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    AssassinGuy

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    Default Monk in Fullplate

    So I always try to change things up a little with my PC's because while they usually don't metagame too much, they will sometimes pick up on some of my habits on accident.

    One of these is the Guy in Fullplate with an Abysmal Reflex and Will Save[TM]. So I was thinking, a monk in armor loses his monk bonus to ac, his speed and his flurry of blows. If I'm making a guy in fullplate, he's going to be sitting there and taking a beating so speed isn't much of an issue. As far as AC is concerned, well fullplate and a shield takes care of that!

    As far as strict combat ability goes, the loss of flurry of blows hurts, a lot. I think 4 levels of Fighter would give the needed BAB, saves and armor proficiency. (2 levels of Fighter or even just 1 are certainly possible)

    There would be enough synergy from stunning fist to make a decent wisdom score worth while and the combination of evasion and improved evasion would help on the reflex save department if you wanted to dump dexterity.

    I just have this idea of a guy in fullplate jumping off a 50 ft. cliff to confront the party and either pounding on them with one hand or a shield wielded in two. And shrugging off most of what the party throws at him.

    Any suggestions or have I gone completely off my rocker?

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    Firbolg in the Playground
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    Default Re: Monk in Fullplate

    The Latter. Just make him a fighter or a Crusader.
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    Default Re: Monk in Fullplate

    Not so sure about "standing there taking a beating." In my experience, 6th-level PCs were able to take out an 11th-level Warblade when she just stood there.


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    Default Re: Monk in Fullplate

    Is there even any reason to have a monk if he's in full plate?

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    Default Re: Monk in Fullplate

    Favoured Soul gets all good saves, wings eventually, and armour proficiencies. They can do that thing too, or just buy a ring of Feather Fall.
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    AssassinGuy

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    Default Re: Monk in Fullplate

    Saves and spell resistance. The short range teleportation once per day would be really cool as sort of a, "man, what the heck is he doing now?" type thing. Part of it is trying to make something they couldn't figure out easily as my players would recognize most standard opponents like a crusader.

    Edit: unarmed strike damage, wisdom synergy and evasion/improved evasion

    Though I might have to throw a crusader at them too now that I think about it... a pixie crusader...
    Last edited by Thrawn183; 2008-12-15 at 11:51 PM.

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    Default Re: Monk in Fullplate

    You know, as DM, you're not bound by the same game physics as your PCs. You can simply write out stats, abilities, back story, and a motivation, and then play them out. In game, there's no such thing as a Monk or a Rogue or a Fighter. There's just a guy who uses martial arts, a thief, and the town guardsman. Or maybe its a ninja, a brigand, and a bounty hunter. Whatever. The story is what's important. The stats are just a way of adjudicating it to give the PCs the illusion of control.

    Just tell your PCs that you homebrew heavily, but promise to roll all the dice in front of them and never invent abilities on the fly or make stuff up just to railroad them. Trust me on this one. It cuts down on metagaming tremendously, and leads to far more roleplaying and use of Skills (Gather Info, Knowledge, Diplomacy, etc) so that they actually care about the character in the campaign, and not just the builds behind them.

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    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Monk in Fullplate

    Quote Originally Posted by An Enemy Spy View Post
    Is there even any reason to have a monk if he's in full plate?
    Absolutely not. Monks are already pathetically bad - giving up all the vaguely useful monk abilities is just crazy.

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    Firbolg in the Playground
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    Default Re: Monk in Fullplate

    I think the best way to improve this character is take out all the levels of monk.
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    Default Re: Monk in Fullplate

    Quote Originally Posted by esorscher View Post
    I think the best way to improve this character is take out all the levels of monk.
    I concur.

    Quote Originally Posted by An Enemy Spy View Post
    Is there even any reason to have a monk if he's in full plate?
    Fixed it for you.


    All you want is a guy to jump off a cliff in armor and do unarmed stuff?

    Decent Jump + Slowfall reflavored on the armor + unarmed SS I would imagine. Something like fighter to give armor profs.
    I don't know SS stuff though.
    Last edited by BobVosh; 2008-12-16 at 02:31 AM.

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    Default Re: Monk in Fullplate

    Quote Originally Posted by esorscher View Post
    I think the best way to improve this character is take out all the levels of monk.
    But wouldnt that kill him ? Or turn him into a wraith ? I mean, level 0 kinda sucks...
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    Quote Originally Posted by bayar View Post
    But wouldnt that kill him ? Or turn him into a wraith ? I mean, level 0 kinda sucks...
    As a wise man once said, "Better dead than a monkey."

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    Default Re: Monk in Fullplate

    Person_Man hit the nail on the head, methinks. You don't need to go by the same mechanics as the players. In an FR games I run, if the party ever fights a Purple Dragon Knight and a War Wizard of Cormyr in the same encounter, they automatically synergize. In the presence of the Wizard, the Knight throws out ranged energy shockwaves with his sword, as an example.

    Just... ya know, don't be cheap and invent abilities on the spot an' stuff. Basically what Person_Man was saying.

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    Default Re: Monk in Fullplate

    Quote Originally Posted by Thrawn183 View Post
    Saves and spell resistance. The short range teleportation once per day would be really cool as sort of a, "man, what the heck is he doing now?" type thing. Part of it is trying to make something they couldn't figure out easily as my players would recognize most standard opponents like a crusader.

    Edit: unarmed strike damage, wisdom synergy and evasion/improved evasion

    Though I might have to throw a crusader at them too now that I think about it... a pixie crusader...
    Monks get Dimension Door 1/day at level 12. Which happens to be exactly the same level that Horizon Walkers get Dimension Door once every 1d4 rounds. So, there's that, then.

    Also, Evasion doesn't work when you wear heavy armor.

    Slightly more valid reasons to be a monk include threatening the area immediately around you when you wield a reach weapon, getting nifty bonus feats you don't qualify for because you put everything into str and dumped int and dex, skill points for skill tricks like Escape Attack and Swift Escape, and doing Massive Damage when someone casts Enlarge Person at you.

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    Default Re: Monk in Fullplate

    Quote Originally Posted by Thrawn183 View Post
    So I always try to change things up a little with my PC's because while they usually don't metagame too much, they will sometimes pick up on some of my habits on accident.

    One of these is the Guy in Fullplate with an Abysmal Reflex and Will Save[TM]. So I was thinking, a monk in armor loses his monk bonus to ac, his speed and his flurry of blows. If I'm making a guy in fullplate, he's going to be sitting there and taking a beating so speed isn't much of an issue. As far as AC is concerned, well fullplate and a shield takes care of that!

    As far as strict combat ability goes, the loss of flurry of blows hurts, a lot. I think 4 levels of Fighter would give the needed BAB, saves and armor proficiency. (2 levels of Fighter or even just 1 are certainly possible)

    There would be enough synergy from stunning fist to make a decent wisdom score worth while and the combination of evasion and improved evasion would help on the reflex save department if you wanted to dump dexterity.

    I just have this idea of a guy in fullplate jumping off a 50 ft. cliff to confront the party and either pounding on them with one hand or a shield wielded in two. And shrugging off most of what the party throws at him.

    Any suggestions or have I gone completely off my rocker?
    My suggestion?

    Swordsage with +1 Glamored Mithral Chain Shirt. Glamor, instead of making it look like normal clothing as usual, makes it look like full plate.

    Jumping down from obscene hights? Check. Insane AC? Double-check (Swordsage armor bonus stacks with light armor bonus, you can easily beat full plate's total bonus PLUS the Shield bonus without anything more than chain shirt). Plus he's got a lot of 'no you don't actually hurt me' buttons if you build him right (from Setting Sun particularly).
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    AssassinGuy

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    Default Re: Monk in Fullplate

    Thanks for the input guys. In trying to come up with really creative stuff I sometimes forget about doing things the easy way, and by easy I mean magic

    I've never done much with swordsages as I've always been a warblade kinda guy, but now that I think about it, could be devilishly interesting.

    Quick question that I've never understood: do HD count as 1/2 initiator level for matial adepts? If you stick a single level of swordsage on something with say... 8 HD does it have an IL of 1 or 5?

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    Default Re: Monk in Fullplate

    Quote Originally Posted by Thrawn183 View Post
    Thanks for the input guys. In trying to come up with really creative stuff I sometimes forget about doing things the easy way, and by easy I mean magic

    I've never done much with swordsages as I've always been a warblade kinda guy, but now that I think about it, could be devilishly interesting.

    Quick question that I've never understood: do HD count as 1/2 initiator level for matial adepts? If you stick a single level of swordsage on something with say... 8 HD does it have an IL of 1 or 5?
    IL=.5xHD+.5x(martial class level).
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    Default Re: Monk in Fullplate

    Hoo boy. The only thing I can think of to make that monstrosity suck slightly less would be one level of Paladin and the Ascetic Knight feat.

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    Default Re: Monk in Fullplate

    Binder 8 (minimum)
    Vestiges bound: Ronove and Savnok
    Feat: Lightning reflexes.

    decent saves in all categories
    Can wear heavy armor
    Can summon a suit of magical fullplate
    has a boost to speed to compensate for said armor
    featherfall at will
    Unarmed damage of a monk (but no flurry)

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    Default Re: Monk in Fullplate

    Quote Originally Posted by Thrawn183 View Post
    I've never done much with swordsages as I've always been a warblade kinda guy, but now that I think about it, could be devilishly interesting.
    If you really want the SwordSage in full plate... dip one level of Fighter for the Armored Savant ACF (Dragon #355). Mithril full plate + Armored Savant means you treat the full plate as if it were light armor, so the SwordSage's Wis bonus still applies. Works with Evasion, too, which SwordSage gets at 9th level.

    If you still want to be monkish... Unarmed variant of the SwordSage gives you unarmed strike progression as a monk. For flurry, TWF + Bloodclaw Master works pretty well, otherwise just add Snap Kick.

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    AssassinGuy

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    Default Re: Monk in Fullplate

    And now I remember why I never usually build swordsages, what a pain to go through all their maneuvers known and readied!

    Hmm, for the one shot, I helped a new player build a warblade and because we were pressed for time I had her select the maneuvers she had readied and a single stance without looking at prereqs (though I made sure they would be of the right level) and the cost was that she only had those maneuvers and that single stance.

    I could probably do the same thing for a swordsage where all I spend time on is the maneuvers that he'll actually use.

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    Default Re: Monk in Fullplate

    Quote Originally Posted by Thrawn183 View Post
    And now I remember why I never usually build swordsages, what a pain to go through all their maneuvers known and readied!

    Hmm, for the one shot, I helped a new player build a warblade and because we were pressed for time I had her select the maneuvers she had readied and a single stance without looking at prereqs (though I made sure they would be of the right level) and the cost was that she only had those maneuvers and that single stance.

    I could probably do the same thing for a swordsage where all I spend time on is the maneuvers that he'll actually use.
    Adaptive Style is great for Swordsages. It lets them refresh all maneuvers in a single action, and means they can change the list around because they're fighting a mob rather than the solo guy they expected.
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    Default Re: Monk in Fullplate

    Quote Originally Posted by Fishy View Post
    Monks get Dimension Door 1/day at level 12. Which happens to be exactly the same level that Horizon Walkers get Dimension Door once every 1d4 rounds. So, there's that, then.
    Actually, Horizon Walkers get DD at level 11. You can get into HW after only 5 levels of base class.
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    Default Re: Monk in Fullplate

    Just throw a lightning warrior at them http://forums.gleemax.com/wotc_archi...x.php/t-868384
    that'll make them think!
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    Default Re: Monk in Fullplate

    Make him a Monk wearing special platemail that he's cursed to wear. It's all demonic and stuff. While he wears it, the armor regenerates and takes damage instead of him. When it "dies" it explodes off his body in a shower of shards.

    It also makes him constantly Rage.

    But you see, he's an Evil monk and he doesn't mind being possessed.

    So he jumps off the cliff, landing on a PC for tons of damage with a Leap Attack roll, totally rocking the front part of the house until the kill his armor. Then they get blasted.

    The monk stands there in the debris, thanking them tearfully while the Wizard's buffs run out. He explains this convoluted backstory about how he was imprisoned and blah blah. He wants to show them back to his monastery in the mountains where they mine emeralds. It's been taken over by demons, and all the monks slain.

    The PCs relax and start to cast some low level healing spells to use them up before starting on the big ones. They become greedy and make silent plans about the emeralds free for the taking. The monk beside the Cleric, who is just now casting his third Cure Minor Wounds, suddenly receives a surprise AoO from the Monk who goes completely ape on them. Now he's got a fresh, full load of Monk and Monk PrC abilities and he's rocking the back half of the party.

    The Wizard tries to get some stuff off, but the Monk has excellent SR. He has a belt that grants you bonus SR if you have a natural SR of at least 15. His natural SR is 15. Unless the PCs are playing monks, such an item will be useless to them. And the Wizard has perhaps a 1 in 4 chance of getting through said SR. Plus the Monk has great saves.

    And he has a one-shot charm that will reflect one spell, then it's used up. He employs it when one of the Wizard's spells comes through.

    Maybe the Monk isn't the best class, but if he's holding all the cards and he's devious he's a worthwhile encounter.

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    Default Re: Monk in Fullplate

    Quote Originally Posted by Tacoma View Post
    *snipped*

    Maybe the Monk isn't the best class, but if he's holding all the cards and he's devious he's a worthwhile encounter.
    And massively houseruled. Besides, Solid Fog has no SR. Neither does Dispel Magic(wipe those items) Summon Monster(there is no problem that can't be solved by sacrificing minions) or Forcecage.
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    Default Re: Monk in Fullplate

    This reminds me of my idea for a Captain America build, which is effectively a gimmicky fighter with shield and unarmed feats. You pretty much take the standard fighter (dungeoncrasher, preferably), and run around with an oversized shield in two hands power attacking/bull-rushing/tripping the ever-loving snot out of people. Granted it requires a little bit of houseruling/rules lawyering to let your DM let you use a big shield in two hands and bash with power attack, but it gets the point across and is pretty fun.
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    Default Re: Monk in Fullplate

    Quote Originally Posted by Sstoopidtallkid View Post
    And massively houseruled. Besides, Solid Fog has no SR. Neither does Dispel Magic(wipe those items) Summon Monster(there is no problem that can't be solved by sacrificing minions) or Forcecage.
    Yes we all know the Batman is unbeatable. Note I didn't commit the heresy of claiming the Batman could be harmed or even inconvenienced by a lowly Monk who is *reasonably* houseruled. After all, his houserules mostly involve new and interesting magic items the likes of which often fall into the players' laps. Maybe not precisely in this case. But it's no worse than the benefit of setting up an ambush and getting time to buff up first, which is perfectly acceptable for an intelligent encounter.

    Also note that I made a mistake that the Monk has SR 15. Should have been 23 (Level +10, minimum 13th). As a single creature level 13 he's not a CR 13 encounter for a full party of more than four ... but even if a party of four encountered him and they were level 13, the Batman would have exactly one 7th level spell, which might not even be Forcecage.

    Dispel Magic requires that you select which item to target. His item that improves SR is probably a belt or something (under armor and hence not visible) and his charm is kept in his pocket or something. The armor could be dispelled I suppose, for 1d4 rounds, but the Monk would use his charm to reflect that one spell back and drop all the caster's junk.

    The Monk Jumps over your minions or Tumbles all around and around, provoking no AoO.

    And the fact that Solid Fog grants no SR or Save is kind of broken for an area-effect 4th level spell.

    Better hope the Batman wasn't the one the Monk landed on ...
    Last edited by Tacoma; 2008-12-16 at 05:18 PM.

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    Default Re: Monk in Fullplate

    Quote Originally Posted by Tacoma View Post
    Yes we all know the Batman is unbeatable. Note I didn't commit the heresy of claiming the Batman could be harmed or even inconvenienced by a lowly Monk who is *reasonably* houseruled. After all, his houserules mostly involve new and interesting magic items the likes of which often fall into the players' laps. Maybe not precisely in this case. But it's no worse than the benefit of setting up an ambush and getting time to buff up first, which is perfectly acceptable for an intelligent encounter.

    Also note that I made a mistake that the Monk has SR 15. Should have been 23 (Level +10, minimum 13th). As a single creature level 13 he's not a CR 13 encounter for a full party of more than four ... but even if a party of four encountered him and they were level 13, the Batman would have exactly one 7th level spell, which might not even be Forcecage.

    Dispel Magic requires that you select which item to target. His item that improves SR is probably a belt or something (under armor and hence not visible) and his charm is kept in his pocket or something. The armor could be dispelled I suppose, for 1d4 rounds, but the Monk would use his charm to reflect that one spell back and drop all the caster's junk.

    The Monk Jumps over your minions or Tumbles all around and around, provoking no AoO.

    And the fact that Solid Fog grants no SR or Save is kind of broken for an area-effect 4th level spell.

    Better hope the Batman wasn't the one the Monk landed on ...
    I don't think custom items that would never be approved for a player is a 'reasonable' houserule. A 13th level Wizard will have 3 7th-level slots, no matter what. And minions are summoned next to him, probably large, and any movement he makes provokes(that full-plate you gave him that no player can get imposes a penalty to Tumble).

    Also, how is a low-Cha creature bluffing if it's a cross-class skill?
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    Default Re: Monk in Fullplate

    So solid fog is broken but a guy who has infinite spell resistance and great saves, as well as an arbitrarily high bluff check, isn't?

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