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2013-12-20, 07:02 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Class and Level Geekery XI - Can Now Argue Three Times Per Page
That wouldn't be a splice since the definition of a splice requires 2 or more things, and they specifically stated they weren't allowed to put another soul into V's body because that violates the contract. We're only dealing with V's soul here.
If your contention is that the inserting of a soul into any body replenishes health and spell slots, I point you to Raise Dead and Resurrection. Those spells arguably restore the soul into the body and replenish health, but they specifically do not replenish spell slots. In fact, Raise Dead gives you a 50% chance to lose prepared spells.
Oh, and by the way - I didn't say a Soul Splice was special. The fiends said it was a once-in-a-century deal. Read panel 2 here. Now, could they be lying? Perhaps - but I tend to think that the Giant isn't lying and that we aren't going to see Soul Splices everywhere.Last edited by orrion; 2013-12-20 at 07:39 PM.
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2013-12-20, 07:16 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Class and Level Geekery XI - Can Now Argue Three Times Per Page
This is perhaps piling on at this point, but its worth noting that replenishing spell slots is, as has been noted, an extremely powerful and virtually non-existent ability because its an enormous power multiplier for a caster.
If putting a soul into a body replenished spell slots, every wizard of any consequence would know techniques for putting souls into bodies because wizards who could do it would be dramatically more powerful than wizards who couldn't and wizards are fond of increasing their power.
If, instead, it required that a major fiend put a soul into the wizard's body to replenish their spell-slots, every wizard of consequence would be a servant of those major fiends because of the magnitude of the power increase. There wouldn't really be battles between good and evil because the ones who did serve the fiends would be dramatically more powerful than same-level ones who didn't, leading to some really one-sided battles and easy recruiting for the fiends.
AFAIK, all the wizards of consequence in the Stick-verse are not thralls of their demonic overlords. Additionally, Varsuvius, despite being a fairly advanced wizard, didn't instantly know that putting a soul into a body replenish spellslots so it must be more complicated than that. As such, spell-slot replenishment must be a very rare and difficult thing to do, which fits with the fiends description of the soulsplice as being a once-in-a-century kind of thing.
Edit -
Personally, I believe the Giant, contrary to his comments, has every character of significance stat-ed at least at a basic level (I have total confidence that the Giant knows exactly what level all the major characters are, what classes they have, their gear, spellslots, and the bulk of their feats mapped out). Its part of the story-telling, because it implicitly gives context to the decisions and helps flesh out the characters, whether we're directly made aware of it or not.
If the Giant needs a plot-point to go a particular way for the benefit of the story, then that's what he'll do. But sometimes what's narratively the best choice doesn't make sense given the range of abilities the characters would have. He's ok with that because Story > Fidelity to the rules. But when it happens, he *knows* that the character is doing something that isn't correct for their level, class, etc. Don't confuse not caring with not knowing. Well, he *does* care, its just that the Story has to come first.
But people like to play "gotcha" and that pisses the Giant off. So he fixes the dilemma by simply not telling us what level and class everyone is, allowing some plausible deniability and letting the story run more smoothly.Last edited by Crusher; 2013-12-20 at 07:32 PM.
"You are what you do. Choose again and change." - Miles Vorkosigan
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2013-12-20, 07:42 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Class and Level Geekery XI - Can Now Argue Three Times Per Page
Crusher, by your logic, then why is anybody a fighter or rogue, when wizards are so much more powerful?
Story logic: Conservation of detail. The giant mentioned that spells would be replenished for a reason. I don't remember V using much in the way of spells after losing the splices. (Just invisibility, IIRC). Therefore it's likely that Giant has a plan for the replenishment of spells to come at a later date.
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2013-12-20, 08:01 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Class and Level Geekery XI - Can Now Argue Three Times Per Page
No, it isn't. First because no soul was inserted onto V. Second, because instant resting is uncommon enough that the IFCC had to outright state it the first time to V. Third, because they're in no kind of contractual obligation (such as the one when they spliced her) to V. Fourth, because it's infinitely simpler that V simply leveled and raised her main attribute than that the fiends would do something that is explicitly stated as being one of the effects of a soul splice outside of one just for the lulz.
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2013-12-20, 08:13 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Class and Level Geekery XI - Can Now Argue Three Times Per Page
A long time ago, during the palace arc, we saw Malack, V & Durkon chatting in a discussion that made it sound like Malack had a rope belt. Now that Durkon has, at least, Malack's staff, we should probably keep an eye out for any indications that Durkon looted a rope belt off of his corpse as well.
Mind you, I don't know that there's any good evidence for this yet, but just something to watch for.
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2013-12-20, 08:49 PM (ISO 8601)
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2013-12-20, 09:26 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Class and Level Geekery XI - Can Now Argue Three Times Per Page
"You are what you do. Choose again and change." - Miles Vorkosigan
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2013-12-20, 09:42 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Class and Level Geekery XI - Can Now Argue Three Times Per Page
You are deliberately twisting the circumstances to make it seem as if they are "the same". They are not; not even close.
Vaarsuvius was in control of his body when he underwent the soul splice. They attached three foreign souls to his own.
When they returned V's soul to his body, there were no soul in it. There was nothing to splice V's soul unto, because that is not what they were doing.
They specifically said that the soul splice caused his spells to be replenished. Until we see some evidence to the effect that a) V was soul spliced again, or b) the Directors exhibit powers specifically towards the restoration of daily spells slots outside of soul splices, then any speculation that the IFCC caused V to have his full repertoire of spells back is just that: pure speculation, with no evidence.
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2013-12-20, 10:02 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Class and Level Geekery XI - Can Now Argue Three Times Per Page
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2013-12-20, 10:17 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Class and Level Geekery XI - Can Now Argue Three Times Per Page
There is strong evidence that Xykon is lv 28+. (12th level spell)
There is weak evidence that Xykon is lowered level. (Comments to roy, 12th level spell can be explained through speculation)
And so the thread lists Xykon as only lv 21+
There is strong evidence that V is lv 16 and 24 int.
There is weak in-comic evidence that V could have had spells replenished. Yes it's speculative. It's a stretch sure, but it's still a reasonable stretch to demonstrate a mere possibility.
Therefore V cannot be listed as lv16 and 24int.
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2013-12-20, 10:24 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Class and Level Geekery XI - Can Now Argue Three Times Per Page
I like semicolons; they make me feel smart.
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2013-12-20, 10:24 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Class and Level Geekery XI - Can Now Argue Three Times Per Page
Last edited by Douglas; 2013-12-20 at 10:24 PM.
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2013-12-20, 10:29 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Class and Level Geekery XI - Can Now Argue Three Times Per Page
If you want to play it like that, then lets speculate that V has a 2nd ring of wizardry of a different level giving her another +4 spells.
But I'd rank "An effect mentioned in a slightly similar but far from identical situation" as higher evidence than "an item never alluded to at all in the comic"Last edited by JustWantedToSay; 2013-12-20 at 10:30 PM.
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2013-12-20, 10:33 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Class and Level Geekery XI - Can Now Argue Three Times Per Page
Removing someone's soul from their body for 20 minutes is most definitely not similar to anchoring three souls to an existing one during a time stop. Other than the participants being the same individuals, the two situations are not even remotely comparable.
Also, I was under the impression that the explanation for Xykon's spell was the switch of the sorcerer familiar he lacks for a different class ability that would allow that particular metamagic to be performed as a standard action - am I wrong?
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2013-12-20, 10:38 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Class and Level Geekery XI - Can Now Argue Three Times Per Page
I like semicolons; they make me feel smart.
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2013-12-20, 11:07 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Class and Level Geekery XI - Can Now Argue Three Times Per Page
I'm sorry, I think it should. Homebrew or core material, both were never mentioned in the comics. The case of Xykon is even worse... I never saw him using rods, wands or staffs to, at least, follow some pattern of the kind of items to which he resorts.
I think we have strong and verisimilar evidence to state that Vaarsuvius is now level 16 and with Int 24. Likewise, we have strong evidence that Xykon is level 26 because of his spell slots above 9th level. But some of us will not agree with the change because a least possibility on the contrary seems to disprove obvious things in this thread.Let me tell you, "safe" is for NPCs. I live on the edge.
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2013-12-20, 11:21 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Class and Level Geekery XI - Can Now Argue Three Times Per Page
No, there's zero evidence that a Soul Splice was done. A match of 1 criterion for the Soul Splice does not mean Soul Splice. Especially when in-comic evidence directly contradicts it because the fiends say it's a once-in-a-century deal.
Besides, even if they were lying, why would they suddenly start Splicing Vaarsuvius for free?
And while we're at it, why is there no evidence of the other soul(s) or an alteration of V's appearance like the first time? The point here is you can't say that because a singular aspect of a Soul Splice occurred that another Soul Splice was done when every other aspect of a Soul Splice is absent.
With Xykon, in-comic evidence doesn't directly contradict any of the interpretations. So they all currently stand until there's incontrovertible evidence for one of them, and the thread uses the lowest threshold.
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2013-12-20, 11:23 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Class and Level Geekery XI - Can Now Argue Three Times Per Page
That is completely a false equivalency. Personally I think Xykon is almost certainly 28+, but there is a RAW explanation that would allow him to be only 21+. The only explanation put forward for V having replenished spells is an unsupported variation on a homebrewed effect. We know that the soul splice did not occur in its standard form--and even that standard form is homebrewed! Not only do we have no explanation for V getting replenished spells that abides by RAW, we don't even have one that abides by established homebrew!
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2013-12-20, 11:39 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Class and Level Geekery XI - Can Now Argue Three Times Per Page
No, obviously the replenishment didn't happen due to anything relating to the fiends. V's spell slots obviously refreshed due to talking to Belkar. There's precedent: The soul splice involved talking to someone, and that replenished slots, and so talking to someone else could also replenish slots. Obviously, the Giant is using a houserule that halflings can automatically replenish spellcasters' slots by talking to them.
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2013-12-20, 11:49 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Class and Level Geekery XI - Can Now Argue Three Times Per Page
I think the Splice is worse because that's such a broken mechanic in terms of power. Which lends weight to the idea that it's not going to be used again. Plus we still have the fiends stating it's a once-a-century occurrence.
The speculations about Xykon's magic items probably persists because a) we know he has magic items and - perhaps more importantly - b) we know he can craft magic items and has spent in-comic time doing so. For months. He also has the prerequisite feat.
Meanwhile, V being Spliced just doesn't fit. At all. It contradicts what was said and it contradicts what we've seen when a Splice actually happens.
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2013-12-20, 11:54 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Class and Level Geekery XI - Can Now Argue Three Times Per Page
If all the spell slots would be replenished, V would not have to cast Overland Flight again? It was still active after he awoke.
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2013-12-20, 11:56 PM (ISO 8601)
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2013-12-21, 12:02 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Class and Level Geekery XI - Can Now Argue Three Times Per Page
Last edited by 137beth; 2013-12-21 at 12:03 AM.
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2013-12-21, 12:11 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Class and Level Geekery XI - Can Now Argue Three Times Per Page
In 920, V says "I retain one additional Fly spell to cast". IE V has 1 Fly spell left. Meaning the V had a Fly spell which was cast earlier. Since 918, when V returned from her trip to Hell, had yet to cast a Fly spell. To extrapolate, there had been 2+ Fly spells prepared, one of which was cast prior to V's temporary imprisonment. If V's spell slots were restored, V would not say "I retain one Fly spell to cast". V would say "I have one Fly spll to cast."
Last edited by MesiDoomstalker; 2013-12-21 at 12:12 AM.
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2013-12-21, 12:40 AM (ISO 8601)
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2013-12-21, 01:11 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Class and Level Geekery XI - Can Now Argue Three Times Per Page
Why does it have to say restoring spell slots? Instead of the rejuvenating effect of soul spilces, you could imagine other crazy ways why Varsaavius has an extra spell.
We've seen that the fiends were capable of putting an advanced time stop effect on the whole island that lasted more than a few turns. Maybe they put a time stop effect on Varsaavius right after she woke up, and she could heal and rest and meditate for nine hours.
Or maybe that bauble Blackwing stole isn't an orange prism ioun stone as we think, but an ioun stone that stores spells or gives an intelligence bonus or gives extra spell slots? Varsaavius gets a high circumstance bonus which is why she could spot Blackwing take the ioun stone from Miron immediately, and with his high intelligence she added the extra spells he gets from the stone to the tally right away.
Or maybe Varsaavius didn't cast so many overland flight spells from his spell slots, but used potions, scroll, wand, staff, rod, or ring storing the spell effect.
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2013-12-21, 01:22 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Class and Level Geekery XI - Can Now Argue Three Times Per Page
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2013-12-21, 01:32 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Class and Level Geekery XI - Can Now Argue Three Times Per Page
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2013-12-21, 01:32 AM (ISO 8601)
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2013-12-21, 01:40 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Class and Level Geekery XI - Can Now Argue Three Times Per Page
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