don't forget Aid Another and other such tactics that you can use for other rear-friendly friends like the party archer.

[Tokiko Mima]

Also, keep in mind that while ranged touch attacks are sometimes tough to make at low levels, they advance a long a weird path where your attack bonus goes up at a constant rate, and the number you have to beat with your roll tends to go *down.* The larger a monster gets (and they tend to get bigger as you advance in levels), the easier it is to hit them with touch attacks, because Size quickly becomes a huge penalty and all the natural armor bonuses they get mean squat on Touch AC. By the early teens, you should hit a point of only missing on a d20 roll of 1.

[Tacoma]

Also because you're ignoring both the magical bonus and the base bonus for Armor and Natural Armor, and large creatures often benefit from ridiculous amounts of Natural Armor, one class of opponents which is very difficult for everyone else is very easy for you.

[Knaight]

And there are always reserve feats, which allow wizards infinite uses if lesser skills provided they hold their big guns back, which also helps with being cinematic.

[ChaosDefender24]

I like Draconic Polymorph as a reserve "feat."

Considering that you have poor BAB, being a cave troll only with more strength makes you into a real powerhouse.

[Animefunkmaster]

Heh.
Ok, so wizards are int/dex builds, then.

Touch AC. You don't need to up your attack bonus for touch ACs. There is weapon focus (ray) and Pointblank shot, but not necessary. Find someway to flat foot your enemy and 9 times out of 10 you will be rolling to hit 10.

Also try rope trick for easy shelter to sleep, I know there is a sleeping bag around somewhere that reduces sleep to two hours. Finally ?master specilist? wizards (from complete mage and a specilize in one school, loose another school(s), to begin with) generally have as much spells as sorcerers.

AFB, I hope any of that helps.

[Megafly]

Dex is also important for low level Wizards because they get AC for their little unarmored selves.

[Tacoma]

Wizards don't wear armor and so have no Dex maximum. Dex is always important to them for that reason. But then again so is CON.

[Tokiko Mima]

And for a batman wizard, neither is even close to as important as INT. For them if it's come time to actually use your AC or HP in some kind of calculation, you've failed to properly use your spells and deserve the death that coming for you. Of course, Batman wizards are more theoretical because mathematically assuring victory in any situation sucks the fun out of the game like a giant Bat-straw attached to an enormous Bat-cuum Cleaner.

[Deepblue706]

Dex is applied to Ranged Touch Attacks because Dex correlates to "hand-eye coordination, agility, reflexes, and balance" (d20srd.org: The Basics).

A ray requires you to "connect the dots" between the point of origin and the target.

Int is "how well your character learns and reasons". You may try to finesse the meaning behind "reasons", but I'm rather sure it's meant to be taken as something along the lines of applying laws of argumentation in a debate.

To get around spells/day: use scrolls, wands and other magic items that allow you to emulate such effects. You might try resting a lot; but any DM worthy of his-or-her seat will quickly realize you are exploiting this and will make the game suitably more challenging to compensate. Or, they may just start providing you with tasks that have time limits.

[ericgrau]

Heh.

Ok, so wizards are int/dex builds, then.

Well, how would a wizard (or any other spellcaster for that matter) increase his ATB? I loved the 4e approach on the matter, with the spell focuses with enhancement bonuses, but as I recall, 3.5 didn't have anything like that.

I'm highly considering house ruling in Int + BAB + enhance bonus on non-combat focus for ATB, and + int for damage. Just because that makes more sense to me >.> Wizards get such lousy BAB...

You may take weapon focus (ray spell) to get +1 AB. Note that ray spells are ranged touch attacks. These affect touch AC, which is much lower than regular AC. They already have a superb chance to hitting for this reason; please don't help the wizard any more here.

[Keld Denar]

Arguably Con is more imporant for wizards than Dex. By about 10th level, 2 points of AC aren't gonna matter. If it wants to hit you, it probably will. +2 to hit is a little more important than the AC, but by then, touch attacks shouldn't be hard, even with 1/2 BAB. If those points were put to Con, you'd have 20 more hp, which is pretty significant in the fact that you can take that much bigger of an attack without going down, or an extra attack without going down.

As far as saves, MOST of the time, failing a fort save means you are dead. MOST of the time, failing a reflex save means you take a bunch of damage. Thus, Con actually protects you from both, since having a higher fort save protects you from instant death, while the hp you gain form the con protect you from AoE death more than a couple points of reflex save would.