The LA-assignment Thread IV: Live Free or Hit Die Hard

[Random Sanity]

Just barely good enough for +0. Their one interesting ability is more flavorful than useful since they can't willingly cancel it - it's far more likely to backfire on a PC than help them.

[Celestia]

I think the point of the tree shape ability is for DMs to be d*cks. These goblins are for when a party sets up camp in the forest and intelligently makes reasonable defenses, including one or more guards, but you still want to surprise them with an ambush.

"You got a 26 on your spot check? There are no enemies near the campsite. Oh wait whoops. The bush you're standing next to turns into a goblin and stabs you. Roll initiative."

[Inevitability]

Just barely good enough for +0. Their one interesting ability is more flavorful than useful since they can't willingly cancel it - it's far more likely to backfire on a PC than help them.

I'd like to point out that you can in fact reliably de-activate it by having an ally deal one point of damage to the shrub. Just let the party wizard punch you, or zap you with a cantrip, and you should be good to go.

[Celestia]

I'd like to point out that you can in fact reliably de-activate it by having an ally deal one point of damage to the shrub. Just let the party wizard punch you, or zap you with a cantrip, and you should be good to go.

I can't see any situation in which being a shrub would be beneficial and not completely undermined by also having a wizard stand next to you.

[DeTess]

I wonder, would a goblin that spends each day as a tree need to eat, or would he be able to photosynthesize all the sustenance he/she needs?

[DeTess]

I can't see any situation in which being a shrub would be beneficial and not completely undermined by also having a wizard stand next to you.

You could use it for reconnaisance/spying/evesdropping by planting yourself in a location of interest. Then, when you've done your job, an ally can wander by to de-tree you.

[Celestia]

You could use it for reconnaisance/spying/evesdropping by planting yourself in a location of interest. Then, when you've done your job, an ally can wander by to de-tree you.

That won't work inside a city as it'll be too conspicuous for a random bush to suddenly be somewhere it's never been before, and spying on someone who's future location you can reasonably predict only works when dealing with individuals who live by schedules, i.e. city dwellers. Maybe if you want to spy on, like, a farmer or something that'll work, but I can't imagine the farmer will have anything useful to say.

[No brains]

That won't work inside a city as it'll be too conspicuous for a random bush to suddenly be somewhere it's never been before, and spying on someone who's future location you can reasonably predict only works when dealing with individuals who live by schedules, i.e. city dwellers. Maybe if you want to spy on, like, a farmer or something that'll work, but I can't imagine the farmer will have anything useful to say.

Is the kind of shrub specified? A ******** goblin could fit right into a poorly maintained garden, lawn, or even gutter. They could also disguise as a decorative tree; from a classy dracena to a festive conifer.

[Covenant12]

It's no water orc, but it seems mostly in line with PHB races. +0 LA seems fine.

Pretty much. Not as good as water orc, human, dwarf, strongheart halfling, or whisper gnome. But honestly better than many PHB races for a Cha based caster or ranger. Rogue gets hurt by -2 int but possible.

Small size but 30' move, +2 dex, -2 int, +1 NA, climb speed, darkvision, very stealthy in forests. I can see people taking this at +0 but I don't think its overpowered. No way is that +1, reasonably in line with +0 PHB race with some fun toys.

[Celestia]

Is the kind of shrub specified? A ******** goblin could fit right into a poorly maintained garden, lawn, or even gutter. They could also disguise as a decorative tree; from a classy dracena to a festive conifer.

How many people go spouting secrets while standing on their lawn?

[OgresAreCute]

How many people go spouting secrets while standing on their lawn?

Oh, random misplaced shrub, you're the only one who understands me...

[Luccan]

I think the point of the tree shape ability is for DMs to be d*cks. These goblins are for when a party sets up camp in the forest and intelligently makes reasonable defenses, including one or more guards, but you still want to surprise them with an ambush.

"You got a 26 on your spot check? There are no enemies near the campsite. Oh wait whoops. The bush you're standing next to turns into a goblin and stabs you. Roll initiative."

Probably the most frustrating part is that they don't work that way (at least, if your DM is being reasonable). They have to stay in plant form for 12 hours. Although, a travelling forest of goblins would be interesting.

Edit: Would they be +1 LA if they could control their Tree Shape?

[Random Sanity]

Probably the most frustrating part is that they don't work that way (at least, if your DM is being reasonable). They have to stay in plant form for 12 hours. Although, a travelling forest of goblins would be interesting.

Edit: Would they be +1 LA if they could control their Tree Shape?

Considering it's only 1/day, I doubt it. If it were at-will, then yeah, I could see making it a weak +1.


... And now I have this mental image of an entire party hiding behind the treeformed goblin cartoon-style to avoid a dimwitted guard patrol.

[Celestia]

Probably the most frustrating part is that they don't work that way (at least, if your DM is being reasonable). They have to stay in plant form for 12 hours. Although, a travelling forest of goblins would be interesting.

Edit: Would they be +1 LA if they could control their Tree Shape?

Sure they work that way. They just happened to transform exactly 12 hours ago.

[javcs]

Probably the most frustrating part is that they don't work that way (at least, if your DM is being reasonable). They have to stay in plant form for 12 hours. Although, a travelling forest of goblins would be interesting.

Edit: Would they be +1 LA if they could control their Tree Shape?

Sure they work that way. They just happened to transform exactly 12 hours ago.

Don't even need to utilize DM fiat like that.

After all, it's not like the party's going to start setting up camp after sunset. No, they're going set up camp some hours before, and when the sun sets, bam, the forestkith automatically drop Tree Shape in the middle of the party eating dinner/on downtime.

[ExLibrisMortis]

I just want to see this goblin's reaction when they realize it's an arctic survival campaign...

[liquidformat]

Even if Discordant frenzy didn't require a single budy it would still suck, it is alright until you hit level 3 if you pump cha but after that it is garbage and most of the time it is garbage as is. So these guys have a draw back ex, a garbage ex, and a third ex that is useless enough to also be boardline garbage since it is once a day and can't remove for 12 hours by yourself. The only real plus they have over normal goblins is that their ability scores are net 0 and a climb speed. So +0 LA but given their bad special abilities and that their negative stat is int I wouldn't even call them a high +0 they are middling at best.


on a side note there is some questionably anatomical shadowing happening between their legs...

[Inevitability]

Golem, Alchemical

I could blame the 22 construct RHD for ruining this thing, but then I'd be neglecting the awful stats (23 strength, 12 dex, otherwise bad or nonexistent), ally-harming abilities (turns out rupturing to spread toxic acid from every other attack isn't great for party members), inability to receive buffs, and tendency to go insane forever after a few rounds of combat.

-0* LA, given that this is literally unplayable as long as Berserk remains.

[OgresAreCute]

Golems: Everyone's favorite unplayable heaps of awful RHD since MM1.

-0.

[ViperMagnum357]

Golems: LA -0 and then some.




Fine, analysis: 22 Construct RHD and ohgodwhy

This is just bad on so many levels that will be elaborated upon by future posts, I just want to point out how it costs 500 GP to restore HP to this thing without the proper magic. Retch.

More seriously, about the only remotely useful attribute is the SR-Yes magic immunity. If you want that, go look for a more playable Golem.

[danielxcutter]

Why do WotC hate monstrous characters so much and goblinoids in particular? I mean seriously, if they'd just dropped the section about monster PCs then people would be able to make it work somehow via houserule without actually ignoring the actual rules... oh wait, maybe because that way they can assign insultingly crippling ECLs to monsters they don't like and justify it by pointing to that section? *facepalms*

You know, I'm starting to understand why Redcloak's so pissy towards humans, nowadays...

[ExLibrisMortis]

It's possible to berserk-proof a golem for only 3000 gp (Dragon #327, page 73). This doesn't affect CR and definitely won't affect LA, because it's still a fat -0, but it can take care of the *.

Along the same lines, it's possible to spend 8000 gp to add an Intelligence score equal to half the creator's caster level (that'd be 7, for the alchemical golem), which is significant improvement, unlocking feats and a single skill point per level.

[Celestia]

Why do WotC hate monstrous characters so much and goblinoids in particular? I mean seriously, if they'd just dropped the section about monster PCs then people would be able to make it work somehow via houserule without actually ignoring the actual rules... oh wait, maybe because that way they can assign insultingly crippling ECLs to monsters they don't like and justify it by pointing to that section? *facepalms*

You know, I'm starting to understand why Redcloak's so pissy towards humans, nowadays...

Oh, I think orcs have it worse. Net negative stat mods, no traits at all beyond darkvision, and a further penalty on top with light sensitivity as if it was somehow already too good. Orcs were handed the shortest of all sticks.

[OgresAreCute]

Oh, I think orcs have it worse. Net negative stat mods, no traits at all beyond darkvision, and a further penalty on top with light sensitivity as if it was somehow already too good. Orcs were handed the shortest of all sticks.

Well, at least +4 strength and no LA is good for something. Now, hobgoblins on the other hand...

[javcs]

Concur, -0*.

For all intents and purposes, it's basically unplayable.

[Celestia]

Well, at least +4 strength and no LA is good for something. Now, hobgoblins on the other hand...

Touché. I forgot that they were actually given +1 LA for whatever insane reason.

[liquidformat]

ya nothing above -0* la for that poor poor golem, shudder this is going to be a long while of -0...

[Mike Miller]

-0* is appropriate for the golem.

Somehow I expected more from the MM3

[Luccan]

Oh, I think orcs have it worse. Net negative stat mods, no traits at all beyond darkvision, and a further penalty on top with light sensitivity as if it was somehow already too good. Orcs were handed the shortest of all sticks.

Well, at least +4 strength and no LA is good for something. Now, hobgoblins on the other hand...

Orcs. Truly the Half-Orcs of Monster PCs.

As to the Golem: It's terrible. 22 Construct RHD are bad. The lack of any abilities and abysmal stat bonuses make me confident any properly built Warrior could make short work of it. -0

[OgresAreCute]

Golems have bit of the undead problem: their hitdice don't get bonus HP so they need very many of them. This thing could have easily had 11 RHD with a +5 constitution modifier or equivalent. To my knowledge there are no constructs that get +HP per hit die.