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Thread: Banning PHB
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2014-07-24, 04:19 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2013
Banning PHB
So in a few months I am planning to run my group through the evil campaign Way of the Wicked. I've read in a few places about running campaigns without the PHB because it contains more of the unbalanced spells and aspects of the game. I also like the idea of this because it will force my players to venture out of their comfort zones ( in a year and a half we have had no multi class players and only one take a prestige class). I think they will like it once they get going.
Do you guys think this is an ok idea for an evil campaign? And what difficulties should I expect? I know I will need to allow certain feats from the PHB, anything else?
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2014-07-24, 04:20 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2013
Re: Banning PHB
ban the problem spells and the problem classes. not the whole book.
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2014-07-24, 04:31 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2009
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Re: Banning PHB
Leave the mundane feats alone. Most of them (with a couple notable exceptions) aren't actually very good, but they're often required for other feats or for PrCs, or they're just required by the system to play a certain style of character (just try making an archer without Precise Shot and see how much fun it is).
Of course, you could also give a lot of them out for free, since they're feat taxes rather than things that you should have to pay for. Power Attack, TWF, most of the archery feats . . .In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers
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2014-07-24, 04:37 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2011
Re: Banning PHB
Well first off, Way of the Wicked is Pathfinder, not 3.5. As far as banning the PHB. I would recommend against blanket bans unless you've had specific issues. In my experience it's much easier to ban something once you know it's a problem then to wind up banning things that aren't going to be. Also banning things like that seems vindictive and not a fair choice, if the players have seen the unbalance themselves then banning/trading things will seem more fair, and that's important. Also if you're banning the Pathfinder PHB it's going to be more difficult to get anything done, since they have significantly less splat books.
My Avatar is Glimtwizzle, a Gnomish Fighter/Illusionist by Cuthalion.
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2014-07-24, 05:38 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2013
Re: Banning PHB
I think that's more of an expression used for shock value than something people actually do for game balance.
I mean 7/11 classes are about as benign as can be, the feats are integral for any sort of nonmagical character, and the systemic power imbalances between casters and no casters remain - just you're talking about Samurai, Scouts, Sohei and Archivists instead of Fighters, Rogues, Barbarians and Wizards.
But as a one-shot gimmick, sure it could be fun to push players toward subsystems like ToB and Psionics instead of vanilla mundane classes and vancian casters. But don't expect removing the option of dipping Fighter 2, for example, after Warblade 3 to do any wonders for game balance.
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2014-07-24, 07:04 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2009
Re: Banning PHB
Here's what I tried for a mostly non-core game:
First, ban the core classes and spells. Feat prerequisites are too much a part of the game to ban all PHB feats without a fair amount of extra work, so I keep all the core feats.
For items, I'd suggest keeping all the non-magical items in the PHB unaltered. If you want to ban core magic items, I strongly recommend house-ruling that magic weapons and armors do not need a +1 minimum, and allowing non-core weapon/armor enhancements. This is generally a boost to the characters who use weapons, since the required +1 is worse than other enhancements.
For magic item creation, if an item lists a core spell as a prerequisite, replace it with an appropriate caster level prerequisite. As an exception, eternal wands and similar items which cast core spells should be banned along with the spells they emulate.
I've done this before and it's worked out fairly well. I allowed the core races, though, since they have the most support in racial substitution levels. One thing to keep in mind, though, is that you won't be seeing any non-core "normal" spellcasters like beguilers or dread necromancers. Most of the non-core caster's spell lists are drawn from the PHB spells, so banning PHB spells effectively bans those classes as well. You'll end up with a lot more psionics, binders, warlocks, incarnum, and martial adepts.Last edited by 137beth; 2014-07-24 at 07:05 PM.
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2014-07-24, 07:30 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2014
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2014-07-24, 07:39 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2005
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Re: Banning PHB
Be specific about what you're banning. I would ban the core races, the core classes, the core spells, all magic items from the DMG (excepting simple +X armors and weapons), and I would ban the Monster Manual subraces of the PHB races. At that point you're forcing players to think well outside of the box.
It's important to consider what you're cutting. No detect magic, no identify, no cure spells, and no raise dead spells are probably the most significant. There are equivalent spells from other sourcebooks, but they tend to have flavor limitations which are interesting. You can also ban those spells on a case-by-case basis, or ban broad categories (like "no magic for raising the dead").Last edited by Thomar_of_Uointer; 2014-07-24 at 07:41 PM.
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2014-07-24, 07:53 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2013
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2014-07-24, 08:04 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2013
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- Red Dragon Territory
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2014-07-24, 08:22 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2007
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- Canberra, Australia
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Re: Banning PHB
In banning the PHB for the players, are you banning it for the entire setting? That means no temples will have clerics (assuming there are even temples). Guards and soldiers will be equipped with... what exactly?
While there are plenty of overpowered classes in the PHB, there are plenty in the splatbooks as well. Worried about how broken the cleric is, meet the equally broken archivist class.
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2014-07-24, 08:25 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2011
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Re: Banning PHB
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2014-07-24, 08:35 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2011
Re: Banning PHB
My Avatar is Glimtwizzle, a Gnomish Fighter/Illusionist by Cuthalion.
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2014-07-24, 09:20 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2013
Re: Banning PHB
so spellcasters cannot get dispell magic or cure wondes? it looks lame to me.
Last edited by With a box; 2014-07-24 at 09:21 PM.
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2014-07-24, 10:15 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2005
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Re: Banning PHB
I make games.
"...I worry that modern gaming is gradually shrinking the wide spectrum of gameplay mechanics into a single narrow red bar with "KILL" written on it sideways. Exploration, navigation, puzzles, platforming, all gradually shrinking away until only one thing remains, being taken by the hand from room to room, moving on only when nothing remains alive in each one." - Yhatzee Crosshaw
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2014-07-24, 10:29 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2014
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- Sovereign State of Denial
Re: Banning PHB
I don't ban anything out-of-hand. I allow my players an extreme amount of freedom, and it works out well. But my players aren't good examples, because they're inexperienced. Do what you will, but you won't be waiting long for complaints.
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2014-07-24, 10:32 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2014
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2014-07-24, 10:48 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2007
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Re: Banning PHB
I'm just popping in to say this inspired me to try a PbP with Core banned (General feats and skills are the only things kept). It needs a GM, but if anyone's interested, recruitment is here
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2014-07-24, 11:43 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2013
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Re: Banning PHB
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2014-07-25, 03:08 AM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2006
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Re: Banning PHB
I think it's worth trying. Play a Favored Soul. Pick up Spell Compendium and you've got a couple dozen Cleric spells at every level from 1 through 7 already. There are more spells in Complete Scoundrel, Complete Mage, Complete Champion, and Player's Handbook II. Yes, if you finally get to 9th level spells you'll have a short list to choose from; I'd hardly call that a serious impediment to playing without Player's Handbook spells.
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2014-07-25, 07:49 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2010
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Re: Banning PHB
You could draw up a short white list of spells and classes which are allowed from the PH.
Or you could draw up a, larger, black list of things which are banned.π = 4
Consider a 5' radius blast: this affects 4 squares which have a circumference of 40' — Actually it's worse than that.
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2014-07-25, 08:02 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2012
Re: Banning PHB
I ran Way of the Wicked as a Mythic version. Had to radically change the monsters but your party may need power creep at points of the written adventure. It is one where if the players don't play very smart that can easily get overrun. I added mythic more to let my players truly go mad and wicked for once, little intrigue and role play, nice grab the power and smash the enemies with no drama.
if you are worried about OP, what I recommend is to keep pathfinder and 3.x separate at this junction. Some of the spells that pathfinder nerfed tend to truely bend the game, and the feats truely do like persistant spell and such.
YMMV, but PM or such if ya want, was a blast to run for me.
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2014-07-25, 09:16 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2013
Re: Banning PHB
Whats this? PHB is banned? Hold on, let me get my StP erudite out.
Or my Sha'ir/Sainbow Servant
Or maybe 140% real shadow mage.
Silly DM is silly