Armor designs for females?

[awa]

The problem is that there is no historically accurate clothing that shows a lot of skin, before the modern age people tended to wear full clothing or nothing at all.

think that calls for a citation needed, I seem to recall a lot of peoples outside of Europe wearing clothing that shows some skin.

[Talakeal]

think that calls for a citation needed, I seem to recall a lot of peoples outside of Europe wearing clothing that shows some skin.

True, this is a fairly eurocentric view.

Note, however, that I was sepcifcally talking about athletes.

As far as I have ever heard the concept of specially designed activewear is only about a hundred years old, before that people simply wore their sreet clothes or went fully or partially naked. If you really need a citation you should be able to find confirmation pretty quickly, for example a quick google search revealed https://www.leaf.tv/articles/history-of-activewear/

[pwykersotz]

Great post

Agreed on pretty much every level. Well said.

[1337 b4k4]

Eh, there's a fair number of "unremarkable woman who is inexplicably beset by a wide range of supernatural suitors" that's played serious. (::ahem:: Twilight ::ahem::) You generally have to go to the Japanese comedy harem for the male to be in that role (Tenchi... no man wants to actually be Tenchi).

Interestingly I think these are both actually the same trope, with a minor difference. They're both fill the "I don't want to be someone else, I want everyone to want me for me" fantasy. Rather than imagining we're different, and because of that, everyone wants us (James Bond / Wonder Woman), we instead imagine that everyone else is different, and because of that, everyone wants us. It's notable that these sort of harem (male and female) stories (at least that I'm familiar with) usually have the harem consisting of "different" (be it supernatural or alien) people, for whom our very ordinariness is exotic in its own right. The primary difference between Bella and Tenchi I think (admitting that I haven't read twilight and am only passingly familiar with the overall story) is that Bella attempts to take control over her situation and destiny, where as Tenchi is largely being carried away by the current of his life rather than steering the boat. Tenchi fulfills that fantasy of being wanted for our plainness, but I think is designed to let the fantasizer further fantasize that they would do different and take control.

[Hackulator]

I love it when a woman's armor has two distinct breasts on the breastplate.

"HEY LETS DESIGN THIS ARMOR TO DIRECT THRUSTS STRAIGHT INTO THE MIDDLE OF THE CHEST!"

[CharonsHelper]

Eh, there's a fair number of "unremarkable woman who is inexplicably beset by a wide range of supernatural suitors" that's played serious. (::ahem:: Twilight ::ahem::) You generally have to go to the Japanese comedy harem for the male to be in that role (Tenchi... no man wants to actually be Tenchi).

That is interesting - the Tenchi sort of role is semi-common in anime (average guy surrounded by wacky hot women who want him) but I can't think of what in the west has that premise for men. Generally the guy surrounded by ladies who want him actually is exceptional in some way.

I wonder if that's a east vs west culture thing or just a trend in anime specifically, and I don't know if it's as common in anime now as it was shortly post-Tenchi's success. (Also - I believe that the original Tenchi show had him actually be special due to being 1/4 alien and the heir to the empire who was the only one who could wield some techno-magic sword. I don't remember - I only got a few episodes in.)

[Nifft]

I love it when a woman's armor has two distinct breasts on the breastplate.

"HEY LETS DESIGN THIS ARMOR TO DIRECT THRUSTS STRAIGHT INTO THE MIDDLE OF THE CHEST!"

If it worked like that, then they'd just strengthen that one part, and it would be a frequently-copied innovation since that would legitimately make the armor perform better with less overall material.

Also: greek_breastplate_with_abs.jpg

[Deophaun]

Tenchi fulfills that fantasy of being wanted for our plainness, but I think is designed to let the fantasizer further fantasize that they would do different and take control.

No, I'm saying Tenchi is not a male fantasy; he does not exist for a male viewer to project himself on to. Every male that I've come across that's seen the series sees Tenchi as a buffoon and probably someone in need of a good face smashing. They would all rather believe that if they possessed the type of cosmic power Tenchi does, they wouldn't be as incompetent or oblivious. And because Tenchi exhibits that incompetence, the fact that all these women are still interested in him becomes a comedy.

Men do not want to be celebrated for their plainness; they would rather find what they excel at, show the world and get the girl that way.

And honestly, I don't think any man would want Tenchi's choices anyway. Let's see, you've got your sadist aunt, her pre-pubescent sister, a psychopath, a mad genius psychopath that likes to pretend to be a pre-pubescent girl, and a galactic ditz. Meanwhile, the only sane and non-flesh shivering one of the bunch is too busy being responsible to care about you.

Bella, however, is a female fantasy. If you're a woman, you're supposed to read that and swoon over the idea of having vampires and werewolves fight over you for no damn good reason.

[2D8HP]

No problem. I'm a big fan of this kind of plate armor for female fighters, for aesthetics reasons as well as practicality.

Spoiler: Elizabeth's armor from the movie

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Truly from a Golden Age.

As awesome as Cate Blanchett's as Queen Elizabeth was, how about:

Spoiler: A Maid in armor

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[Vitruviansquid]

What's weird to me is that I once thought there was a fetishistic delight in women wearing skimpy armor.

Nowadays, I perceive there to be a fetishistic delight in women wearing full armor.

[Max_Killjoy]

Even if the motivations and underlying thought processes are entirely different...

[2D8HP]

Nowadays, I perceive there to be....

Are you insinuating something?

[Nifft]

What's weird to me is that I once thought there was a fetishistic delight in women wearing skimpy armor.

Nowadays, I perceive there to be a fetishistic delight in women wearing full armor.

Me at 14: I want to play games with my friends and also see pictures of pretty girls in skimpy outfits. Oh, this product is a game and has such pictures! I will buy it.

Me today: I want a game that I can show the girls in my group so we can enjoy playing a game about all of our characters kicking ass. Oh, this product has females kicking ass! I will buy it.

What changed: at some point the cooties inoculations started working, and girls stopped being unapproachable idealizations. They became accomplices.

What's the same: I still like seeing pretty girls in skimpy clothing, but I don't need a gaming product for that. Just be a good game with pictures that help draw in my players -- including the girls who are players.


tl;dr - fetishes are forever, but the relative value of pandering changes.

[Vitruviansquid]

Meh.

The idea that skimpy fantasy armor exists for a male sexual fantasy is a pile of horse plop because the idea there is you can't have anything sexy whatsoever, but the people who think this don't want to admit that they just don't like sexy pictures for a variety of reasons.

You have a girl wearing sexy armor in a suggestive pose and people say "ah-ha! There's the male power fantasy because sexist men like to see objectified women!
You have a girl wearing sexy armor in a non-suggestive pose and people say "ah-ha! That's just the male power fantasy undermining the empowered pose with a sexy outfit!"
You have a girl wearing non-sexy armor in a suggestive pose and people say "ah-ha! That's just the male power fantasy objectifying the woman in non-sexy outfit because men just can't stand a woman not in a suggestive pose!"
So you are left with the only possibility being a girl in a non-sexy outfit with a non-suggestive pose.

... which would be insane, because that would require art fail to acknowledge there are women who have sexy body types out there, there are outfits that are both practical and visually sexy (look at the skirts on classical Greek and Roman soldiers!), there are people who like to dress and feel sexy.

So you should see that the idea that sexy female characters in art only exists for the male sexual fantasy is not smart. Actually, if you are drawing fantasy art, where the armor is going to mostly be unrealistic and expressive anyways, it would *not be realistic* to never have sexy outfits.

But as long as we're trying to read artists' minds by accusing them of including sexy pictures to be dirty perverts, I don't see why we're ruling out another perfectly viable reason. Sex, as well as violence, is a way to signal that some subject matter is mature. Tabletop RPGs sensibly need a way to get people to say "it's like playing pretend, BUT NOT JUST FOR KIDS" so sexiness, as well as violence, in these games' art help them advertise what they are to the audiences they want, and actually gives them an air of respectability.

But the culture has changed now, and maturity is now signalled by non-sexiness (due I would say to the nature of present-day internet feminism, but that is a whole other can of worms).

So when you get down to it...

People who used to enjoy sexy fantasy art did so because it signalled how mature their fantasy game/show/whatever was.
People now enjoy non-sexy fantasy art do so because it signals how mature their their fantasy game/show/whatever is.

It's the same.

[Lord Raziere]

What's weird to me is that I once thought there was a fetishistic delight in women wearing skimpy armor.

Nowadays, I perceive there to be a fetishistic delight in women wearing full armor.

Well its like, y'know, you hide it from somebody and when you finally reveal it, its more powerful when its all hidden and you only see it for special moments, because it makes seeing it at all special and beautiful. So its trading quantity of seeing it for quality, see? Much like how something can be your favorite food, but only enjoy it every once in a while so that it doesn't become normal and boring, see? If you skimpied everyone all the time, eventually people would grow up not seeing it as abnormal or skimpy at all and thus attach no meaning to it, and thus no pleasure from it, see?

so its like a natural backlash to preserve the pleasure, see?

[goto124]

When the appeal of sexiness wears off, such sexiness comes off as cheap and tacky, see? Nice use of accent, see?

My main argument is that skimpiness isn't an issue in and of itself, but its overuse in contexts that make no sense in order to sell more books /games/whatever is applicable, since this extends outside tabletop games).

Then again, someone posts that the overuse of sexiness doesn't actually exist, and another person offers the idea that non-sexiness is also a method of selling books.

[scalyfreak]

So I have no problem if you want your amazon to be in a bikini (no clue why, but it's your amazon)

That because you didn't spend puberty developing a pair of over-sized mammary glands, padded with clumps of fat cells, at the front of your torso.

If you want a clue, try doing these steps, in order:

1. Borrow, and put on, a large bra.
2. Stuff the cups with two cantaloupe melons.
3. Do jumping jacks for 30 seconds

Now you understand why amazons wear bras.


Also, I think 1337 b4k4 is winning this thread.

[Arbane]

Yes I've seen this before, and frankly, I find it unconvincing. For one, no one whose ever said "half naked muscular men are male power fantasies, not female sex fantasies" has ever given a good example of what would be a sex fantasy for women but would not be a male power fantasy (short of BSDM, which let's face it folks, there's plenty of men who find submission a turn-on too).

Shortpacked tries to explain it.

[Satinavian]

WoW is Asian now? When did that happen? (I remember a while back seeing a WoW cartoon contest that specifically said 'no jokes about female armor', otherwise that was ALL THEY'D GET.)

- WoW is quite tame compared to a lot of Asian MMOs.
- WoW has stupid armor for everyone. Granted, it sexualizes women far more, but that does not mean that female armor is that much more stupid or less functional than the male version with its shoulder pauldrons of ridiculousness
- I explicitely said "occasionally". I fully agree that it does happen and that WoW is quite bad for a western RPG at female armor.

Which RPGs had reasonable female armor in the 1980s?

I didn't play RPGs in the 80s. Didn't get those imperialist consumer products behind the iron curtain. But afaik some of the most famous RPGs from the 80s that were not D&D were e.g.

-Runequest


-TDE

Spoiler

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-Midgard




You might not like it, but D&D is more the odd outlier than the norm and has been for a very long time.

[goto124]

Took me too long to realise you did not say Runescape.

[Vitruviansquid]

That cover has possibly the best posse I've ever seen on an RPG book.

[Calthropstu]

"Boob plate" was not a thing to my knowledge except for very few female commanders.
As for heavy plate, it was rarely used by anyone but knights due to the high cost. Most used leather or chain.
Women rarely used armor at all since few women in any civilization were allowed into combat... it's genetically stupid to allow women into war after all.
As for drawing female armor to show cleavage... I can see it being a thing. Not for dungeon delving maybe, but as formal wear or around town when you're trying to gather information etc. You're still mostly protected, and many women DO like to show off that particular part of their body.
Personally, I don't care how covered a character is. It's a pretend fantasy game... run around butt naked for all I care. Getting into arguments about how covered someone else's character is is just plain silly.

[Anonymouswizard]

What's weird to me is that I once thought there was a fetishistic delight in women wearing skimpy armor.

Nowadays, I perceive there to be a fetishistic delight in women wearing full armor.

Darn, you discovered my secret!

That because you didn't spend puberty developing a pair of over-sized mammary glands, padded with clumps of fat cells, at the front of your torso.

If you want a clue, try doing these steps, in order:

1. Borrow, and put on, a large bra.
2. Stuff the cups with two cantaloupe melons.
3. Do jumping jacks for 30 seconds

Now you understand why amazons wear bras.

Sorry, I wasn't trying to say 'I don't know why they'd be wearing a bikini instead of toplessness', I meant 'I don't know why they'd wear a bikini instead of normal clothing (including cheat support)'. On the other hand, as I said, it's your Amazon, if she doesn't want to wear a robe then that's cool, feel free to dress your characters however you want. I've played enough bare chested sexy men in my time to throw stones.

[Kardwill]

Another good example is science fiction. A space suit that leaves bare skin open is going to come across as really stupid to most of the audience.

It's been done, though. Look at the Mass Effect series. In #1, all characters use spacesuits with full helmet when doing missions in dangerous environment, and are in full body armor while in combat. These ARE form-fitting armors with boob plates, sure, but they don't look too much out of place.
And then theres #2, where you find characters fighting almost nude or with deep-cleavage chestplates and where several female character's "spacesuit" (Jake and Miranda) consist of revealing clothes with lots od skin exposed and a flimsy mouth-and-nose mask, when their male counterparts wear full bodysuits with helmets.

Spoiler: spacesuit sillyness

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And in #3, the stocky, badass female marine has been zapped into some curveous top-model I didn't even recognize at first glance

[Kardwill]

I love it when a woman's armor has two distinct breasts on the breastplate.

"HEY LETS DESIGN THIS ARMOR TO DIRECT THRUSTS STRAIGHT INTO THE MIDDLE OF THE CHEST!"

Bonus point if said cleavage between the boob plates is left exposed, as seen in many "female plates" ^^

But I find it on par with horned helmets and soulder spikes

"Hey, let's add some horribly heavy stuff that will drive near misses toward my head and upper body, and transform glancing blows into direct full-force hits. What could happen?"

[Pugwampy]

Now you understand why amazons wear bras.

The word Amazon means "without a breast." Supposedly they chopped or burnt off one of their bewbs to improve their archer efficiency .

This is why we prefer girl monks and wizards . They can show as much thigh as they want to .

[Calthropstu]

Bonus point if said cleavage between the boob plates is left exposed, as seen in many "female plates" ^^

But I find it on par with horned helmets and soulder spikes

"Hey, let's add some horribly heavy stuff that will drive near misses toward my head and upper body, and transform glancing blows into direct full-force hits. What could happen?"

To be fair, it's not a bad idea once magic protection becomes involved... "Let's make this area here look visibly unguarded, but put the highest magical protection known to man there anchoring it to the less protective metal/leather... because it LOOKS exposed, the attacker will wail ineffectively at this one spot allowing an opening in their defenses to strike."
Such a tactic would lure what an attacker would assume is a fatal strike and bam... deflected by magical defense and now you have a sword in your attacker's ribcage.

[goto124]

No story or game ever seems to use that tactic, though.

[Satinavian]

I had once a character doing that. Only instead of providing magical protection to exposed body parts using illusions to hide the proper armor parts.

Wasn't really mechanically relevant but seemed the obvious thing to do after getting access to something similar to glamor armor enchantments.

[awa]

No story or game ever seems to use that tactic, though.

that's technically not true there was a forgotten realms character who had a boob window protected by a small wall of force.