Pathfinder Gish for a New Player

[tadkins]

Is it because big swords are cool?

That's it right there. I have a character concept in mind that I'm developing and this is what I would want for his signature weapon.

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Been doing a lot of reading regarding how I would want to build him and it's basically boiled down to either a Magus, a Fighter/Wizard/EK, or a fighting-based Dark Tapestry Oracle. I want a smart, inquisitive, adventurous guy with a lot of spells (particularly exploration and observation spells) that isn't too bad with a sword when combat hits.

[Spore]

I'd like to play a Sorcadin if it's doable in PF, I know Abj.Champ is usually required and it isn't in the PFSRD. But basically any Gish works for me. Anyone have any suggestions?

There are so many option it's not even funny.

Magus: Damage focussed Gish that uses its power to overkill. May have a slight problem on longer adventuring days.
Full BAB 1 /Wizard 4 into Eldritch Knight: More varied casting than the Magus, but far less damaging. Preferred method of combat is prebuffing and then going in.
Warpriest, Bard, Melee oriented Druid or Cleric as well as Inquisitor, Alchemist, Investigator or Summoner, Hunter, Skald and to some extent Bloodrager can be considered gishes as well.

But there is something you will probably feel right at home coming from 3.5:

Paladin 2/Sorcerer 3 into Dragon Disciple. You gain:
- Cha to saves
- Smite Evil
- somewhat stunted Sorcerer casting, but it is the real thing. Not some specialized spell list, proper wizard/sorcerer spells.
- full martial ability
- medium GAB (on average) plus huge boni on Strength and 3 natural attacks (which are arguably better than iteratives right until 18ish levels).
- continued Pala2/Sorc3/DD 8 (you get wings from your bloodline and an Robe of Arcane Heritage early enough anyway) into more Sorcerer levels provides you with superior spellcasting. You just need spells to see after your somewhat mediocre BAB and lacking HP and defense. But considering how many spells per day you have buffing up plentifully isn't a problem really.

You just have to play smart and not force the melee combat into every situation. Big groups? Fly over them and blast them with fireballs, dragon breath or fear spells. One big dude? Cast Dragon Form and go to town. Your character should exert pressure from all the spells that are cast upon him. False Life, Mage Armor, Heroism, Magic Circle against Evil, should be active all the time.

Depending on the situation, you cast Shield, Protection from Arrows, Resist Energy, Invisibility, Greater Invisibility, Stoneskin, Elemental Touch, Mirror Image, Displacment. etc.

Although I prefer pure Sorcerer into Dragon Disciple (and delay DD5 in favor of another Sorcerer level giving me access to better spells) you can easily just go into DD with Paladin levels.
Just read this: http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2nffu?Ot...ragon-Disciple

[Florian]

@Sporeegg/topic:

I'd draw the line by looking at the economy of actions involved.
If being able to cast and fight makes you a gish, then nearly all classes should be counted towards being this, making the distinction somewhat meaningless.

I propose looking at the economy of actions. If a class can do both things at the same time, them it should be counted as a gish in PF.

That'll leave Magus, Warpriest and Bloodrager.

[Kurald Galain]

That's it right there. I have a character concept in mind that I'm developing and this is what I would want for his signature weapon.

A bastard sword could cover that well enough; you can switch between 1H and 2H at need. Speaking of cool swords, have you seen the Bladebound Magus archetype?

Been doing a lot of reading regarding how I would want to build him and it's basically boiled down to either a Magus, a Fighter/Wizard/EK, or a fighting-based Dark Tapestry Oracle. I want a smart, inquisitive, adventurous guy with a lot of spells (particularly exploration and observation spells) that isn't too bad with a sword when combat hits.

Simply put, if you want a gish, play the Magus. If you want a wizard who has a sword in his hand, play the Eldritch Knight. The EK gets better spells at high level, but has to choose between casting or attacking each round, whereas the Magus does both (in addition to wearing armor and switching his weapon enchantments at need every combat). I don't see anything particularly gishy about the DT oracle, but in my view the arcane spell list is better than the cleric list at exploration and observation.

[Kurald Galain]

Magus: Damage focussed Gish that uses its power to overkill. May have a slight problem on longer adventuring days.

What do you consider a "longer" adventuring day, and why would he have a problem?

Also, note that while the most well-known Magus is indeed damage focused, it's also one of the best maneuver-using classes in the game, and can be built as an effective debuffer or crowd controller.

I propose looking at the economy of actions. If a class can do both things at the same time, them it should be counted as a gish in PF.

I agree. Doing both casting and melee makes you a gish, alternating them makes you a switch hitter.

[Spore]

What do you consider a "longer" adventuring day, and why would he have a problem?

If the Magus uses every opportunity to deal damage with spells, numbers have shown that they have to resort to spamming Ray of Frost in the third fight of the day, just to get Spell Combat off.

We started with a Magus on 7th level and it would VAPORIZE any opposition. But after a few rounds of dealing well beyond 100 DPR it spells are exhausted.

I'd draw the line by looking at the economy of actions involved.

That is why I told you about the spells that are cast at the start of the day. Mage Armor and False Life are hours/level. The other spells are cast upon entering "enemy territory" (Heroism, Circle against Evil, Resist Energy) because they last 10 minutes/level.

I agree that the combat style is somewhat switch hitting but I do not feel that takes away from the fact that you are a heavily spell inclined melee character.

[tadkins]

A bastard sword could cover that well enough; you can switch between 1H and 2H at need. Speaking of cool swords, have you seen the Bladebound Magus archetype?

I have, and the intelligent weapon sounds extremely badass. I think I would definitely go with that archetype. xD

Simply put, if you want a gish, play the Magus. If you want a wizard who has a sword in his hand, play the Eldritch Knight. The EK gets better spells at high level, but has to choose between casting or attacking each round, whereas the Magus does both (in addition to wearing armor and switching his weapon enchantments at need every combat). I don't see anything particularly gishy about the DT oracle, but in my view the arcane spell list is better than the cleric list at exploration and observation.

I was told the Oracle was pretty melee-y (I originally presented the concept as sort of a "Void Knight"), and a guide said that DT was one of the good warrior mysteries.

For sure, and it's a really tough choice. I'm looking to see if there are items that might replicate the extra stuff I would want to do (planar/interstellar travel, scrying, surviving hostile environments). If they exist I think the Magus would be the clear choice.

With that said, I really appreciate your feedback. Thank you, Kurald. :)

[Spore]

I feel Oracles are superior when it comes to dealing with the planes. Earlier Plane Shift and easier access to Planar Ally. But if you want someone travelling the planes maybe a Synth. Summoner is right up your alley.

[Kurald Galain]

If the Magus uses every opportunity to deal damage with spells, numbers have shown that they have to resort to spamming Ray of Frost in the third fight of the day, just to get Spell Combat off.

So change your tactics. You don't need to pull your 100 DPR nova every round; that's why it's a nova.

A Magus has 11 spells per day at level seven, can get more from spell recall, and should carry a few pearls of power. That gives you 15 spells per day, or three spells per combat for five combats (and after that, use touch attack cantrips, not ray of frost). That covers a longer day just fine.

For sure, and it's a really tough choice. I'm looking to see if there are items that might replicate the extra stuff I would want to do (planar/interstellar travel, scrying, surviving hostile environments). If they exist I think the Magus would be the clear choice.

Spell Blending arcana lets you grab any spell you like from the wizard list (up to level 6, of course).

[Florian]

@Kurald Galadin:

I think this has to do with the class lending itself well to some kind of overkill mentality. It is too easy to always nuke away without it actually being necessary.

Had two notable occasions with this problem:
One involved a new player who got the impression that an attack without spell combat/spellstrike was not possible, thereby burning all his spell slots.
The other was actually a veteran player who was deep into 3,5 and mostly into Initiator classes and tryed to squeeze similiar results from the Magus.

[Kurald Galain]

@Kurald Galadin:

I think this has to do with the class lending itself well to some kind of overkill mentality. It is too easy to always nuke away without it actually being necessary.

Yes, I've seen that. One of the reasons I've written the Magus Guide is to show that you can do much more with the class than just spamming shocking grasp.

[Florian]

@tadkins:

If you're comcerned about the style and want to keep using a 2H, so, out of curiosity, have you considered the other two gish options, Warpriest and Bloodrager? Both actually do quite well with these kinds of weapon.

[tadkins]

I feel Oracles are superior when it comes to dealing with the planes. Earlier Plane Shift and easier access to Planar Ally. But if you want someone travelling the planes maybe a Synth. Summoner is right up your alley.

Oracle does have a lot of what I was looking for. Dark Tapestry one even moreso. I've never really looked at the Summoner, but I will check it out. Thanks. :)

Spell Blending arcana lets you grab any spell you like from the wizard list (up to level 6, of course).

This would cover some of it. It's a bloody shame you can't get Plane Shift up there though.

@tadkins:

If you're comcerned about the style and want to keep using a 2H, so, out of curiosity, have you considered the other two gish options, Warpriest and Bloodrager? Both actually do quite well with these kinds of weapon.

I just took a look at them but the fluff doesn't really match up with what I want for the concept. I was thinking of a Link/Sora-style adventurer that's decent with a sword, has access to magic, and can solve problems with his mind.