Class and Level Geekery XI - Can Now Argue Three Times Per Page

[AKA_Bait]

There is one problem with telekinetic maneuver: It uses the grapple rules. After the first successful grapple attempt, Roy would not be fully locked down - it would take a second grapple check to pin. (as well as two actions to actually complete the lock down).

I think that there is a fair chance the grapple rules would be hand-waived by the Giant. After all, I don't even think that most 3.5 players use them.

[Porthos]

I think that there is a fair chance the grapple rules would be hand-waived by the Giant. After all, I don't even think that most 3.5 players use them.

Grapple rules are famous for being nigh-incomprehensible and overly complicated.

NOTE:::: I am sure there are plenty of people on this thread who understand them backwards and forwards and could recite them in their sleep. Even so, the meme persists.

Personally, I don't see pinning as being a deal breaker here.

[Kornaki]

Why does it need to be a pin? I feel like the mere act of successfully entering a grapple there would be sufficient for the page.

[Porthos]

Why does it need to be a pin? I feel like the mere act of successfully entering a grapple there would be sufficient for the page.

I suppose it doesn't. It's just being pinned is worse than being grappled.

Grappling Consequences
While you’re grappling, your ability to attack others and defend yourself is limited.

No Threatened Squares
You don’t threaten any squares while grappling.

No Dexterity Bonus
You lose your Dexterity bonus to AC (if you have one) against opponents you aren’t grappling. (You can still use it against opponents you are grappling.)

No Movement
You can’t move normally while grappling. You may, however, make an opposed grapple check to move while grappling.

If You’re Pinned by an Opponent

When an opponent has pinned you, you are held immobile (but not helpless) for 1 round. While you’re pinned, you take a -4 penalty to your AC against opponents other than the one pinning you. At your opponent’s option, you may also be unable to speak. On your turn, you can try to escape the pin by making an opposed grapple check in place of an attack. You can make an Escape Artist check in place of your grapple check if you want, but this requires a standard action. If you win, you escape the pin, but you’re still grappling.

[RMS Oceanic]

A bit more reshuffling.

Post 1 - Team Evil, Linear Guild. LG Members unspoilered
Post 2 - Sapphire Guard, Team Tarquin
Post 3 - OOTScr, Other. Extracted Qarr from LG as he unceremoniously resigned and was working directly for the IFCC anyway. So was Sabine, but she has actual loyalty to Nale.

[Ramien]

Why does it need to be a pin? I feel like the mere act of successfully entering a grapple there would be sufficient for the page.

A pin makes you immobile and gives you a much higher penalty than just a grapple - it does not, however, make you helpless, which is one of the reason I argue for Control Body - it can apply the helpless condition, while telekinetic maneuver does not.

Edit - mostly ninja'd by Porthos, appropriately enough.

[Porthos]

A pin makes you immobile and gives you a much higher penalty than just a grapple - it does not, however, make you helpless, which is one of the reason I argue for Control Body - it can apply the helpless condition, while telekinetic maneuver does not.

Whose downside is a fort save which is not augmentable (telekinetic maneuver, as I noted, is augmentable which means that Laurin could theoretically pump up the checks to blow by Roy's str mod). I see your point, I just think it has more check marks against it than TM.

Now if Laurin had said, "He's helpless now", I'd conceed the point. But since she 'only' said "He's locked down", it seems to me to be overkill. Much like Mind Probe is overkill for the power manifested in 913.

[Sniffnoy]

For what it's worth, Girard's "Sorceror 19+" link both has "sorcerer" misspelled and doesn't actually go anywhere.

[Chronos]

I know I'm a little late to the party, but add my voice to those that say that Tarquin's epic. He's displayed an ability for which epic levels are the only in-game explanation. Yes, we do still have to ask why he was able to deflect any arrows at all, but we have to ask that regardless of his level, so it doesn't provide any relevant evidence. And he's already known to be higher-level than the already near-epic Order, and he seems to think that he's significantly higher-level than Roy ("Like something I'd have done when I was your level" seems to suggest considerably more than one level difference), and he's known to have at least one associate of epic ECL. Put it all together, and we have good evidence for a claim that isn't all that extraordinary anyway.

I also agree that Wormhole is likely to be lower-leveled and augmentable. Transporting an army would require it to be the equivalent of a 9th-level power (i.e., costing at least 17 PP), but transporting a triceratops and three riders wouldn't. This is reinforced by the fact that the original 2nd edition version was, effectively, augmentable, though that's admittedly weak evidence given how different the 2nd and 3rd edition psionics systems are. In any event, it's certainly possible that it's a lower-level augmented power, which makes it problematic to prove any lower bounds using it.

And I have no strong opinion one way or the other about the layout of the different groups.

[Ramien]

Whose downside is a fort save which is not augmentable (telekinetic maneuver, as I noted, is augmentable which means that Laurin could theoretically pump up the checks to blow by Roy's str mod). I see your point, I just think it has more check marks against it than TM.

Now if Laurin had said, "He's helpless now", I'd conceed the point. But since she 'only' said "He's locked down", it seems to me to be overkill. Much like Mind Probe is overkill for the power manifested in 913.

Completely understandable. I think I'm just weighing the downsides differently, and trying to conserve Laurin's PP - and considering both are the same level power, I wouldn't consider either one overkill.

[Kornaki]

I actually no longer think that telekinetic maneuver or control body is sufficient. Roy is gored on the lower middle horn - in the fourth panel it looks like he's being held up by a horn, but it's the wrong horn. He's actually levitating in the air it seems.

[Porthos]

I actually no longer think that telekinetic maneuver or control body is sufficient. Roy is gored on the lower middle horn - in the fourth panel it looks like he's being held up by a horn, but it's the wrong horn. He's actually levitating in the air it seems.

Psionic Levitate could work if Laurin was a nomad (and indeed was my first guess)..... except it can't be used on unwilling people.

I would subscribe horn discrepancies to either art errors/limitations/perspective tricks or the possibility that Roy is being bounced around.

[Ramien]

I actually no longer think that telekinetic maneuver or control body is sufficient. Roy is gored on the lower middle horn - in the fourth panel it looks like he's being held up by a horn, but it's the wrong horn. He's actually levitating in the air it seems.

If you're really going to get into the way it looks, then you can also include the fact that the power is only encompassing Roy's head, not his whole body like you'd expect from a telekinetic power (which both powers under discussion are). While that would indicate something like Brain Lock, it has all the same weakness in its argument that Control body does except it targets Will - but is a lower level power, so Roy might be able to save anyways. That and it's still not going to lift Roy when it happens.

[Mike Havran]

Laurin's avatar is still missing and Pompey's seems to be messed up.

[Porthos]

Laurin's avatar is still missing.

From the Order of the Stick Smilie Thread






And the currently working Pompey one:

[zimmerwald1915]

Psionic Levitate could work if Laurin was a nomad (and indeed was my first guess)..... except it can't be used on unwilling people.

I would subscribe horn discrepancies to either art errors/limitations/perspective tricks or the possibility that Roy is being bounced around.

Take a look at Tarquin's left boot. It is on top of Roy's left arm. To me, this indicates that Roy's arm is resting on something solid. It must be, in order to support Tarquin's weight. The only thing underneath Roy is the triceratops' frill. I would argue that Roy's whole body is resting on the frill and the base of the triceratops' left horn, with Roy's head in the middle of the frill, his pelvis on the horn, and his legs dangling.

Also, not that it matters, it suggests a preliminary timeline of actions for one round and the beginning of another:

Miron casts baleful polymorph on Bloodfeast.
Roy stands up.
Trike gores Roy, who drops his sword.
Haley fires an arrow ineffectually, then flies up.
Durkon and Belkar hold their actions.
Laurin grapples Roy with telekinetic maneuver.
Tarquin pins Roy, makes a big dramatic declaration that he's dead [next round].
Elan casts lesser confusion on Trike, causing her to buck and throw everybody on top of her to the ground.
V casts prismatic spray, plane shifting Trike, burning Laurin, and electrocuting Miron.

Roy picks up his sword and stands up again.

[Gift Jeraff]

Would crafting the Talisman of Dorukan count as evidence that he has Craft [Epic?] Wondrous Item?

Also, I suppose the runes that ward off the monsters should go in his spell list.

[Dark Matter]

Tarquin took 40-or-80 points of damage... but he's untouched, so it's probably 0. Evasion?

[Ramien]

Tarquin took 40-or-80 points of damage... but he's untouched, so it's probably 0. Evasion?

It was only 20 or 40 depending on if he made his save or not. Debate continues on if it were evasion (which would require light or no armor) or a magic item that provided spell resistance or acid resistance.

[b_jonas]

Could you modify Durkon's entry so it lists Durkon's current domains explicitly, or, if we don't know the domains, explicitly say that.

[RMS Oceanic]

I think the absence of domains is explicit enough for us to infer we don't know what they are. For the arcane casters we generally don't say that we don't know what spells they have. And that indeed is where we stand with Durkon: Until a scene where he refreshes his spells comes along, we don't know where he stands, and maybe not even then.

[Coat]

.... While that would indicate something like Brain Lock, it has all the same weakness in its argument that Control body does except it targets Will - but is a lower level power, so Roy might be able to save anyways. That and it's still not going to lift Roy when it happens.

Brain Lock looks perfect to me for Laurin's attack on Haley, though.



Wormhole gives you all the battlefield mobility of Greater Teleport, which is lvl 8 for a Psion, but unlike Teleport, doesn't require you actually move to the target point - so you can open up a wormhole for a rogue to make a sneak attack, and then close it again before the enemy gets a chance to respond, or without the rogue or caster having to enter a hostile environment.

And unlike teleport, you could stick one end in a volcano, and use it to pour lava all over your foes, or their city. Or you can use it to put an army inside the enemy banqueting hall. Or...

And unlike a wizard or sorcerer, who only get a couple of castings of their level 9 powers, a Psion can manifest theirs, as we've seen, a LOT of times. For a powerful battlefield control and utility spell like this, that's a huge edge.

For a Wizard, with the ability to cast it say 3 or 4 times per day, and needing to ration its use - yeah, maybe lvl 8. For a Psion: lvl 9.

Why do you think Psionic Greater Teleport is a level higher than the arcane version?

[Chronos]

We don't actually know that Wormhole has no chance of landing off-target. Teleport might be the proper comparison, not Greater Teleport.

[zimmerwald1915]

We don't actually know that Wormhole has no chance of landing off-target. Teleport might be the proper comparison, not Greater Teleport.

Come on. Laurin has planted more than six wormholes precisely to her satisfaction (Miron is another matter). Tarquin assumed she'd be able to precisely intercept the Order, and that's just what she did. The 2E description says nothing about going off-target. I think we can safely say there's no off-target chance.

[Living Oxymoron]

Come on. Laurin has planted more than six wormholes precisely to her satisfaction (Miron is another matter). Tarquin assumed she'd be able to precisely intercept the Order, and that's just what she did. The 2E description says nothing about going off-target. I think we can safely say there's no off-target chance.

Tarquin even assumes that Laurin could open a Wormhole to the next dungeon, which probably she never saw or went to!

[halfeye]

Thanks for gathering the information together.

There are a few thing which could be improved. Kilkil isn't a member of Team Tarquin yet, he was in the Linear Guild, before that he was a functionary in the Empire of Blood, and presumably still is.

There isn't yet an entry in Team Tarquin for Miron, or tiger girl, though we know both their names (but I forget the latter), nor for pauldron guy, whose name isn't yet known.

Again thanks, and I'm sure these will be added as time goes by.

[Flame of Anor]

Kilkil is effectively a member of Team Tarquin, because he's Tarquin's personal aide.

[RickDaily12]

Kraagor (Erradicated)
*snip*

I object to this status under Kraagor.

Because of the current knowledge we have of the rifts (here, here, here, and here,) we don't actually know if his soul no longer exists... or if he is even dead.

I think a better status would be: Kraagor (Missing In Action)

[Flame of Anor]

I think a better status would be: Kraagor (Missing In Action)

I second this.

[RMS Oceanic]

I object to this status under Kraagor.

Because of the current knowledge we have of the rifts (here, here, here, and here,) we don't actually know if his soul no longer exists... or if he is even dead.

I think a better status would be: Kraagor (Missing In Action)

Something, if not the Snarl, has killed from those rifts before., In addition, 276 indicates that the eyewitnesses believe Kraagor to be dead, and Girard's jab at Soon doesn't make much sense to me if he didn't believe Kraagor was dead. Kraagor may turn out to be King of Snarlworld, but since everyone believes he's dead and nothing currently contradicts that, that's why I'd personally keep it as is until we learn otherwise.