[Unchained Monk Guide] YOU ARE ALREADY DEAD

[Secret Wizard]

Linkz.

Enjoy, discuss.

[Florian]

Just writing down some thought while I read your guide.

Class Analysis:
I think you overdo/overrate the Barkskin Qinggong power. Nice spell to have, but not that important.

In regards to attack ratings, I think it is pretty much important to point out that this class potentially has the highest number of attacks based on its highest BAB (4, including the spent KI point). In addition, the old TWF-reduction doesn´t happen anymore.

Race Selection:
You can actually achieve Dex2DMG with an (Un)Monk. Now there´s a funny thing with the "small" races and the "Reduce Person" spell, as you can shrink to tiny for even more to-hit, higher AC and trading damage dice size for more solid static damage boni.

Missing: Tengu and advanced options, especially class dipping. Swordmaster is one of the only few ways right now to have more than one Style feat up (Trance class feature).

Features:
Again, overemphasis on Barkskin.

Feats:
Should notice that Hamatulatsu let´s you shift damage type of IUS from B to P and works well with Fencing Grace. The crit rider is a nice addition, too.

Hammer the Gap: Scaling damage bonus based on number of attacks.

Missing Nightmare Fist feat chain for Drow, Hobgoblin, Tieflings and Void-Kineticist dips.

Equipment:
Hands: Deliquescent Gloves. Corrosive enhancement on all attacks.

Missing: Sword Saint katana. Your end-game high crit flurry weapon. Especially on a Tengu.

Body: Hamatulatsu Robe is a good alternative to a Monk´s Robe and upgrades/works with the mentioned Hamatulatsu feat.

Considerations and Alternatives:
Overlap with Class Analysis section. Strengths/Limitations repeat and could be folded into one section.

Missing Kineticist (Elemental Fist) as alternative and good dipping option

Generally Missing:
Section on VMC, especially Fighter, Cleric, Druid, as hey can have a huge impact on the (Un)Monk. VMC Wizard (Air or Void Elementalist) meshes surprisingly well with the (Un)Monk and fills some holes in performance.

Class Dipping:
There are some rather good options once you have hit (Un)Monk 11 and Flurry ceases to gain bonus attacks.

Tengu - Rogue (Swordmaster) 3: Activate a second Style, disregard prereqs.
Fighter (Varisian Free-Style Fighter) 3: Martial Flexibility and having two Styles active.

Overall:
Nice writing, very nice selection of pics for the entire guide.
Personally, I do not like split documents as I like to use the search function/internal hyperlinks to navigate one document for ease of use.

[Talieth]

Race section : I don't think that tielfing have access to "scion of humanity".

[Ninjaxenomorph]

They do have access to a similar ability, Pass for Human, though.

[Psyren]

Gah, you beat me to it! I'll be reading this with interest.

Personally, I do not like split documents as I like to use the search function/internal hyperlinks to navigate one document for ease of use.

Very much agreed on this. Use one document and have internal links for hopping around.

[Secret Wizard]

I ADDED A FULL TEXT VERSION. CHECK IT OUT AS THE CONDENSED VERSION.

Hope that helps you guys!

Just writing down some thought while I read your guide.

Class Analysis:
I think you overdo/overrate the Barkskin Qinggong power. Nice spell to have, but not that important.

I could not disagree more and harder.

Barkskin is amazing. Costs 1 ki, lasts for ages... and frees up the slot that an Amulet of Natural Armor would take, allowing for an Amulet of Mighty Fists. It's the best investment for the slot.

If you have someone else casting it on you, good. Otherwise, it's great to have.

Race Selection:
You can actually achieve Dex2DMG with an (Un)Monk. Now there´s a funny thing with the "small" races and the "Reduce Person" spell, as you can shrink to tiny for even more to-hit, higher AC and trading damage dice size for more solid static damage boni.

Missing: Tengu and advanced options, especially class dipping. Swordmaster is one of the only few ways right now to have more than one Style feat up (Trance class feature).

1. DEX builds for the Unchained Monk suck. They are always 1 step behind. Reduction effects are terrible, because they drastically punish your unarmed damage dice, you are punishing your CMD massively, and, here's the worst part, you stop threatening. No flanking, no attacks of opportunity, no positional control.
There's also the fact that the best damage options out there are Dragon and Jabbing, and both require STR.
I have yet to see a build that makes it worth it.

2. Tengu's not there simply because I don't deal with dipping or multiclass in the guide yet. It took me ages to finish that section in the Brawler guide and I'm not sure if it's worth it - because the UnMonk grows progressively powerful with levels.

Features:
Again, overemphasis on Barkskin.

This just says to me I haven't emphasized it enough :P

Feats:
Should notice that Hamatulatsu let´s you shift damage type of IUS from B to P and works well with Fencing Grace. The crit rider is a nice addition, too.

Hammer the Gap: Scaling damage bonus based on number of attacks.

Missing Nightmare Fist feat chain for Drow, Hobgoblin, Tieflings and Void-Kineticist dips.

Not sure Hobbos can cast Darkness. But I added Hamatulatsu because extra damage types is good.

Fencing Grace only works with rapiers. Even if it worked with unarmed strikes, I still see no point of DEX builds.

Equipment:
Hands: Deliquescent Gloves. Corrosive enhancement on all attacks.

Missing: Sword Saint katana. Your end-game high crit flurry weapon. Especially on a Tengu.

Body: Hamatulatsu Robe is a good alternative to a Monk´s Robe and upgrades/works with the mentioned Hamatulatsu feat.

Considerations and Alternatives:
Overlap with Class Analysis section. Strengths/Limitations repeat and could be folded into one section.

Added Deliquescent. I meant to add the Katana, I'll put it in.


The STR/LIMITS is for people who read it and are excited but haven't been able to find what they were looking for.

[Florian]

@Secret Wizard:

Don´t get me wrong on the whole "Barkskin" thing. I consider it natural that there are roles and every class has to fulfill its intended role. That´s why I don´t consider it a major boon when a class manages to get a "buff" itself that other could do it for them. That is not akin to the whole "overcharging" some classes can do with their equipment (Magus, Paladin, Occultist), that´s why I´m not overly impressed with that option.

[Secret Wizard]

Well, it's an opportunity cost thing. It costs the Druid a level 2 spell to buff you. A level 2 spell that could be a utility spell to wreck enemies. You losing your 4th level ki power is not that game changing.

I'd make a note that it's less important if you can get buffed.

[Psyren]

1. DEX builds for the Unchained Monk suck. They are always 1 step behind. Reduction effects are terrible, because they drastically punish your unarmed damage dice, you are punishing your CMD massively, and, here's the worst part, you stop threatening. No flanking, no attacks of opportunity, no positional control.
There's also the fact that the best damage options out there are Dragon and Jabbing, and both require STR.
I have yet to see a build that makes it worth it.

I agree with you on size reduction not being worth it but I disagree on everything else. For starters, only Jabbing Master needs (13) Strength, and by the time that rolls around you should be able to get +4 added to your belt, or just skip that feat entirely. For two, you're forgetting several strong damage options for a Dex monk - the Monk of the Mantis archetype for sneak attack, or the Agile property on your weapon/amulet, even Dervish Dance if you get Scimitar as a monk weapon via Crusader's Flurry (which incidentally also gets you a juicy 15-20 crit range - perfect for flurry.) Dex-based monks can also afford more Wisdom, which means more ki, which means more uses of things like Cold Ice Strike (+15d6 extra damage as a swift action.)

Also, in the weapons section - don't forget uMonks are proficient with Blade of the Sword Saint from Ultimate Equipment, for another easy 15-20 crit range flurry weapon.

[Secret Wizard]

I have yet to see a DEX build with no cheese or false interpretations that could give a STR build a run for its money.

[Psyren]

I have yet to see a DEX build with no cheese or false interpretations that could give a STR build a run for its money.

A run for its money at what? Straight up DPR? Survivability? Scouting and infiltration? Solving mysteries? Solo, 2-man, or 5-man play?

That's the problem with blanket statements like "Dex builds suck." This game isn't that simple.

[Secret Wizard]

I think that something I broadly documented in the guide is not a blanket statement.

In 20 point buy, I don't think the Dexterity build has a noticeable edge in anything without falling behind in other aspects harshly.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

I will say that the dwarf FCB isn't as useless as it appears. I played with a dwarf monk in PFS (notable because the GM can't tailor the scenario to the players) and he used that ability (possibly with something else, not sure on his build) to basically bash his way through walls and doors we couldn't otherwise pass. At 10th level you could easily bash your way through an adamantine door, given time.

[Sayt]

I just recalled: Ascetic Style/Form+Vicious Stomp+Fortuitous+Leg Sweep.

Flurry, get a free trip, make three AoOs (one at a -5). You can do this more or less every round.

Also, some GMs are going to allow you to take Ability Focus (Stunning Fist), which I think is at least worth inquiring after.

[Secret Wizard]

Considering Stunning Fist Adept is a feat, I'm guessing Ability Focus isn't valid.

The trip thing is nice, but the Maneuver is limited by low CMB and applicability issues.

I guess the Dwarven FCB ain't that bad.

[Extra Anchovies]

You can actually achieve Dex2DMG with an (Un)Monk.

Care to explain how?

[Sayt]

Considering Stunning Fist Adept is a feat, I'm guessing Ability Focus isn't valid.

The trip thing is nice, but the Maneuver is limited by low CMB and applicability issues.

I guess the Dwarven FCB ain't that bad.

Stunning fist Adept was one of the most disappointing feats I've found in Pathfinder, and IIRC the common consensus is that Ability Focus (Stunning Fist) is a valid choice, as far as I'm aware, providing the GM allows you to take monster feats that you qualify for.

Also, You can Spec to tripping with some judicious magic item selection: A Leveraging weapon, a Thorny Brown Ioun Stone and Gauntlets of the Skilled Maneuver gives you a 6-12 bonus to trip, depending on your weapons enhancement, on top of full-bab and your ability mod to hit, with a +4 from stunning fist, if it goes through.

[Florian]

Care to explain how?

Chose a style that allows you to switch damage type, like Boar Style, the apply Slashing Grace as normal.

[Larsen]

Chose a style that allows you to switch damage type, like Boar Style, the apply Slashing Grace as normal.

Slashing grace doesn't work with flurry, so I'm not sure it's really good.

[Florian]

Slashing grace doesn't work with flurry, so I'm not sure it's really good.

I´ve my copy of ACG in hand right now and don´t see anything on this. Have I missed some errata there?

[Extra Anchovies]

Chose a style that allows you to switch damage type, like Boar Style, the apply Slashing Grace as normal.

Eh. You may be using Boar Style to deal slashing damage with unarmed strikes, but the unarmed strike in general is a bludgeoning weapon, and thus not a valid slashing grace target. You'd have to use a monk weapon for Slashing Grace, which blocks out a number of unarmed-only options (like Boar Style). Also, the feat explicitly doesn't function during a flurry of blows, which is bad news bears for a monk. The lower base damage, narrower range of options, and inability to flurry would in most cases cut damage more than getting Dex on each hit would increase it.

I´ve my copy of ACG in hand right now and don´t see anything on this. Have I missed some errata there?

Yeah, the ACG errata shut down Slashing Grace for anything that occupies both hands - TWF, FoB, holding a wand, casting a spell, using a shield other than a buckler, etc. Kind of annoying but c'est la Paizo. Here's an up-to-date version of the feat's text.

[Florian]

Yeah, the ACG errata shut down Slashing Grace for anything that occupies both hands - TWF, FoB, holding a wand, casting a spell, using a shield other than a buckler, etc. Kind of annoying but c'est la Paizo. Here's an up-to-date version of the feat's text.

For compatibility sake, I´ve got to stick to the same updates/errata our localized version of PF uses. So roughly speaking, that means lagging some good 12 months behind. That update is not official in our version so far, therefore I did´ know it.

Eh. You may be using Boar Style to deal slashing damage with unarmed strikes, but the unarmed strike in general is a bludgeoning weapon, and thus not a valid slashing grace target. You'd have to use a monk weapon for Slashing Grace, which blocks out a number of unarmed-only options (like Boar Style). Also, the feat explicitly doesn't function during a flurry of blows, which is bad news bears for a monk. The lower base damage, narrower range of options, and inability to flurry would in most cases cut damage more than getting Dex on each hit would increase it.

Technically speaking, you just have to fulfill the prerequisites the moment you chose the feat. As is usual, the moment you no longer meet the prerequisites, the feat chain ceases to function until all conditions are cleared up again.
But yeah, with that errata, it´s a mood point then.

2. Tengu's not there simply because I don't deal with dipping or multiclass in the guide yet. It took me ages to finish that section in the Brawler guide and I'm not sure if it's worth it - because the UnMonk grows progressively powerful with levels.

Generally speaking, I´d agree with you there. It´s a shore to go over all possible combinations.

What I find noteworthy, tho, are the real game-changers that work hard on how a class is handled.
The most well-known example of this would be the "Lifelink"-Paladin, either Oracle dip or VMC Oracle, as this showcases how dramatic the shift can be.

I think it is interesting to identify and name those game-changers and put them up as build options.

[Psyren]

For compatibility sake, I´ve got to stick to the same updates/errata our localized version of PF uses. So roughly speaking, that means lagging some good 12 months behind. That update is not official in our version so far, therefore I did´ know it.

As an FYI, all the errata is available online.

In 20 point buy, I don't think the Dexterity build has a noticeable edge in anything without falling behind in other aspects harshly.

Wait, what? I can make viable Dex builds in 15 Point Buy, never mind 20.

Str 10, DEX 16, Con 12, Int 12, Wis 14, Cha 7
Str 10, DEX 15, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 14, Cha 7
Str 10, DEX 17, Con 10, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 7

With 20 I can do even better:

Str 10, DEX 16, Con 12, Int 12, Wis 16, Cha 7
Str 10, DEX 15, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 16, Cha 7
Str 10, DEX 17, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 7

Considering Stunning Fist Adept is a feat, I'm guessing Ability Focus isn't valid.

On what grounds? "There's a better feat, so they must have meant for you to take the crappy one that doesn't stack with Mantis Style?"

Yeah, my hat goes off to you for the hard work you put in, but I think I'll be making my own guide after all.

[Secret Wizard]

Come at me scrublord I'm ripped

[Secret Wizard]

Again all the builds you posted only have one more CON bonus or one more INT bonus or both, and give up major damage potential and feats to get where you want.

Post a build with the same standards as the sample builds in my guide and we'll talk

[Florian]

@Secred Wizard:

Not a good attitude. The more you manage to turn MAD into SAD, the better, especially on lower PB values.

@Psyren:

It´s a bit more complicated and we can go deeper into this if you want. The way licensing works also alters the way what is to be considered "official" and what affects PFS on a local level. For example, you won´t find any "First printings" at all in localized areas, therefore a heap of updates/errata is not applicable at all and "we" will "meet" back again around full second printings.

[Secret Wizard]

SAD is only better than MAD if it's better a build.

You'd never see me make a DEX Fighter because they are objectively worse than STR Fighters by any build metric.

I'd still make a DEX Swashbuckler and recognise the use of DEX Magus and Mesmerist. Hell, I'll even say vanilla monk is better as SAD DEX.

But UnMonk? SAD is bad unless I see a build prove otherwise, made in the style of the ones I have in the guide.

As I said, 20 point buy makes MAD viable except in corner cases.

People need to get over baseless SAD fetishism. Builds talk, bull**** walks.

[Psyren]

Come at me scrublord I'm ripped

Oh wow

Again all the builds you posted only have one more CON bonus or one more INT bonus or both, and give up major damage potential and feats to get where you want.

Post a build with the same standards as the sample builds in my guide and we'll talk

If you're getting Dex to damage (via several methods), how is having high Dex "giving up damage?" Wouldn't it be the opposite?

If instead you mean Power Attack, Piranha Strike is a thing. Plus you get higher (touch) AC, initiative, reflex, stealth etc.

You'd never see me make a DEX Fighter because they are objectively worse than STR Fighters by any build metric.

Even if this were true (it's not), Fighters aren't Monks - they can wear armor and shields to survive at low levels, and thus afford to focus on Strength without getting skewered by lizardfolk javelins etc. A monk doesn't have that option, instead they have to be good at dodging. Furthermore, point buy math makes having a decent Wis and Dex at creation more affordable than investing in Wis alone - 14 Wis + 14 Dex costs 10 points, but 10 Dex and 18 Wis costs 17 points despite providing the exact same amount of AC. Since you're investing in Dex to survive anyway, focusing on it instead doesn't cost you much extra.

I'm not saying Strength-based Monks are bad - you can build powerful ones there too. But Dex and even Wis-based are not just viable, but can be built very well also.

[Florian]

SAD is only better than MAD if it's better a build.

Don´t see this as a point against you, see it as a addendum. Turning a class SAD can lead to two things: Overspecialization or broadening of the base class features. The former is all too common in TO discussion, while the later simply can happen and is generally overlooked as an option. That would be, for example, be the case when you free enough PB points to give your Fighter or (Un)Monk a decent INT score to have a good skill base.

People need to get over baseless SAD fetishism. Builds talk, bull**** walks.

Generally agreed upon. Action talk louder than words. But that one is up to you, the creator of the guide. Shall we post some builds and discuss whole builds _here_ so that the outcome can influence the guide? That would be very illuminating but a rather painful process for all involved. Up to you. I´d actually love to provide some builds.

[Secret Wizard]

That is the whole point of this thread! I am literally asking you for builds that will prove to me that giving up STR, and thus Jabbing, Ascetic and Dragon Styles, is good enough a strategy to merit inclusion.

Personally, I could only see it for a Pummeling Charge or Boar Style build, and, in both cases, it would mean giving up damage for too many levels if gotten through agile and otherwise giving up level progression if gotten from Rogue. The benefits, in my view, wouldn't outweigh a STR14/DEX18 Finesse Jabbing build.