Dual-Wielding Shortbows?

[pyrefiend]

A quick question for all you forumgoers out there: I'm making a thri-kreen rogue who wields two shortbows with his four arms. What kind of penalties come into play on his attack rolls? Are they +0/+0, -2/-2, -2/-4, or what?

[SurlySeraph]

Do you have Two-Weapon Fighting? If so, I think it's just -2/-2. I'd like someone with more experience to confirm that, though.

[Fifty-Eyed Fred]

A quick question for all you forumgoers out there: I'm making a thri-kreen rogue who wields two shortbows with his four arms. What kind of penalties come into play on his attack rolls? Are they +0/+0, -2/-2, -2/-4, or what?

I was wondering about the logistics of it until I read "with his four arms". Anyway, I would go for -2/-2 and leave it at that myself (I'm assuming you have Two-Weapon Fighting - otherwise you can't dual-wield without additional penalties, even with four arms).

[mikeejimbo]

Naturally, the DM's word is final on that, but if he wants forum-goer's opinions, that makes sense too.

Unfortunately, I don't have an opinion on this subject.

[NPCMook]

Instead of the Two-Weapon Fighting feats, you'd need to look at the multi-weapon fighting feats for multi-limbed races

[BobVosh]

Instead of using bows you should throw those chakram things they got.

With greater multishot, and all that other love it gets. You can throw like 16 without optimizing too much.

[Jasdoif]

A shortbow isn't a light weapon.

So your penalties are -6/-10 if you don't have Multiweapon Fighting, -4/-4 if you do.

[NPCMook]

I'd say Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting Feat from Complete Adventurer, but that only counts for One-handed weapons. While the concept is interesting, your attack rolls will probably suck

[pyrefiend]

I probably should have mentioned right off the bat that I do indeed have multiweapon fighting.

Instead of using bows you should throw those chakram things they got.

With greater multishot, and all that other love it gets. You can throw like 16 without optimizing too much.

I really, really want to, but I can't. I'm not proficient because although thri-kreen treat them as martial weapons, rogues don't get full martial weapon proficiency. I considered spending a feat on exotic weapon proficiency, but I can't afford it because I really need weapon finesse.

A shortbow isn't a light weapon.

No, but RAW states that crossbows can be dual-wielded as if they were light weapons. It doesn't say anything about dual-wielding bows, but that's hardly surprising since you need two hands to use one and the players handbook assumes characters with two hands.

[Kesnit]

No, but RAW states that crossbows can be dual-wielded as if they were light weapons. It doesn't say anything about dual-wielding bows, but that's hardly surprising since you need two hands to use one and the players handbook assumes characters with two hands.

Any crossbow? Because there is a hand crossbow that is smaller than a light that could be used with 1 hand.

[ericgrau]

Most crossbows, not just the hand crossbow, require only 1 hand and can be dual wielded by 2 handed creatures. Reloading is another problem, though.

[Jasdoif]

No, but RAW states that crossbows can be dual-wielded as if they were light weapons. It doesn't say anything about dual-wielding bows, but that's hardly surprising since you need two hands to use one and the players handbook assumes characters with two hands.

A shortbow isn't a crossbow, so what the rules say about crossbows is irrelevant here.

And I'll admit that I'm no archery expert, but don't bows normally require the use of two hands, one to hold the bow and one to hold the arrow?

[pyrefiend]

Any crossbow? Because there is a hand crossbow that is smaller than a light that could be used with 1 hand.

I thought so, but apparently not. Light and Hand crossbows are treated as light, Heavy crossbows are treated as one handed. All of them except Hand also have a penalty for firing with one hand.

[BRC]

A shortbow isn't a crossbow, so what the rules say about crossbows is irrelevant here.

And I'll admit that I'm no archery expert, but don't bows normally require the use of two hands, one to hold the bow and one to hold the arrow?

Thri-keen, Four Arms.

[Jasdoif]

Thri-keen, Four Arms.

Yes. But if a single bow requires two hands to use, it's certainly not a light weapon.

[BRC]

Yes. But if a single bow requires two hands to use, it's certainly not a light weapon.

Yes, but what makes light weapons easier to use is their weight. 2-handed weapons take 2-hands because they are heavier. You could say, a greatsword is a 2-armed weapon, because it needs the strength of both arms to be wielded effectivly. A shortbow isn't much heavier than a Shortsword.

[pyrefiend]

Yes, but what makes light weapons easier to use is their weight. 2-handed weapons take 2-hands because they are heavier. You could say, a greatsword is a 2-armed weapon, because it needs the strength of both arms to be wielded effectivly. A shortbow isn't much heavier than a Shortsword.

My thoughts exactly. Based on logic alone it seems like the attack roll penalty should be -2/-2 with multiweapon fighting, but there's no rules for dual-wielding bows so I'm not sure.

[Person_Man]

If your DM allows 3.0 conversion, then you can accomplish the same thing with the Fang of Lolth. Since its a PrC and not a race with somewhat ridiculous LA and racial HD, its a more optimal choice.

[Jasdoif]

Yes, but what makes light weapons easier to use is their weight. 2-handed weapons take 2-hands because they are heavier. You could say, a greatsword is a 2-armed weapon, because it needs the strength of both arms to be wielded effectivly. A shortbow isn't much heavier than a Shortsword.

Seeing as a shortspear (one-handed) weighs less than a light mace (light), there needs to be some other criteria involved here.

[pyrefiend]

If your DM allows 3.0 conversion, then you can accomplish the same thing with the Fang of Lolth. Since its a PrC and not a race with somewhat ridiculous LA and racial HD, its a more optimal choice.

My DM wouldn't allow it... he's a bit of a rules lawyer and we have to adhere fairly strictly to the 3.5 RAW. And as for the thri-kreen and its LA, I'm not too worried about it. The rest of the party is composed of a ranger and a warlock, neither of whom are optimized.

[Setra]

Seeing as a shortspear (one-handed) weighs less than a light mace (light), there needs to be some other criteria involved here.

Ease of Use?

[pyrefiend]

Ease of Use?

I guess so. The light mace is clearly the exception rather than the rule, anyway. The only one-handed weapons lighter than it are either exceptionally thin for a one-handed weapon (rapier) or made mostly of some other material than iron (shortspear, club, and whip).

[Jasdoif]

Ease of Use?

Hmm. You have a point, maybe I've been overanalyzing....

OK, I'm confident that a shortbow doesn't count as light for TWF purposes. I mean, a heavy crossbow isn't considered light for TWF purposes, but it's not cumbersome enough to prevent you from using it while prone. A shortbow, meanwhile, can't be used while prone; so it should have less ease of use than the non-light heavy crossbow, right?

[woodenbandman]

I'd like to point out that dual wielding crossbows is more efficient if and only if you have a DM lenient enough to allow you to pull certain shenanigans... shenanigans which result in about 500 attacks per round, but shenanigans nonetheless.

Ranged weapons get shafted hard. Throwing weapons is really the only competent way to compete at a range unless you've got a few yards of height between you and non-flying opponents.

[pyrefiend]

Apparently most four-armed creatures can't use two bows at once at all. The arrow demon from monster manual 3 has the ability to do so as an extraordinary ability, so I guess that means no one else can.

[Jasdoif]

Apparently most four-armed creatures can't use two bows at once at all. The arrow demon from monster manual 3 has the ability to do so as an extraordinary ability, so I guess that means no one else can.

The arrow demon has the special ability to fire with both its bows whenever it could make a single attack with a bow. That's quite different from the standard full attack you'd use with multiweapon fighting.

[SoD]

If your DM allows 3.0 conversion, then you can accomplish the same thing with the Fang of Lolth. Since its a PrC and not a race with somewhat ridiculous LA and racial HD, its a more optimal choice.

But then he wouldn't be an uber-cool giant bug!

[skywalker]

Apparently most four-armed creatures can't use two bows at once at all. The arrow demon from monster manual 3 has the ability to do so as an extraordinary ability, so I guess that means no one else can.

Well think about it.

Are a thri-kreen's arms even shaped right for using two bows? Would have a bow above and below, using the same cross-body posture as humans, or would you have a bow on each side? When you think about it that way, a penalty for using the bows makes sense. Because a shortbow, despite being called a shortbow, is not really short. More short when compared to the longbow. I think with the interference the bows would cause with each other, and the lower bow being far away from your face/eyes/useful targeting reference points, I'd say you'd be lucky to escape with the standard penalties.

[Person_Man]

My DM wouldn't allow it... he's a bit of a rules lawyer and we have to adhere fairly strictly to the 3.5 RAW. And as for the thri-kreen and its LA, I'm not too worried about it. The rest of the party is composed of a ranger and a warlock, neither of whom are optimized.

Well by RAW 3.0 material automatically converts into 3.5. There's a 3.0 conversion manual, and 3.0 -> 3.5 updates. DMs ban 3.0 because they're not familiar with it, or think it breaks some sort of mystical balance rule (which is hilarious, because 3.0 is woefully underpowered compared to Complete Champion).

But hey, if he doesn't allow it, he doesn't allow it. It's his game world.

[John Campbell]

I really, really want to, but I can't. I'm not proficient because although thri-kreen treat them as martial weapons, rogues don't get full martial weapon proficiency. I considered spending a feat on exotic weapon proficiency, but I can't afford it because I really need weapon finesse.

Dip a level in Fighter (or Ranger or Barbarian or other class that grants all martial). Rogue 20th is worthless anyway.