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    overduegalaxy's Avatar

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    Default Is raising the Warmage and Beguiler's BAB to match the Bard reasonable?

    Our group is deciding on houserules, and someone proposed this one. Here's the argument they gave:

    From a fluff point of view, a warmage spends years training with the army.
    It's reasonable he learns to be a little more effective with weapons than your standard wizard.

    A beguiler is, essentially, a rogue crossed with a bard. Why shouldn't she share their BAB? Plus, with practically no spells that do actual damage, if the beguiler is in a situation where she has to defend herself against a monster immune to charm/mind affecting/illusion, it'd be nice to have another option.

    Additionally, both classes have the same number of spells/day as a cleric (with domain spells), and the cleric has an average BAB.

    Finally, neither class would be favoring STR (in any sensible build), so it's not like they'd suddenly be outshining the rogue when it comes to combat.

    I see where they're coming from, but with both classes having the same spells/day as a sorcerer, I'm not entirely convinced. So, might as well let everyone here weigh in.
    Last edited by overduegalaxy; 2008-12-17 at 06:51 PM.

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    Default Re: Is raising the Warmage and Beguiler's BAB to match the Bard reasonable?

    The beguiler is flat out better than the rogue. It doesn't need any extra help.
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    Default Re: Is raising the Warmage and Beguiler's BAB to match the Bard reasonable?

    Fluffwise, I can see the warmage not ever picking up a weapon.
    Same with the Beguiler.

    That said, just because the Beguiler specializes in a kind of magic that enemies often have immunity to doesn't mean he needs free stuff. In the WoW parlance, you can't expect everyone to be able to solo.

    In game balance I suppose it doesn't make that much of a difference in combat, since they'll still suck too much to hit anything. I'd look at PrC requirements and see if letting Warmage and Beguiler in early due to BAB value will break things.

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    Default Re: Is raising the Warmage and Beguiler's BAB to match the Bard reasonable?

    To be honest, I don't think that would break anything at all.
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    Default Re: Is raising the Warmage and Beguiler's BAB to match the Bard reasonable?

    No, it is not. Neither needs a weapon, and both are plenty strong already without this boost.
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    Default Re: Is raising the Warmage and Beguiler's BAB to match the Bard reasonable?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tacoma View Post
    I'd look at PrC requirements and see if letting Warmage and Beguiler in early due to BAB value will break things.
    To be fair, the sort of PrCs they should be looking at shouldn't be relying on BAB prereqs, but caster prereqs.
    Last edited by overduegalaxy; 2008-12-17 at 07:18 PM.

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    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: Is raising the Warmage and Beguiler's BAB to match the Bard reasonable?

    Quote Originally Posted by overduegalaxy
    To be fair, the sort of PrCs they should be looking at shouldn't be relying on BAB prereqs, but caster prereqs.
    Strange things can be afoot at the Circle-K when it comes to PrC.

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    Default Re: Is raising the Warmage and Beguiler's BAB to match the Bard reasonable?

    I think that it would be fine for the Warmage but not for the Beguiler. The Warmage could do with the extra attack bonus since all it's spells are attacking focused anyway. The Beguiler is seriously good as is and doesn't need a boost.
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    Default Re: Is raising the Warmage and Beguiler's BAB to match the Bard reasonable?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jimp View Post
    I think that it would be fine for the Warmage but not for the Beguiler. The Warmage could do with the extra attack bonus since all it's spells are attacking focused anyway. The Beguiler is seriously good as is and doesn't need a boost.
    Agreed wholeheartedly.

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    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: Is raising the Warmage and Beguiler's BAB to match the Bard reasonable?

    As others have said, the Beguiler is just fine the way it is.

    As for the Warmage, I always thought it should have medium BAB. It'll help with their touch attack spells, and it would make them much more gish-friendly, encouraging them to take more gishy PrCs (or at least let them get in earlier).
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    NinjaGuy

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    Default Re: Is raising the Warmage and Beguiler's BAB to match the Bard reasonable?

    ^

    What they said.

    Warmage, OK. Beguiler, gods no.

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    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: Is raising the Warmage and Beguiler's BAB to match the Bard reasonable?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jimp View Post
    I think that it would be fine for the Warmage but not for the Beguiler. The Warmage could do with the extra attack bonus since all it's spells are attacking focused anyway. The Beguiler is seriously good as is and doesn't need a boost.
    I agree with this.
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    Default Re: Is raising the Warmage and Beguiler's BAB to match the Bard reasonable?

    Quote Originally Posted by overduegalaxy View Post

    A beguiler is, essentially, a rogue crossed with a bard. Why shouldn't she share their BAB? Plus, with practically no spells that do actual damage, if the beguiler is in a situation where she has to defend herself against a monster immune to charm/mind affecting/illusion, it'd be nice to have another option.
    The best "other option" is some wands of blasty spells.

    Beguiler has UMD as a class skill, and should have a high Cha, so buying a few wands to use when the enemy has no nice squishy mind to mess with is a good idea.

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    AssassinGuy

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    Default Re: Is raising the Warmage and Beguiler's BAB to match the Bard reasonable?

    Don't improve the Beguiler. Seriously. Don't even think about it. Do you hate Rogues, probably the most balanced class in the game? I can't think of any other reason for your proposal.

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    Librarian in the Playground Moderator
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    Default Re: Is raising the Warmage and Beguiler's BAB to match the Bard reasonable?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jimp View Post
    I think that it would be fine for the Warmage but not for the Beguiler. The Warmage could do with the extra attack bonus since all it's spells are attacking focused anyway. The Beguiler is seriously good as is and doesn't need a boost.
    I agree with this; the Beguiler is a 3.5 class, and a late one at that. The warmage is a 3.0 class that remained a 3.0 class when reprinted.

    While the warmage probably shouldn't be swinging a sword, he definitely should be able to.
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    NinjaGuy

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    Default Re: Is raising the Warmage and Beguiler's BAB to match the Bard reasonable?

    While boosting the BAB of the beguiler isn't game breaking because they won't be attacking much anyway, it is completely pointless for that reason. It's just a power-boost to an already powerful class.

    Makes more sense with the warmage, not entirely sure about balance but at least the pay-off makes sense. Perhaps try and balance it in someway, possibly by delaying advanced learning by a level.
    Last edited by metagaia; 2008-12-17 at 08:41 PM.
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    Imp

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    Default Re: Is raising the Warmage and Beguiler's BAB to match the Bard reasonable?

    Honestly, a Beguiler could function just fine with 0 BaB. I guess he'd be easier to grapple, but he's pretty much screwed on that front until he grabs a ring of FoM.
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    Default Re: Is raising the Warmage and Beguiler's BAB to match the Bard reasonable?

    Beguilers get FoM as a spell anways. no need to wate a ring slot on that.
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    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Is raising the Warmage and Beguiler's BAB to match the Bard reasonable?

    Quote Originally Posted by Frosty View Post
    Beguilers get FoM as a spell anways. no need to wate a ring slot on that.
    The spell has a duration of a few hours at best, though, whereas the ring is always active and less likely to be disabled. Considering the life-saving power of the effect, there's something to be said for the ring of freedom of movement even if you can cast the spell.

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    Default Re: Is raising the Warmage and Beguiler's BAB to match the Bard reasonable?

    Warmage - maybe.

    Beguiler - no.

    Beguiler is already a pretty nifty class - they really don't need much help.

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    Default Re: Is raising the Warmage and Beguiler's BAB to match the Bard reasonable?

    With all those spells per day, I guess spamming FoM could be worth it by the higher levels, but you better have two really good rings.
    Last edited by GoodbyeSoberDay; 2008-12-18 at 01:02 AM.
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    Default Re: Is raising the Warmage and Beguiler's BAB to match the Bard reasonable?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jimp View Post
    I think that it would be fine for the Warmage but not for the Beguiler. The Warmage could do with the extra attack bonus since all it's spells are attacking focused anyway. The Beguiler is seriously good as is and doesn't need a boost.
    The only thing about this is, Warmages mostly go after touch AC. Getting a high attack bonus isn't that critical for them, though of course it still doesn't hurt.
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    Default Re: Is raising the Warmage and Beguiler's BAB to match the Bard reasonable?

    From a fluff perspective, I'd say t would make sense for Warmages but not for Beguillers (WMs are supposedly trained for combat while Beguillers are more concerned with learning how to use skills).
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    Default Re: Is raising the Warmage and Beguiler's BAB to match the Bard reasonable?

    Quote Originally Posted by GoodbyeSoberDay View Post
    With all those spells per day, I guess spamming FoM could be worth it by the higher levels, but you better have two really good rings.
    Plenty of rings are good. For example, a ring that of Universal Resistance, or a Ring of Shield Other (if you get hit, half the damage goes to the Big Stupid Fighter!)
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    Default Re: Is raising the Warmage and Beguiler's BAB to match the Bard reasonable?

    I've played a few different mages (and mage/fighters, spellswords, mage/rogue/arcane tricksters) with the intent of making a compentant fighter/blaster arcanist. So far, Warmage comes closest in the feel, but even then, has that horrible habit of being a glass cannon, and having party members say "Your BaB is what? And you're a Warmage?"

    With such knowledge under my belt, and a firm urge to stick my +1 spear up into his 'Hard Reset' button area, I too, advocate in an increase in the Warmage's BaB. Now, perhaps they don't get full Bab (awww), because, after all, they are a spontaneous caster that can draw from thier entire list, (albiet a good deal smaller than most blaster-casters would like, though admittedly normally enough to drop BBEG X), at least bumping them up to 3/4ths Bab (IE: Bard, Cleric, etc) makes a good deal of sense to me.

    Edit: No BaB for Beguiler. They're good enough.
    Last edited by Seffbasilisk; 2008-12-18 at 05:08 AM.
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    Default Re: Is raising the Warmage and Beguiler's BAB to match the Bard reasonable?

    Quote Originally Posted by Seffbasilisk View Post
    I've played a few different mages (and mage/fighters, spellswords, mage/rogue/arcane tricksters) with the intent of making a compentant fighter/blaster arcanist. So far, Warmage comes closest in the feel, but even then, has that horrible habit of being a glass cannon, and having party members say "Your BaB is what? And you're a Warmage?"

    With such knowledge under my belt, and a firm urge to stick my +1 spear up into his 'Hard Reset' button area, I too, advocate in an increase in the Warmage's BaB. Now, perhaps they don't get full Bab (awww), because, after all, they are a spontaneous caster that can draw from thier entire list, (albiet a good deal smaller than most blaster-casters would like, though admittedly normally enough to drop BBEG X), at least bumping them up to 3/4ths Bab (IE: Bard, Cleric, etc) makes a good deal of sense to me.

    Edit: No BaB for Beguiler. They're good enough.
    QFT on most of this post. The Beguiler is good enough, but the Warmage can use the help. I have to ask, though, have you never heard of the Duskblade? They are good at low levels, similar to all charazcters then, great from about 5-10, then taper off as they're much more Martial than Arcane. Very good, though, and seems what you were looking for.
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    Default Re: Is raising the Warmage and Beguiler's BAB to match the Bard reasonable?

    You could give the Battle Sorcerer full Socerer progression as well (this would make normal Sorcerers pointless without boosting them, though).
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    Default Re: Is raising the Warmage and Beguiler's BAB to match the Bard reasonable?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tempest Fennac View Post
    You could give the Battle Sorcerer full Socerer progression as well (this would make normal Sorcerers pointless without boosting them, though).
    One of my friends uses this as a fix for them in games he GMs, to make them have something over Wizards. YMMV.
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    Default Re: Is raising the Warmage and Beguiler's BAB to match the Bard reasonable?

    What does YMMV mean? I heard about that fix from someone on this forum.
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    Default Re: Is raising the Warmage and Beguiler's BAB to match the Bard reasonable?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tempest Fennac View Post
    What does YMMV mean? I heard about that fix from someone on this forum.
    Your milage may vary. Essentially, I don't know how it would play out in your game, as it matters most for Sorcerers that don't have Ranged Touch attacks and can't use Runestaves.
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