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  1. - Top - End - #1
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    PaladinGuy

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    Default Lawful - What ARE the laws?

    Pretty much like the title says.

    In order for one to be lawful there has to be laws to follow. But I've never yet seen the law actually spelled out within the D&D world(s).

    So, what are the laws?
    Last edited by Oramac; 2016-10-01 at 02:34 PM.

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    Default Re: Lawful - What [i]ARE[/i] the laws?

    Quote Originally Posted by Oramac View Post
    Pretty much like the title says.

    In order for one to be lawful there has to be laws to follow. But I've never yet seen the law actually spelled out within the D&D world(s).

    So, what are the laws?
    The short answer is: no one really knows.

    To elaborate: the writing, even looking only at the official materials released by Wizards of the Coast, is wildly inconsistent and contradictory. Heck, to paraphrase something I read a long time ago, even in a single book (specifically, the 3.5 Player's Handbook) the same thing is described as being Lawful and not-Lawful in two different places. The sample Monk character is described as being intensely devoted to her martial arts forms, which is highlighted as a Lawful trait. The sample Wizard, on the other hand, is described as being intensely devoted to her arcane arts, which is highlighted as specifically non-Lawful.

    So, the laws referred to by Lawful are whatever a particular player and their DM agree they are. Everything else is just varying opinions on what that agreement should look like.

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    SamuraiGuy

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    Default Re: Lawful - What [i]ARE[/i] the laws?

    I have always seen the Lawful alignments as someone who wants to preserve order. whether good, neutral or evil they have a need to preserve societies rules (even if they bend them to their own ends).

    The actual "laws" themselves might vary from culture to culture within a campaign. a lawful samurai from an Asian themed culture and a lawful knight from a western culture might have very different ideas of right and wrong, despite occupying essentially the same role in their cultures. but both would likely be dedicated to the idea of preserving order in their society.

    i'm not saying my view is right or wrong, just that's my take on it.

    And that's part of the problem, beyond certain very basic absolutes, ethics and ideas of right and wrong get very subjective based on personal bias, cultural beliefs and many other variables.

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    Default Re: Lawful - What ARE the laws?

    Might be more at home in the Roleplaying forum. I come here to get away from alignment discussions.

    Unless you want to discuss how ridiculous alignment is and how it's great 5e basically did away with it.

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    Default Re: Lawful - What ARE the laws?

    Quote Originally Posted by Oramac View Post
    In order for one to be lawful there has to be laws to follow.
    That is not actually true. The Lawful alignments are not based on following laws, they're based a person being generally the orderly sort - as just one small example, someone of a Lawful alignment would be more likely to stick to their word than deceive others, or on the more evil side of things more likely to twist the exact meaning of their words to their own advantage rather than lie outright. They're more likely to value concepts like honor or respect for/deference to those in authority, and less likely to value concepts like freedom or individualism. Those kind of personality traits are not tied specifically to any laws.

    In practice, there is a good chance that a Lawful character will be inclined to uphold the laws of their homeland when they're in it, and to respect laws of other lands, but there can certainly be exceptions to that. A Lawful Good Paladin is not especially likely to want to follow laws that blatantly oppress the populace in a country ruled by an evil tyrant, for example, they're likely to want to overthrow him and get those laws thrown out for ones that are actually fair and just.

    That said, the alignment system obviously has its flaws, and one of the more basic is that the name of the Lawful alignments does give the misconception that they're about following laws, when that's not really the case.
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    Default Re: Lawful - What ARE the laws?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zevox View Post
    That said, the alignment system obviously has its flaws, and one of the more basic is that the name of the Lawful alignments does give the misconception that they're about following laws, when that's not really the case.
    Especially in 5e, where LN and LE are quite clear you might be following the rules of something that isn't the law. Otoh it still fairly strongly implies that you adhere to those rules.

    The way I read it is 5e Lawful characters typically adhere to their rules (as appropriate to their alignment behavior description) even when they'd prefer not to. The other alignments don't apply those constraints on themselves, or at least not as consistently.

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    Default Re: Lawful - What ARE the laws?

    The laws are more of your own moral code.

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    Default Re: Lawful - What ARE the laws?

    Quote Originally Posted by Quintessence View Post
    The laws are more of your own moral code.
    This, definitely.
    I play a Warlock with the Charlatan bg whose patron is Andromalius, 'The Repentant Rogue'. Andromalius swore off his stealing, roguish ways, and so he cannot abide theft in his followers. Despite being a Charlatan, my character has a moral code; he cannot take anything from anyone if it would be considered unlawful. If he can swindle them into giving him their stuff willingly, then it's fair-game. Breaking other laws? Fair game. He just can't steal. Because he has a moral code which he cannot break, he's considered a Lawful character.

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    Default Re: Lawful - What ARE the laws?

    A good way to get an idea for what kinds of things might lead to a Lawfully Aligned character, besides the behavior descriptions, is to take a look at which suggested PHB Ideals are tagged (Lawful).

    Ideals key words include: Tradition, Faith, Fairness, Honor (including among thieves), Community, Logic, and Responsibility.

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    Default Re: Lawful - What ARE the laws?

    *sigh*

    This again.

    In the novel Three Hearts and Three Lions by Poul Anderson,

    which was published before and inspired Moorcock's "Law vs. Chaos" conflict, it was only sometimes "Law", and usually it was indeed "Order" vs. "Chaos", and Anderson expressly conflated Holger's struggle against Morgan le Fay and the "Host of Faerie" with the battle against the Nazis in our world.

    To learn what is ment by "chaotic/good", "lawful/evil" etc. ask the DM of that particular table, it means what the DM says it means

    If you want you can also read the article which first had the term.

    I first read a copy of it in the 1980 "Best of The Dragon" which is next to me. It reprinted the original article in the;
    Strategic Review: February 1976


    THE MEANING OF LAW AND CHAOS IN DUNGEONS & DRAGONS AND THEIR RELATIONSHIPS TO GOOD AND EVIL

    by Gary Gygax

    FEBRUARY 1976

    Many questions continue to arise regarding what constitutes a “lawful” act, what sort of behavior is “chaotic”, what constituted an “evil” deed, and how certain behavior is “good”. There is considerable confusion in that most dungeonmasters construe the terms “chaotic” and “evil” to mean the same thing, just as they define “lawful” and “good” to mean the same. This is scarcely surprising considering the wording of the three original volumes of DUNGEONS & DRAGONS. When that was written they meant just about the same thing in my mind — notice I do not say they were synonymous in my thinking at, that time. The wording in the GREYHAWK supplement added a bit more confusion, for by the time that booklet was written some substantial differences had been determined. In fact, had I the opportunity to do D&D over I would have made the whole business very much clearer by differentiating the four categories, and many chaotic creatures would be good, while many lawful creatures would be evil. Before going into the definitions of these four terms, a graphic representation of their relative positions will help the reader to follow the further discourse. (Illustration I)

    Notice first that the area of neutrality lies squarely athwart the intersection of the lines which divide the four behavioral distinctions, and it is a very small area when compared with the rest of the graph. This refers to true neutrality, not to neutrality regarding certain interactions at specific times, i.e., a war which will tend to weaken a stronger player or game element regardless of the “neutral” party’s actions can hardly be used as a measure of neutrality if it will benefit the party’s interest to have the weakening come about.

    Also note that movement upon this graph is quite possible with regard to campaign participants, and the dungeonmaster should, in fact, make this a standard consideration in play. This will be discussed hereafter.

    Now consider the term “Law” as opposed to “Chaos”. While they are nothing if not opposites, they are neither good nor evil in their definitions. A highly regimented society is typically governed by strict law, i.e., a dictatorship, while societies which allow more individual freedom tend to be more chaotic. The following lists of words describing the two terms point this out. I have listed the words describing the concepts in increasing order of magnitude (more or less) as far as the comparison with the meanings of the two terms in D&D is concerned:

    Basically, then, “Law” is strict order and “Chaos” is complete anarchy, but of course they grade towards each other along the scale from left to right on the graph. Now consider the terms “Good” and “Evil” expressed in the same manner:

    The terms “Law” and “Evil” are by no means mutually exclusive. There is no reason that there cannot be prescribed and strictly enforced rules which are unpleasant, injurious or even corrupt. Likewise “Chaos” and “Good” do not form a dichotomy. Chaos can be harmless, friendly, honest, sincere, beneficial, or pure, for that matter. This all indicates that there are actually five, rather than three, alignments, namely

    The lawful/good classification is typified by the paladin, the chaotic/good alignment is typified by elves, lawful/evil is typified by the vampire, and the demon is the epitome of chaotic/evil. Elementals are neutral. The general reclassification various creatures is shown on Illustration II.

    Placement of characters upon a graph similar to that in Illustration I is necessary if the dungeonmaster is to maintain a record of player-character alignment. Initially, each character should be placed squarely on the center point of his alignment, i.e., lawful/good, lawful/evil, etc. The actions of each game week will then be taken into account when determining the current position of each character. Adjustment is perforce often subjective, but as a guide the referee can consider the actions of a given player in light of those characteristics which typify his alignment, and opposed actions can further be weighed with regard to intensity. For example, reliability does not reflect as intense a lawfulness as does principled, as does righteous. Unruly does not indicate as chaotic a state as does disordered, as does lawless. Similarly, harmless, friendly, and beneficial all reflect increasing degrees of good; while unpleasant, injurious, and wicked convey progressively greater evil. Alignment does not preclude actions which typify a different alignment, but such actions will necessarily affect the position of the character performing them, and the class or the alignment of the character in question can change due to such actions, unless counter-deeds are performed to balance things. The player-character who continually follows any alignment (save neutrality) to the absolute letter of its definition must eventually move off the chart (Illustration I) and into another plane of existence as indicated. Note that selfseeking is neither lawful nor chaotic, good nor evil, except in relation to other sapient creatures. Also, law and chaos are not subject to interpretation in their ultimate meanings of order and disorder respectively, but good and evil are not absolutes but must be judged from a frame of reference, some ethos. The placement of creatures on the chart of Illustration II. reflects the ethos of this writer to some extent.

    Considering mythical and mythos gods in light of this system, most of the benign ones will tend towards the chaotic/good, and chaotic/evil will typify those gods which were inimical towards humanity. Some few would be completely chaotic, having no predisposition towards either good or evil — REH’s Crom perhaps falls into this category. What then about interaction between different alignments? This question is tricky and must be given careful consideration. Diametric opposition exists between lawful/good and chaotic/evil and between chaotic/good and lawful/evil in this ethos. Both good and evil can serve lawful ends, and conversely they may both serve chaotic ends. If we presuppose that the universal contest is between law and chaos we must assume that in any final struggle the minions of each division would be represented by both good and evil beings. This may seem strange at first, but if the major premise is accepted it is quite rational. Barring such a showdown, however, it is far more plausible that those creatures predisposed to good actions will tend to ally themselves against any threat of evil, while creatures of evil will likewise make (uneasy) alliance in order to gain some mutually beneficial end — whether at the actual expense of the enemy or simply to prevent extinction by the enemy. Evil creatures can be bound to service by masters predisposed towards good actions, but a lawful/good character would fain make use of some chaotic/evil creature without severely affecting his lawful (not necessarily good) standing.

    This brings us to the subject of those character roles which are not subject to as much latitude of action as the others. The neutral alignment is self-explanatory, and the area of true neutrality is shown on Illustration I. Note that paladins, Patriarchs, and Evil High Priests, however, have positive boundaries. The area in which a paladin may move without loss of his status is shown in Illustration III. Should he cause his character to move from this area he must immediately seek a divine quest upon which to set forth in order to gain his status once again, or be granted divine intervention; in those cases where this is not complied with the status is forever lost. Clerics of either good or evil predisposition must likewise remain completely good or totally evil, although lateral movement might be allowed by the dungeonmaster, with or without divine retribution. Those top-level clerics who fail to maintain their goodness or evilness must make some form of immediate atonement. If they fail to do so they simply drop back to seventh level. The atonement, as well as how immediate it must be, is subject to interpretation by the referee. Druids serve only themselves and nature, they occasionally make human sacrifice, but on the other hand they aid the folk in agriculture and animal husbandry. Druids are, therefore, neutral — although slightly predisposed towards evil actions.

    As a final note, most of humanity falls into the lawful category, and most of lawful humanity lies near the line between good and evil. With proper leadership the majority will be prone towards lawful/good. Few humans are chaotic, and very few are chaotic and evil.
    Three graphs on alignment

    Made simple-


    From Pratchett's Discworld-


    And from
    THE MEANING OF LAW AND CHAOS IN DUNGEONS & DRAGONS
    AND THEIR RELATIONSHIPS TO GOOD AND EVIL
    by Gary Gygax

    In the February 1976 issue of The Strategic Review



    Hope they help!

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    Default Re: Lawful - What ARE the laws?

    Holy crap 2d8HP! That's a hell of a novel you wrote. Thanks!

    To shed some light on why I ask (I should have written this in the op): I'm thinking about The Punisher (Thomas Jane version) with reference to a vengeance paladin. The Punisher only kills the "bad guys" (the Saint family), but he does so with extreme prejudice and without remorse.

    In any case, there's more than enough here for me to make it work. Thank you all!
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    Default Re: Lawful - What ARE the laws?

    Right.
    In our previous campaign, one of the other players played his LN Cleric more as a traffic warden than as a living instrument of his god. The very fabric of Material Prime might be at stake -- but he'd refuse to be part of a plan that would involve ambushing the villain or even secretly nicking a 5GP trinket from him. When I sarcastically asked him if he'd prefer to mail the villain a court summons to turn himself in within 14 days, he totally unironically replied in the affirmative.
    Believe you me, _that_ was incredibly tiresome.
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    Default Re: Lawful - What ARE the laws?

    With regards to the Discworld poster, I am surprised that it places Nobbs as Neutral Evil. He struck me more as a Darker shade of Chaotic Neutral personally. But I guess that's the problem with assigning alignments. Sometimes there is disagreements.

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    Default Re: Lawful - What ARE the laws?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mith View Post
    With regards to the Discworld poster, I am surprised that it places Nobbs as Neutral Evil. He struck me more as a Darker shade of Chaotic Neutral personally. But I guess that's the problem with assigning alignments. Sometimes there is disagreements.
    "Neutral evil (NE) is the alignment of those who do whatever they can get away with, without compassion or qualms."

    Sounds about right for Nobby
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    Default Re: Lawful - What ARE the laws?

    Nobby does have a certain level of compassion, and even integrity - "You could trust him with your life - though you'd be mad to trust him with half a dollar".


    Gygax's "Most of humanity is Lawful" is a bit out of date - modern D&D tends to portray the average human being as Neutral, not LN.
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    Default Re: Lawful - What ARE the laws?

    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    Gygax's "Most of humanity is Lawful" is a bit out of date - modern D&D tends to portray the average human being as Neutral, not LN.
    Seeing how crazy the modern society has become it could just as well put the average human within NE, CE, and CN spectrum, with only a minority still striving to do good, to no avail.
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    Default Re: Lawful - What ARE the laws?

    Quote Originally Posted by Arkhios View Post
    Seeing how crazy the modern society has become it could just as well put the average human within NE, CE, and CN spectrum, with only a minority still striving to do good, to no avail.
    I'd argue that's a bit of the golden age fallacy going on. Id buy "humanity is collectively generally lawful", for various historical reasons. Human social organization is pretty complex, but usually has deference to tradition or authority in some form

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    Default Re: Lawful - What ARE the laws?

    Even in 3rd ed/3.5 ed, various sources suggest a bias toward Lawful at the leadership level - with more Community Power Centres being Lawful than Chaotic.

    It's at the individual level, that the bias is less, or near-invisible. Probably too low to qualify as "Often Lawful" if humans were to get their own statblock in an MM.
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    Default Re: Lawful - What ARE the laws?

    Just because someone is Chaotic, I don't think he doesn't have any moral codes. Perhaps he does have a moral code of his own, but he just doesn't care for the rules of the society, especially the ones that aren't inherently evil to break.

    For instance, killing people is not something that can be measured on the "Lawful V.S. Chaotic" scale, it's something to be measured on the "Good V.S. Evil" scale.

    Skipping school once in a while, doodling during tests, pulling off not-so-harmful pranks are probably points where "Lawful V.S. Chaotic" can be measured. They aren't necessarily evil actions, but you can tell they don't care for strict rules.
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    Default Re: Lawful - What ARE the laws?

    The way I see it lawful means you respect the rule of whatever cult/brotherhood/society or whatever your a member of.

    Fx if your lawful good and a part of the harper organisation, it means your good in such a way that you think following the rules - made by this benevolent organisation - is the best way to be good.

    If your a member of an evil cult, you respect the rules and traditions of that cult and as evil as you may be, you wouldn't be prone to breaking those rules under normal circumstances.
    Last edited by Gwiz; 2016-10-02 at 08:19 AM.

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    Default Re: Lawful - What ARE the laws?

    I treat it as lawful meaning having codes or principles that you live in accordance with. A chaotic person is much more the-end-justifies-the-means. A choatic good person respects life like the lawful good person does, but he is more likely to think in practical terms like "If I kill these murderous gnolls, they won't be able to kill others. The innocent and life on the whole will be served."

    My lawful evil Zhentarim characters respect the code of the Zhentarim. If they are under contract to do something, they feel they should honor the contract. It reflects on the reputation of the Zhent and serves him in the long run. He also would never betray a fellow Zhent. At the same time, he believes the strong should rule the weak and seeks to attain more power through status and titles.

    My lawful evil druid also follows Zhent code and has come to believe in survival of the fittest, a lesson learned from nature. He believes that this principle has been crucial to the order created in the world. He doesn't respect life in the same way as a good person. He sees the entire cycle of life and death and death is a natural part of that. If you're "weak", you should pass so your energy and nutrients can feed the strong which will lead to a greater order of things.
    Last edited by Dalebert; 2016-10-02 at 09:40 AM.
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    Default Re: Lawful - What ARE the laws?

    Well, here's the 3.5e Official Answer to the OP's question.
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