[4e D&D] Martial Power: Rending Tempest

[Townopolis]

This feat (on page 148) is worded pretty vaguely. It seems to me that it would work as follows:

I attack with Dual Strike, my main hand attack deals 2[W] damage. If it hits, my offhand attack will deal 3[W] damage. If I make any more attacks against the target this round, they will also deal an additional 1[W] damage.

However, it could also work like this:

I attack with Dual Strike, my main hand attack deals 2[W] damage, and my offhand attack will deal 2[W] damage. If either attack hits, any additional attacks I make against the target this round (such as if they violate mark or provoke an OA) will deal an additional 1[W] damage.

I'm really not sure which is right. The former seems a bit powerful, but the latter seems a bit meh.

[Starsinger]

I believe it is indeed the latter. It's mehish on its own, but if you have a warlord granting you attacks, OAs on the target, or spend an AP for say, Blade Cascade it becomes more attractive.

[The Mormegil]

I attack with Dual Strike, my main hand attack deals 2[W] damage, and my offhand attack will deal 2[W] damage. If either attack hits, any additional attacks I make against the target this round (such as if they violate mark or provoke an OA) will deal an additional 1[W] damage.

BUT, after that, EVERY OTHER TIME YOU HIT YOU ADD ANOTHER [W]. It can be pretty damn good, if you're aiming for burst damage:
1 - Activate Two Weapon Flurry (daily 29 stance)
2 - Twin Strike --- 4W
3 - TWF activates for a melee basic --- 3W (normally 2)
4 - Nonchalant Collapse --- 4W (normally 2)
5 - TWF activates again --- 5W (normally 2)
6 - AP: Blade Cascade --- 6W, 7W, 8W, 9W, 10W (normally 2 each)

It may be only my interpretation, but I think it works like this. Which is great, since you gained (though spending 1 AP, 1 Encounter and 2 dailies) 36 [W] damages!

[KKL]

You could always slap on Rain of Blows to make it even more sillier.

EDIT: Haha nevermind, I didn't Mormegil's use of Blade Cascade.

[Artanis]

BUT, after that, EVERY OTHER TIME YOU HIT YOU ADD ANOTHER [W]. It can be pretty damn good, if you're aiming for burst damage:
1 - Activate Two Weapon Flurry (daily 29 stance)
2 - Twin Strike --- 4W
3 - TWF activates for a melee basic --- 3W (normally 2)
4 - Nonchalant Collapse --- 4W (normally 2)
5 - TWF activates again --- 5W (normally 2)
6 - AP: Blade Cascade --- 6W, 7W, 8W, 9W, 10W (normally 2 each)

It may be only my interpretation, but I think it works like this. Which is great, since you gained (though spending 1 AP, 1 Encounter and 2 dailies) 36 [W] damages!

That is pretty damn good, but I haven't (yet) gotten anywhere near that high of a level. Since I have thus far only experienced levels where this cost would be pretty much every resource for the entire day, I have to ask how expensive it "really" is.

And for the sake of clarity, that's an honest question, not sarcasm

[Asbestos]

BUT, after that, EVERY OTHER TIME YOU HIT YOU ADD ANOTHER [W]. It can be pretty damn good, if you're aiming for burst damage:
1 - Activate Two Weapon Flurry (daily 29 stance)
2 - Twin Strike --- 4W
3 - TWF activates for a melee basic --- 3W (normally 2)
4 - Nonchalant Collapse --- 4W (normally 2)
5 - TWF activates again --- 5W (normally 2)
6 - AP: Blade Cascade --- 6W, 7W, 8W, 9W, 10W (normally 2 each)

It may be only my interpretation, but I think it works like this. Which is great, since you gained (though spending 1 AP, 1 Encounter and 2 dailies) 36 [W] damages!

What? This makes no sense to me.

I'm having trouble finding that exploit. Also, why would it jump to 5W at 5?
Wait! Think I found what you're talking about, an epic feat that allows...

Spoiler

Show

While holding a melee weapon in each
hand, if you make a successful opportunity attack with
your primary weapon, you can also make an opportunity
attack with your off-hand weapon against the
same target (but with a –5 penalty to the attack roll).

This would allow a total of 4[W] damage from an OA IF (big IF) both attacks hit.

Nonchalant collapse is a hit that does 2[W] and knocks the target prone (normally) here it would do 3[W] and knock the target prone.

Two Weapon Flurry Does not activate after Nonchalant collapse, even if you could make more than one immediate action, knocking someone prone does not provoke. (If that's what is happening)

Also, I would not interpret Rending Tempest as working in such a way as to stack whenever you make an attack that uses two weapons (don't think that the OAs with TWFlurry would set it off either, if we consider it two separate attacks) Either way I'd consider Blade Cascade to be a single 'attack' even though it grants a lot of die rolls. Basically either an OA is a single attack AND Blade Cascade is a single attack, or neither is. I think you're trying to have your cake and eat it too here.
Also! How are you getting people to provoke OAs during your turn?

IF it stacks, which I don't see it doing, it would work like this

Twin Strike- 4[W] A single exploit, to me, a single attack. (+1 W to further attacks)
Nonchalant Collapse - 3[W] and knock target prone (+1 W to further attacks)
AP- Blade Cascade - 20 [W] (5 at 4[W] (+1 to further attacks)

OA with TWFlurry- 5[W] (+1 to further attacks)
Warlord grants a basic attack as a free action- 5[W]

So like... 37[W] in attacks? Assuming that everything hits and everything works correctly to maximize it, and of course, assuming that it stacks every time you make an attack (read: OA or Exploit) that requires the use of two weapons.

[Ninetail]

I'm pretty sure it doesn't stack. Feats generally don't stack with themselves in 4e, and there's nothing to indicate that this one would.

Still, an extra 1[W] on every attack past the second is not a small thing, if you have the right powers and/or an action point.

[MammonAzrael]

Since you can't actually make an attack with two weapons simultaneously in 4e (hit with both at the same time), I read it thus:

I attack with Dual Strike.
the first roll hits for 2[W]
The second roll hits for 2[W] + 1[W]

If I spend an AP or somehow get more attacks
I attack with Blade Cascade
The first roll hits for 2[W]+str + 2[W]
The second roll hits for 2[W]+str +3[W]

And so on. The feat says that ANY time you hit with a melee attack that uses two weapons you add the extra 1[W]. Since the extra [W] is untyped (ie not a feat, item, power, etc bonus), it stacks. So with multiple attacks you can get quite the extra [W]s. Which I think is just fine for Epic level characters.

[Ninetail]

Since you can't actually make an attack with two weapons simultaneously in 4e (hit with both at the same time), I read it thus:

I'm pretty sure you're wrong about this one.

I attack with Dual Strike.
the first roll hits for 2[W]
The second roll hits for 2[W] + 1[W]

The first hits for 2[W], of course.
The second hits for 2[W], because you have not yet hit with a melee attack using two weapons (Twin Strike calls out the rolls as primary and off-hand weapons), and only your subsequent attacks get the bonus.

If I spend an AP or somehow get more attacks
I attack with Blade Cascade
The first roll hits for 2[W]+str + 2[W]

2[W] + str + 1[W] -- you get the extra 1[W] from the feat, provided both your Twin Strike attacks hit.

The second roll hits for 2[W]+str +3[W]

2[W] + str + 1[W] again. See below.

And so on. The feat says that ANY time you hit with a melee attack that uses two weapons you add the extra 1[W]. Since the extra [W] is untyped (ie not a feat, item, power, etc bonus), it stacks. So with multiple attacks you can get quite the extra [W]s. Which I think is just fine for Epic level characters.

That's not what the feat says, though. The feat says "your subsequent melee attacks against the target deal 1[W] extra damage on a hit during the same turn."

"1[W] extra damage" is not the same as "an additional 1[W] damage." The feat gives you 1[W] extra damage on each attack, period. It doesn't matter how many times you hit, you get 1[W] extra damage on each attack, not 2[W] or 3[W] or X[W].

[The Mormegil]

Since you can't actually make an attack with two weapons simultaneously in 4e (hit with both at the same time), I read it thus:

I attack with Dual Strike.
the first roll hits for 2[W]
The second roll hits for 2[W] + 1[W]

If I spend an AP or somehow get more attacks
I attack with Blade Cascade
The first roll hits for 2[W]+str + 2[W]
The second roll hits for 2[W]+str +3[W]

And so on. The feat says that ANY time you hit with a melee attack that uses two weapons you add the extra 1[W]. Since the extra [W] is untyped (ie not a feat, item, power, etc bonus), it stacks. So with multiple attacks you can get quite the extra [W]s. Which I think is just fine for Epic level characters.

Which is what I said, just better.

Also, I was referring to the lvl 29 stance ranger power (whose name I did't look before, and got wrong - great memory - was Follow Up Blow).

@Artanis: it's half yopur dailies, plus your single AP for that encounter. Not really THAT much (you got many ways to recover powers and APs at this level are growing on trees). But, as someone pointed out, I need to hit with EVERY AND EACH ATTACK (which would be incredible luck, trust me. Unless you had prepared for this one before, with powers like Armor Splinter and Lead the Attack).

[MammonAzrael]

The first hits for 2[W], of course.
The second hits for 2[W], because you have not yet hit with a melee attack using two weapons (Twin Strike calls out the rolls as primary and off-hand weapons), and only your subsequent attacks get the bonus.

But you have hit. With that first strike. The feat says whenever you hit with an attack, not when you hit with the entire power.

That's not what the feat says, though. The feat says "your subsequent melee attacks against the target deal 1[W] extra damage on a hit during the same turn."

"1[W] extra damage" is not the same as "an additional 1[W] damage." The feat gives you 1[W] extra damage on each attack, period. It doesn't matter how many times you hit, you get 1[W] extra damage on each attack, not 2[W] or 3[W] or X[W].

You are right that when the feat activates it only adds 1[W]. But there is no limit on the number of times it can be activated in a round. Every hit landed with a melee attack using two weapons will trigger the feat. Hence the multiple [W]s. And since the [W]s are untyped, they stack.

If you use Twin Strike or Dual Strike, you get 2 attack rolls. If you hit with either one you have successfully hit with a melee attack that uses two weapons and activate the feat. If you hit with both rolls you have successfully hit with a melee attack that uses two weapons twice, activating the feat twice.

I'd be surprised if this is RAI, but I'm pretty sure it is RAW.

[Townopolis]

So what everyone's saying is: WotC really needs to errata this?

[MammonAzrael]

Yes.extra stuff here. You win a cookie.

[Townopolis]

In related news, I was going to ask the Sage Advice column (or just customer support) what they thought, but my login seems to be broken. I can log into the main website, but the support website seems to think my password isn't correct. Perhaps someone who can actually log in could ask them?

[Ninetail]

But you have hit. With that first strike. The feat says whenever you hit with an attack, not when you hit with the entire power.

But you haven't hit with an attack using two weapons. That first attack uses only the primary weapon. The second attack uses the off-hand weapon.

You are right that when the feat activates it only adds 1[W]. But there is no limit on the number of times it can be activated in a round. Every hit landed with a melee attack using two weapons will trigger the feat. Hence the multiple [W]s. And since the [W]s are untyped, they stack.

It doesn't matter how often it activates, it adds only 1[W] extra damage. Not 1[W]+1[W]+1[W]+....

If you use Twin Strike or Dual Strike, you get 2 attack rolls. If you hit with either one you have successfully hit with a melee attack that uses two weapons and activate the feat. If you hit with both rolls you have successfully hit with a melee attack that uses two weapons twice, activating the feat twice.

I'd be surprised if this is RAI, but I'm pretty sure it is RAW.

Except that isn't the way Twin Strike is written. Twin Strike is one power, but two attacks, each of which uses only one weapon -- so by your reading, Twin Strike couldn't activate the feat at all.

[MammonAzrael]

But you haven't hit with an attack using two weapons. That first attack uses only the primary weapon. The second attack uses the off-hand weapon.

Except that isn't the way Twin Strike is written. Twin Strike is one power, but two attacks, each of which uses only one weapon -- so by your reading, Twin Strike couldn't activate the feat at all.

By your reading, no power or attack activates the feat, because there is no way to attack with multiple weapons simultaneously. And that's obviously not RAI.

[Ninetail]

By your reading, no power or attack activates the feat, because there is no way to attack with multiple weapons simultaneously. And that's obviously not RAI.

Eh? My reading is that it activates after a hit with each weapon, within the same round.

There are lots of ways of doing that as a ranger.

[MammonAzrael]

No. There are many powers that hit with two weapons, but those are all making multiple attacks to hit with multiple weapons (ie Twin Strike makes two attacks, one with each weapon). There are no attacks that hit with two weapons. And not that the feat uses the word attack, not power.

The Damage line of Twin Strike even says

Hit: 1[W] damage per attack.

[Asbestos]

No. There are many powers that hit with two weapons, but those are all making multiple attacks to hit with multiple weapons (ie Twin Strike makes two attacks, one with each weapon). There are no attacks that hit with two weapons. And not that the feat uses the word attack, not power.

The Damage line of Twin Strike even says

Yeah, which is why I felt it was potentially too much and interpreted it as 'exploit/power' rather than 'attack'. I feel that that was the RAI, while RAW may disagree.


@The OP: I'll give the sage advice question a shot and see if my login works, I think its an account migration issue.