The LA-assignment thread

[Flickerdart]

I'm no great optimizer, but as a full caster of ECL 20, isn't telepathy a bit... dated?

Well, you can use shapechange to get the telepathy, but only for a limited period of time. A Formian Queen could use Mindsight to have 50 miles of perfect intelligence on sapient beings, 24/7.

[Troacctid]

Formian Queen is absolutely worth it. I'll play one over a Sorcerer 20 any day of the week and I'm not even sure it's close. Those are some very sweet perks.

[digiman619]

Extra text!

[The_Iron_Lord]

1.5x STR bonus and 2x Power Attack (assuming heavy mace).

But...It says "1 Hand" in the corner...THAT MAKES NO SENSE!!

[Zancloufer]

I'm really looking forward to discussing the Queen - 17th level Sorcerer casting is nothing to sneer at, even if it comes at the cost of 20 HD and losing all your movement and attacks. Do the extra goodies outweigh the advantages of a Sorcerer 20? I think they don't, unless you want to abuse 50 mile telepathy somehow, but we'll see.

Outsider HD are ALOT better than Sorcerer chassis: Double the BaB and HP, 3 good saves vs 1, 6 more skill points. The inability to move kinda sucks, but Poloymorph spells on an outsider are fairly flexible. Outsiders are one of the few types you can't shapechange into by default without already being one so . . .

Also them At-will SLAs: Divination and True-Seeing are very useful and the Lawful version of At-will Holy Word is broken if you can get a few +CL boosts. There are some other good ones, but much more situational (Hold/Charm Monster at will is a SoL, Protection from Chaos/Sheild of Law at will is pretty much Mind-Blank on steroids).

[danielxcutter]

Outsider HD are ALOT better than Sorcerer chassis: Double the BaB and HP, 3 good saves vs 1, 6 more skill points. The inability to move kinda sucks, but Poloymorph spells on an outsider are fairly flexible. Outsiders are one of the few types you can't shapechange into by default without already being one so . . .

Also them At-will SLAs: Divination and True-Seeing are very useful and the Lawful version of At-will Holy Word is broken if you can get a few +CL boosts. There are some other good ones, but much more situational (Hold/Charm Monster at will is a SoL, Protection from Chaos/Sheild of Law at will is pretty much Mind-Blank on steroids).

Is the "Lawful version of Holy Word" you're talking about called Dictum?

[No brains]

I thought the outsider type was sometimes considered a bad thing because it makes the player vulnerable to a number of silly effects. I remember someone griping about the monk capstone. I would guess that full casting does some things to counter that though.

[danielxcutter]

I thought the outsider type was sometimes considered a bad thing because it makes the player vulnerable to a number of silly effects. I remember someone griping about the monk capstone. I would guess that full casting does some things to counter that though.

Just the opposite; not only does it grant immunity to Charm, Hold, and Dominate Person, it enables you to Polymorph into something like a Solar.

[Troacctid]

Outsider typing is a huge advantage when you're dealing with racial hit dice. Outsider hit dice are better than some PC classes.

[danielxcutter]

Outsider typing is a huge advantage when you're dealing with racial hit dice. Outsider hit dice are better than some PC classes.

Like Monk, or Soulknife. Not sure about Fighter though.

[MesiDoomstalker]

I thought the outsider type was sometimes considered a bad thing because it makes the player vulnerable to a number of silly effects. I remember someone griping about the monk capstone. I would guess that full casting does some things to counter that though.

Outsider typing at Monk 20 sucks because it gives all the penalties, with basically none of the benefits. You don't get any of the good HD worth (admittedly, your most the way there already), you don't have innate Polymorph abilities so you can't abuse that trick. Your immune to a slew of spells which haven't been terribly relevant for almost 10 levels, but your also immune to spells that bring you back to life. Also, immune to Enlarge Person, which on a melee character, stinks.

It's more a matter of planning. At level 20, your suddenly a different type, which changes how you interact with a lot of things you have utilized for 20 levels. If you start as an Outsider, you already been interacting with things exactly the same as you've been doing for your entire career.

[Inevitability]

To those discussing formian queen, keep in mind that sorcerers don't get 9th-level spells until their 18th level. In other words, the queen lacks them.

Just something that may affect balance.

Is the "Lawful version of Holy Word" you're talking about called Dictum?

It is.

[Troacctid]

Here's the thing, a Formian Queen isn't just a sorcerer. She's more like a sorcerer gestalted with like three other classes. She has more BAB than an Eldritch Knight, better skills than an Arcane Trickster, and better SLAs than an Eldritch Theurge. Sure, she "only" starts with 8th level spells, but you know how many more levels she needs to take to get 9ths? One. One more level of sorcerer. And there you go, there's her shapechange. She's not perma-locked at 8ths; sorcerer levels do still stack with her racial spellcasting.

[javcs]

Here's the thing, a Formian Queen isn't just a sorcerer. She's more like a sorcerer gestalted with like three other classes. She has more BAB than an Eldritch Knight, better skills than an Arcane Trickster, and better SLAs than an Eldritch Theurge. Sure, she "only" starts with 8th level spells, but you know how many more levels she needs to take to get 9ths? One. One more level of sorcerer. And there you go, there's her shapechange. She's not perma-locked at 8ths; sorcerer levels do still stack with her racial spellcasting.

On the other hand, the Formian Queen doesn't have any attacks or ability to move without magic. She has a "-" for both Strength and Dexterity, which makes her probably the only creature like that (certainly the only one I can think of). She has a speed of 0ft. Her description says she "cannot move" and "has no ability to move" in addition to "the queen does not fight".

Those are pretty hefty downsides, even with all her advantages.
Actually, I think you'd be pretty much forced into employing polymorph type spells in order to get around. Or some other form of magical mobility. Or somehow acquiring a Fly speed that isn't dependent upon your base land speed, ideally a non-magical method, so you're not totally boned in an AMF or if you get hit with Dispel effects.

The Queen is a bit iffy, IMO. She's got some great advantages, but some pretty brutal disadvantages, even though they can be mitigated, that's still resources that have to be invested in mitigating those disadvantages, and probably some more kept in reserve for redundancy's sake.
She's got some really good strengths, and some really terrible weaknesses. Admittedly, her strengths can, at least to a degree, be used to compensate for her weaknesses.


Then, of course, there's the fact that she's got 20RHD - good RHD, sure, but she doesn't start to get 9th level spells until, at minimum, other full casters can have Epic Spellcasting. And she doesn't get Epic Spellcasting until her next feat after that.


Plus, useage of polymorph type spells might well be argued to cost you your racial spellcasting:
"You retain all supernatural and spell-like special attacks and qualities of your normal form, except for those requiring a body part that the new form does not have (such as a mouth for a breath weapon or eyes for a gaze attack). You keep all extraordinary special attacks and qualities derived from class levels, but you lose any from your normal form that are not derived from class levels."
-Excerpt from SRD entry for Alter Self.

Fortunately, there's a counterargument in the next paragraph:
"You retain any spellcasting ability you had in your original form, but the new form must be able to speak intelligibly (that is, speak a language) to use verbal components and must have limbs capable of fine manipulation to use somatic or material components."
-Excerpt from SRD entry for Alter Self.

The first excerpt clearly kills your racial spellcasting. The second is clearly intended to keep class-based spellcasting, and could easily be said to cover racial spellcasting as well, but it's best to consult your DM for their interpretation first, just in case.



Assuming that Racial Spellcasting is retained, she's pretty good. If it isn't, she's not as good but still good. You'd need to use some other means of mitigating your lack of mobility, but your inability to attack wouldn't be that much of a hardship (you're a high level full caster, essentially), and polymorph effects are still an option if you need to beat something's face in.

[Troacctid]

When you begin play with polymorph any object, being unable to move in your natural form isn't anywhere close to being a meaningful drawback. Cast it on yourself once, and you're good to go forever.

[Malimar]

On the other hand, the Formian Queen doesn't have any attacks or ability to move without magic. She has a "-" for both Strength and Dexterity, which makes her probably the only creature like that (certainly the only one I can think of). She has a speed of 0ft. Her description says she "cannot move" and "has no ability to move" in addition to "the queen does not fight".

Speaking of which, I look forward to the LA assignment for the shrieker fungus. I'm sure it'll be high.

[Troacctid]

I mean, I guess you lose your fast healing, spell resistance, and energy resistance when you're polymorphed, so shapeshifting isn't totally free. But it is at least very easy to do, and you have native access to it.

[Flickerdart]

When you begin play with polymorph any object, being unable to move in your natural form isn't anywhere close to being a meaningful drawback. Cast it on yourself once, and you're good to go forever.

That's cool. Which other spell do you want to learn? Having to burn one of your two 8th level spells known just so you can walk around isn't exactly amazing.

[JBarca]

That's cool. Which other spell do you want to learn? Having to burn one of your two 8th level spells known just so you can walk around isn't exactly amazing.

Taking what is widely considered to be one of the most powerful and versatile spells in the game as one of your 8ths isn't exactly "burning" a spell known. It hurts a little to be locked into a certain spell, but it's not as bad as all that, I'd argue.

[No brains]

Couldn't teleport, gaseous form, tenser's floating disk, and even summon monster be used to move the queen around?

Also is her speed - or 0ft? Because if it's 0ft, expedious retreat will still work. I also wonder if she can take advantage of the full round action to move 5 feet rule?

[Troacctid]

Taking what is widely considered to be one of the most powerful and versatile spells in the game as one of your 8ths isn't exactly "burning" a spell known. It hurts a little to be locked into a certain spell, but it's not as bad as all that, I'd argue.

Yeah, isn't it like the literal #1 most powerful 8th level spell in the game? If not, it must be in the top 3. 'S crazy broken.

Couldn't teleport, gaseous form, tenser's floating disk, and even summon monster be used to move the queen around?

Floating disk (or more likely greater floating disk) might be too small. Ditto for any mount smaller than huge (e.g. phantom steed—you probably wouldn't use summon monster because of the duration). Gaseous form prevents you from casting spells with verbal or somatic components, so that's out. Teleportation might work though. You could take the Dimensional Jaunt reserve feat to *bamf* as a standard action.

I think you would still want to get a Strength and Dexterity score though. Having nonabilities is very problematic. For example, while having no Dexterity score allows you to add Intelligence to initiative, it also means you fail Reflex saves automatically, which is definitely undesirable, to put it mildly. And having no Strength score means you can't manipulate objects, which can really hinder your ability to use magic items effectively. (Although is there like a Bigby spell or something that gives you an extra hand that can manipulate items for you? That might be a workaround.)

Also is her speed - or 0ft? Because if it's 0ft, expedious retreat will still work. I also wonder if she can take advantage of the full round action to move 5 feet rule?

It's not just 0 feet, she is flat-out unable to move due to lacking a Strength and Dexterity score.

[JBarca]

I think you would still want to get a Strength and Dexterity score though. Having nonabilities is very problematic. For example, while having no Dexterity score allows you to add Intelligence to initiative, it also means you fail Reflex saves automatically, which is definitely undesirable, to put it mildly. And having no Strength score means you can't manipulate objects, which can really hinder your ability to use magic items effectively. (Although is there like a Bigby spell or something that gives you an extra hand that can manipulate items for you? That might be a workaround.)

Unable to manipulate objects means you have a feat tax of Eschew Materials, right? And does "unable to move" mean travel moving (effectively 0 speed) or moving moving (roughly paralyzed)? The former is annoying, the latter is utterly crippling. If you can't move, you can't cast spells without Still Spell (more feat taxes).

This 17 level casting is sounding less and less appealing.

[Troacctid]

Unable to manipulate objects means you have a feat tax of Eschew Materials, right?

Yes and no. You do need it, but it's also a racial bonus feat, so it's not a feat tax.

And does "unable to move" mean travel moving (effectively 0 speed) or moving moving (roughly paralyzed)? The former is annoying, the latter is utterly crippling. If you can't move, you can't cast spells without Still Spell (more feat taxes).

"A creature with no Dexterity score can’t move. If it can perform actions (such as casting spells), it applies its Intelligence modifier to initiative checks instead of a Dexterity modifier."

It's heavily implied that you can still cast spells. Which is lucky, since NPC Formian Queens might have trouble living up to their challenge rating otherwise.

[javcs]

I mean, I guess you lose your fast healing, spell resistance, and energy resistance when you're polymorphed, so shapeshifting isn't totally free. But it is at least very easy to do, and you have native access to it.

I believe you also loose your immunities - poison (meh), cold (not bad), petrification (not bad - petrification, while not super common, is essentially a SoD effect). And you loose Hive Mind, although that's probably a non-issue unless there are more Formians in the group.
And, to be fair, Fast Healing 2 isn't really going to be useful in combat very often.

While Polymorph Any Object (or any other polymorph type spell) is a relatively straightforward means of getting movement, one successful Dispel or AMF and you are hosed. Way more than if you were a polymorphed sorcerer who's native form is mobile.

And let's be honest, at the levels a Queen would be playable, dispels and AMFs are going to happen.

Unable to manipulate objects means you have a feat tax of Eschew Materials, right? And does "unable to move" mean travel moving (effectively 0 speed) or moving moving (roughly paralyzed)? The former is annoying, the latter is utterly crippling. If you can't move, you can't cast spells without Still Spell (more feat taxes).

This 17 level casting is sounding less and less appealing.

You do get Eschew Materials as a Racial Bonus Feat.
Based on the description and statblock, I'm thinking the designers were thinking the former. The default Queen has an Item Creation feat and max ranks in Use Magic Device and no Still or Silent Spell.
The description and statblock make me think the designer's intent meant a Formian Queen was functionally a Return of the Jedi Jabba the Hutt in terms of physical ability.



Edit:

"A creature with no Dexterity score can’t move. If it can perform actions (such as casting spells), it applies its Intelligence modifier to initiative checks instead of a Dexterity modifier."

It's heavily implied that you can still cast spells. Which is lucky, since NPC Formian Queens might have trouble living up to their challenge rating otherwise.

I'm not sure how the RAW on no Strength score as a corporeal being interacts with that, though.

[Troacctid]

While Polymorph Any Object (or any other polymorph type spell) is a relatively straightforward means of getting movement, one successful Dispel or AMF and you are hosed. Way more than if you were a polymorphed sorcerer who's native form is mobile.

AMFs can definitely wreck you pretty hard, but dispels are less of an issue, since you can just recast it. You are a spontaneous caster, after all.

[JBarca]

Yes and no. You do need it, but it's also a racial bonus feat, so it's not a feat tax.


"A creature with no Dexterity score can’t move. If it can perform actions (such as casting spells), it applies its Intelligence modifier to initiative checks instead of a Dexterity modifier."

It's heavily implied that you can still cast spells. Which is lucky, since NPC Formian Queens might have trouble living up to their challenge rating otherwise.

I guess I should have cracked open the books before asking silly questions, eh?

The description and statblock make me think the designer's intent meant a Formian Queen was functionally a Return of the Jedi Jabba the Hutt in terms of physical ability.

Nice.

[ExLibrisMortis]

The formian queen automatically fails any and all reflex saves, strength checks (trip, bull rush) and dexterity checks. With str -- and dex --, she cannot, by RAW, exert any physical force on an object, and she is unable to move any of her appendages. I would nevertheless rule that she can cast spells, but somatic components are problematic, and expensive material/focus components are right out. One of the default spell picks is temporal stasis, requiring 5000 gp of materials that a queen cannot retrieve by herself. Maybe a worker can place the components on her body.

Most problematically, a queen (any formian, really) loses the Hive Mind ability when polymorphed, as it is an (Ex) quality of her base form, and not from class levels. That is really something I wouldn't want to shut down, if I were playing a formian queen.

[Inevitability]

Formian Taskmaster

Turns out there's third-party pathfinder material that has some pretty awesome formian pictures. I might even replace the warrior's and worker's with them.

Taskmasters have 6 RHD, and chassis-wise, they haven't improved much over warriors. A large boost to wisdom and charisma is the most notable change: apart from that there's slight improvements in strength, natural armor and SR, as well as the gain of telepathy and loss of a natural bite attack.

I almost forgot: taskmasters get two more fun little powers. The first: Dominate Monster at-will as a (Su) at CL 10, with the only limitations being that targets must be no larger than Large, targets are immune for 24 hours if they make a save, and the formian can't dominate more than four creatures at once. This happens to be very good.

Now, people might be reminded of the aboleth, which has a similar ability. However, the formian's is superior in several ways.

The aboleth can only use its ability thrice a day: a formian can just use it every round of combat and kill off the unwanted slaves after the fight. It's essentially a walking save-or-lose, except whoever loses also joins the formian's side.

In addition, an aboleth has to stay within a mile of slaves while no such range limit exists for the taskmaster. Finally, there's the matter of slaves breaking free: an aboleth's get a chance to break free every day, whereas a formian's can only escape by succeeding on ten successive saving throws (and even then it'll already have been under the formian's command for over a week).

But wait: I said there were two abilities. The second is simply called Dominated Creature, and it's a horrible mess of a trait. It's supposed to justify NPC taskmasters having a monster with them, but on a PC I'm not sure what it actually does. Can you choose any CR 4 creature to have permanently dominated? Can you replace it? If the old creature dies, does a new one appear magically? Is the domination Extraordinary? Does it take up one of your four domination slots? For the sake of sanity, I'm going to shelve it with the pugilist fighter and bloodlines, and put an asterisk here.

So what LA to give? I'm honestly stumped. In the end I'm going to go with +3*, but more out of a gut feeling than carefully deliberation.

[Flickerdart]

I'm not sure what it actually does. Can you choose any CR 4 creature to have permanently dominated? Can you replace it? If the old creature dies, does a new one appear magically? Is the domination Extraordinary? Does it take up one of your four domination slots?

I would just rule it as a backstory bonus - every Formian Taskmaster "spawns" with precisely one creature of CR 4 under its regular domination. It can dismiss the creature normally to free up its slot.

I would give the Taskmaster a +2 LA, given that its gimmick quickly becomes less useful, and its RHD prevent it from properly leveraging its mental stats with a spellcasting class. It's a one-trick pony, and its trick is shut down by a 1st level spell, passing a relatively easy DC, or progressively common immunity to mindp-affecting magic. It's also unable to perform the two best abuses of dominate (hitting someone repeatedly until they fail, and maintaining tons of minions). It also has no way to attract exotic minions to try and dominate, so the DM is easily able to limit what it can obtain.

And if LA buyoff is in effect, the Taskmaster could buy off +2 LA, but not +3.

[Troacctid]

Most problematically, a queen (any formian, really) loses the Hive Mind ability when polymorphed, as it is an (Ex) quality of her base form, and not from class levels. That is really something I wouldn't want to shut down, if I were playing a formian queen.

Actually, I don't think she loses the benefit. The way it's worded, any one formian grants the benefit to all other formians in range, not just itself, so as long as she has a minion, it should give her the perks even if she doesn't have the ability.