General WoD Discussion #5: Chronicles of Duty: Modern Darkness

[The Jack]

Whats the consensus on v5?

didnt happen, isnt played and shan't be named?

[Anonymouswizard]

Whats the consensus on v5?

didnt happen, isnt played and shan't be named?

I was interested, saw it would cost me £40, and decided to wait.

From what I can tell it still has most of the bits from the play test that I didn't like. I think I'm just going to stick with Requiem 2e. V5 feels like an attempt to take Masquerade and turn it into Requiem 2.0, but the thing is if I want Requiem I'll play Requiem, and V20 it's still the best game out there for playing Masquerade.

However the one thing I do like is the explicit attempt to modernise the Clans and the fact that the Clan write-ups include at explicitly showing a range of neonates.

[fishyfishyfishy]

Whats the consensus on v5?

didnt happen, isnt played and shan't be named?

I like it. The pdf copy is a bit of a chore to read however, and the severe distribution issues is making misinformation and half-truths about the system to spread among the community. They're supposed to be releasing the Anarch and Camarilla books this month, but we've barely seen anything on them and some people still don't have their core book! White Wolf lost their CEO and the remainder of folks are fighting over the direction to take the company and it's causing them to suffer.

[The Jack]

Well, when i read it, it seemed like they got so many fundamentals wrong.

The discipline rules are writen with larp in mind and seem more gamey than the more intuitive powers of prior editions most of the disciplines are weaker and use blood (There's a metaphysical argument to be made as well as a balance one). Dominate was gutted so terribly that it's a miracle the masquerade could ever exist, but i think they had to change it to get the inquisition story they wanted.

The tremere arent tremere.
Thin bloods are bull****.
Changing your gender is apparently a lvl 1 ritual, as if it were easy.
The writers make fun of lizard-people conspiracies in a book about vampires controlling the media
The sabbat sendoff was incredibly stupid:the middle eastern wars are calamities, but they arent something to be relevant to vampires, beings that live for centuries and over countless wars: to say "these wars are more important than those wars" is just... there is no tact or nuance in such thinking.

[fishyfishyfishy]

Oh I see, you were just baiting so that you could complain about it - and we fell for it.

[The Jack]

Better than just opening with the rant. I really got into prior editions, so v5 felt like a betrayal. I cant imagine what their take on W:tA would look like, but it wont be good.
I do like the predator types though, but i think they made character creation needlessly difficult.

Using grafiti tags to mark territory is novel aand worth taking, though it kinda seems out of character for high clans.

[fishyfishyfishy]

Well, I like it a lot. The meta plot changes are interesting, discipline consolidation and other changes are nice, and a great job refocusing on horror and the original idea of the game.

[Anonymouswizard]

Well, I like it a lot. The meta plot changes are interesting, discipline consolidation and other changes are nice, and a great job refocusing on horror and the original idea of the game.

While I don't own the book itself (it's available at my FLGS, but it's been a while since I dumped £40 on a new book), this is what I'm mainly worried about. If I want Masquerade, as in the old editions setup with Cam, Sabbat, Anarchs, and the ancients cold war, is it worth spending £40 on it or should I just get a physical copy of V20?

Because I have a good generic vampire game. Everything I've heard about V5 doesn't seem to sell me on 'I can't easily do this in Requiem by restricting Clans or Covenants', so as somebody who owns and likes Requiem 2e and uses it as his main Vampire game, but finds it can't run Masquerade to his liking, is it worth getting V5 or if I want 'old school Masquerade' should I spend the extra money for V20?

[Morty]

Speaking as a Requiem 2E ST whose plot was repeatedly bullrushed by Dominate, gutting it doesn't sound like such a bad idea. Though I guess part of it was just me trying to run an investigative plot with vampires and finding out why it's tricky.

[Anonymouswizard]

Speaking as a Requiem 2E ST whose plot was repeatedly bullrushed by Dominate, gutting it doesn't sound like such a bad idea. Though I guess part of it was just me trying to run an investigative plot with vampires and finding out why it's tricky.

To be fair Requiem 2e arguably made Dominate even more powerful, if a bit trickier to use. But yeah, Dominate can make short work of anything based on deception if your players know how to use it, thankfully it's rarer in Requiem (being the Ventrue's signiature means it still requires a bit of work to get, and there aren't 4+ Clans* with it). Plus Requiem 2e seemed to be under the idea that every Discipline should be overpowered, it's just that Dominate gets the plot-breaking effects a lot earlier than Animalism or Nightmare.

* IIRC Giovanni, Lasombra, Tremere, and Ventrue, with it being standard for Malkavians in 1e and 2e.

[fishyfishyfishy]

If I want Masquerade, as in the old editions setup with Cam, Sabbat, Anarchs, and the ancients cold war, is it worth spending £40 on it or should I just get a physical copy of V20?

Because I have a good generic vampire game. Everything I've heard about V5 doesn't seem to sell me on 'I can't easily do this in Requiem by restricting Clans or Covenants', so as somebody who owns and likes Requiem 2e and uses it as his main Vampire game, but finds it can't run Masquerade to his liking, is it worth getting V5 or if I want 'old school Masquerade' should I spend the extra money for V20?

Maybe wait and see what the Camarilla and Anarch books have to say before deciding. If you want something stuck perpetually in the mentality of the Camarilla vs. Sabbat with Gehenna looming, then you might be better off with V20. V5 actively advances to the modern era and totally changes the dynamic of daily Vampire life. They have to watch out with their tech use, or the Vampire hunters in the government will track them down and kill them. Many elders in power have been killed, and there's a shadow war going on in the Middle East that a huge portion of the Sabbat are participating in (I'm leaning on this somehow being tied into Ur-Shulgi's awakening). Not to mention the Tremere Inner Circle supposedly being wiped out and Goratrix showing back up (and we all know who that really is).

The meta-plot is quite strong, but very different from the stasis that it was in during the 90s (which V20 did not see fit to update from until Beckett's Jyhad Diary).

[Morty]

To be fair Requiem 2e arguably made Dominate even more powerful, if a bit trickier to use. But yeah, Dominate can make short work of anything based on deception if your players know how to use it, thankfully it's rarer in Requiem (being the Ventrue's signiature means it still requires a bit of work to get, and there aren't 4+ Clans* with it). Plus Requiem 2e seemed to be under the idea that every Discipline should be overpowered, it's just that Dominate gets the plot-breaking effects a lot earlier than Animalism or Nightmare.

* IIRC Giovanni, Lasombra, Tremere, and Ventrue, with it being standard for Malkavians in 1e and 2e.

Requiem 2E definitely beefs up Dominate. I'm not sure if it needed that, honestly. Many 1E Disciplines needed beefing up, particularly the physical ones or Protean and Obfuscate whose low-dot effects were weak or just plain useless. But Dominate seemed fine as it was. I can understand 2E's attitude that vampire powers should be terrifying, but the practical effects it has on the story are hard to adjust to.

[Anonymouswizard]

Requiem 2E definitely beefs up Dominate. I'm not sure if it needed that, honestly. Many 1E Disciplines needed beefing up, particularly the physical ones or Protean and Obfuscate whose low-dot effects were weak or just plain useless. But Dominate seemed fine as it was. I can understand 2E's attitude that vampire powers should be terrifying, but the practical effects it has on the story are hard to adjust to.

I can see the intent behind the 2e powers, it feels like they wanted Dominate to really show off the Conditions, but yeah. While it didn't get the biggest boost in power out of the lot it was already far better than many other Disciplines in 1e.

The real problem with Dominate is that it's a very effective hammer. Majesty, Nightmare, and Obfuscate are absolutely terrifying if you can pull them off, but Dominate 2 (and arguably some clever uses of Dominate 1) allows you to bludgeon your way through almost any social situation and get what you want. It's one of the few powers that I would put a hard lock on it's use (like how you couldn't use it on those of a lower Generation in Masquerade), and I really don't think it's second dot power should be free.

Also I remember 1e's Fortitude and Vigor. I'm not sad that they're gone and replaced with the actually useful if potentially masquerade breaching versions we have now.

[The Jack]

Everything v5 metaplot was turning tables, only they turned the tables so much that they're upsideown on the floor and someone expects you to eat off it.

No longer do you fear the elders, now you fear the humans.
No longer do you beat on the thin bloods; they're the future.
No longer do the tremere blood bond, or have any respect for magical craft, apparently.
No longer do you need the jyhad, the struggle, alternate political entities are available at your convenience, and they're all weak enough for an easy game.

No longer can the masquerade be reasonably kept; vampires really struggle to control their own actions on a nightly basis, making species-wide suicide a rather relevant question.
Also, as all disciplines are now active (previously many were passive or easy to use) why would anyone struggle to kill the elders?

Speculation: In the werewolf book, we'll find the tribes united (the CoG leading that, of course), the breeds co-operating, and we'll find ourselves battling the wyrm across the umbral internet, trying to create safe spaces. In Mage, the traditions and technocracy make peace and find the 10th sphere, love, leaving the players with the job of marketing their magickal inventions to the masses...

Really, v5 is world-changingly radical, in no way good. Its like a child listed a bunch of exciting things to shake the world up, heedless of the consequences.

[Morty]

I can see the intent behind the 2e powers, it feels like they wanted Dominate to really show off the Conditions, but yeah. While it didn't get the biggest boost in power out of the lot it was already far better than many other Disciplines in 1e.

The real problem with Dominate is that it's a very effective hammer. Majesty, Nightmare, and Obfuscate are absolutely terrifying if you can pull them off, but Dominate 2 (and arguably some clever uses of Dominate 1) allows you to bludgeon your way through almost any social situation and get what you want. It's one of the few powers that I would put a hard lock on it's use (like how you couldn't use it on those of a lower Generation in Masquerade), and I really don't think it's second dot power should be free.

That's exactly the problem, yes. Because of how skewed the opposed roll is, you can get whatever you want from someone as long as you can look them in the eye. Now of course there's still limitations, like that you can only do it to one person at a time, and overusing it will make those in the know refuse to engage with you face to face. But those don't always apply.

[The Jack]

Dominate was one of my favourites because it heavily rewarded smart play. Use it like a bludgeon and get a quick victory but another problem down the line. A hunter, a talk with the sherrif over gossip heard, a rival who now opposes you for interloping with his herd/ supporters.

Also, dominate 2 usually wont work in combat. People can't do stuff that they think will kill them, and that includes surrender if you're trying to murder them.

But if you nerf dominate, there is no masquerade.

[SaurOps]

Everything v5 metaplot was turning tables, only they turned the tables so much that they're upsideown on the floor and someone expects you to eat off it.

No longer do you fear the elders, now you fear the humans.
No longer do you beat on the thin bloods; they're the future.
No longer do the tremere blood bond, or have any respect for magical craft, apparently.
No longer do you need the jyhad, the struggle, alternate political entities are available at your convenience, and they're all weak enough for an easy game.

No longer can the masquerade be reasonably kept; vampires really struggle to control their own actions on a nightly basis, making species-wide suicide a rather relevant question.
Also, as all disciplines are now active (previously many were passive or easy to use) why would anyone struggle to kill the elders?

Speculation: In the werewolf book, we'll find the tribes united (the CoG leading that, of course), the breeds co-operating, and we'll find ourselves battling the wyrm across the umbral internet, trying to create safe spaces. In Mage, the traditions and technocracy make peace and find the 10th sphere, love, leaving the players with the job of marketing their magickal inventions to the masses...

Really, v5 is world-changingly radical, in no way good. Its like a child listed a bunch of exciting things to shake the world up, heedless of the consequences.

If the MET Werewolf LARP metaplot and hints in Changing Ways are any indication, we will definitely not be getting that for W:tA. What we are likely to get is an even more fragmented society with more mutual hatred, more difficult Umbral access at best as people who definitely seem bigger on Vampire than anything else try to remove un-Vampire like bits of other games, and a heavy emphasis on fatalistic ecoterrorism over spiritual matters.

[The Jack]

More fragmented is possibly good, they're far too hunk dory in w20, the only reason the breeds arent in a much better place for their war is that they infight too much. But cutting of or distancing the Umbra is a no, they need it, and i'd argue many of the flaws in garou society come from umbral influences.

I think they'd have to nerf the garou to **** if they wanted to focus on the material side, just like they made vampires weak to make humans more relevant (Personally, I'd just make stats for military grade equipment, but that'd be far too pro-gun for them.)

[Anonymouswizard]

Everything v5 metaplot was turning tables, only they turned the tables so much that they're upsideown on the floor and someone expects you to eat off it.

No longer do you fear the elders, now you fear the humans.
No longer do you beat on the thin bloods; they're the future.
No longer do the tremere blood bond, or have any respect for magical craft, apparently.
No longer do you need the jyhad, the struggle, alternate political entities are available at your convenience, and they're all weak enough for an easy game.

No longer can the masquerade be reasonably kept; vampires really struggle to control their own actions on a nightly basis, making species-wide suicide a rather relevant question.
Also, as all disciplines are now active (previously many were passive or easy to use) why would anyone struggle to kill the elders?

You no longer fear the Elders, you now fear the humans? Sounds like Requiem, just with useless Elders.

You no longer beat on the thin bloods? But I liked having the 13th generation look down on me! (either for being 14th generation or for having both Stereotype and Victim of the Masquerade)

Wait, the Tremere don't Blood Bond? While I do think the later editions made them more Vampire-MAGES rather than VAMPIRE-Mages, I always saw their greater clan structure as part of their core identity, of which Blood Bonding all their fledglings was an important step (although they could do with a real Clan Weakness, while the V20 one is nice I'd just give them the Tzimisce weakness).

I also think a key part of the Masquerade identity was that the Camarilla and Sabbat were the big players of Kindred society, and the only alternative political entity was trying really hard to balance 'being relevant' with 'not betraying our principles'. Plus Requiem already did the 'alternate political entities' bit well, including having them all be something a player might theoreticall gain power in (due to their influence varying city by city).

With the Masquerade being harder to keep, again Requiem. While it needs a bit of updating 2e points out how much harder modern technology made keeping the Masquerade, an entire faction is dedicated towards it, and the kindred's hunger makes ensuring they never run dry enough for it to matter an important element (if your players don't want to handwave it).

Speculation: In the werewolf book, we'll find the tribes united (the CoG leading that, of course), the breeds co-operating, and we'll find ourselves battling the wyrm across the umbral internet, trying to create safe spaces. In Mage, the traditions and technocracy make peace and find the 10th sphere, love, leaving the players with the job of marketing their magickal inventions to the masses...

Really, v5 is world-changingly radical, in no way good. Its like a child listed a bunch of exciting things to shake the world up, heedless of the consequences.

Nah, in WtA we'll discover that the Garou Nation has split into three entities ruled by the Silver Fangs, Shadow Lords, and Black Furies, the Red Talons have murdered the Children of Gaia, the Glass Walkers fell to the Wyrm while tthe Bone Gnawers fell to the Weaver, and Pentex is secretly behind all thepolitics of the world. Mage will see the Traditions bickering and under the heel of the Technocracy, who caused the (insert relatively recent real world thing here) in order to weaken the Tradition's power base. Plus science is still the root of all evil and all scientists are evil geniuses cackling evilly at the fact that they got the silly masses to disbelieve in homeopathy/spirtual healing/flight/ESP/bananas/the umbra so that they can sell them their more expensive substitute.

That's exactly the problem, yes. Because of how skewed the opposed roll is, you can get whatever you want from someone as long as you can look them in the eye. Now of course there's still limitations, like that you can only do it to one person at a time, and overusing it will make those in the know refuse to engage with you face to face. But those don't always apply.

Yep, the limitations are far too soft any don't even take much effort to work around. It's definitely not something you use on major NPCs, but as almost every Chronicle will include significantly more bit characters not in the know and unlikely to come back the ways to abuse it are nearly endless (as long as you're not too obvious).

[The Jack]

Yeah, the tremere dont blood bond.
The inner circle got blown up like chumps (you'd think it a ploy, but cammy assamites are a threat to magical monopoly and deserve a united front) and they all lost their blood bonds without leadership. Thus, they split ibto three houses; loyalists, goratrix (after that sabbat dude) and carna... who are feminist radicals rebelling against the patriarchal tremere, and that they're going to use pagan or gnostic magic rather than wholesome hermetic theory, because apparently thats an easy switch to make.

I've always felt radical femenism doesn't make sense for those over the age of a hundred. All the vampires reproduce the same way and age is far more relevant to power than physique. Individuals may hold personal beliefs, but it's not something that'll dominate a house or a bloodline.

Your garou nation ideas are hilarious...

[Anonymouswizard]

Yeah, the tremere dont blood bond.
The inner circle got blown up like chumps (you'd think it a ploy, but cammy assamites are a threat to magical monopoly and deserve a united front) and they all lost their blood bonds without leadership. Thus, they split ibto three houses; loyalists, goratrix (after that sabbat dude) and carna... who are feminist radicals rebelling against the patriarchal tremere, and that they're going to use pagan or gnostic magic rather than wholesome hermetic theory, because apparently thats an easy switch to make.

Wait, what?

The entire point of the Tremere was that they were a tight Clan of vampires who practiced Hermetic magic. The tight Clan structure was the most unique thing about them, because they weren't the only blood sorcerers out there (off the top of my head Assamite Sorcerers, Tzimisce Kolduns, Giovanni/Cappadocians, various Sabbat traditions, a handful of independant or Camarilla-aligned mystics). So their solution to the Tremere being different is to split them into three houses, one of which is essentially a bunch of Brujah witches? I'd accept the Tremere being forced to loosen their monopoly on Blood Magic in the wake of their leadership being destroyed, but even if other Camarilla Clans get a handful of witches the Tremere sould still be able to keep enough structure to retain a lot of influence for their new inner circle. Most Assamite Sorcerers are probably still independent anyway, which means the Tremere still have a near-monopoly on Blood Magic theory.

I thought the Tremere were no more patriarchal than the other clans anyway? A tendency to be a bit more static, but the pyramid has enough holes in it that surely they'd be promoting anybody with the qualifications to the higher levels. Especially if the inner circle has to be replaced wholesale, while their membership used to lean heavily male there's surely enough female masters that getting a 4:3 gender ratio (in either weighting) would be simple. Tremere himself has likely killed or isn't able to take command, so the new inner circle would probably either be elected or won by strength (in which case the new seven are those with the most Thaumaturgy and Dominate).

I've always felt radical femenism doesn't make sense for those over the age of a hundred. All the vampires reproduce the same way and age is far more relevant to power than physique. Individuals may hold personal beliefs, but it's not something that'll dominate a house or a bloodline.

I think that radical feminism has a place in Vampire. It sounds like something that a lot of Brujah fledglings take up for a handful of years before they decide to focus on causes with more personal meaning. But certainly not for any Kindred with any actual age or political power behind them, except as a tool to increase their power base (one of my ghouls is a radical feminist, let's try to push her into politics...).

Your garou nation ideas are hilarious...

I wish I was just making a joke, but I wouldn't be surprised if all of it turned out to be true. My actual expectations are somewhat different, but the idea that the Garou Nation splits into multiple factions, one or more tribes are destroyed or fall, and Pentex becomes even more evil are all things I expect to see. Because new White Wolf seems to be focusing on the edgy grimdark aspects of the setting, which I'm not convinced were ever the most popular parts (partially due to the fact that Mage is still a very popular game).

[The Jack]

I agree completely with you on feminism. It's perfectly normal among younger vampires, and I think sexism towards kine would still take place in older vampires, but you just can't sustain a sexist attitude having ever met a female elder. The Cainite condition eradicates the important differences, for cainites at least.

The splintering of the houses can only possibly work as a ploy; The tremere heads play dead and conduct a cool spell to stop bonds, most of the disloyal elements/idiots show who they are in excitement (and House Carna nerfs itself hard by wasting time to reimagine the stuff they already know into pagan/gnostic traditions, if that's not an infernal/settite ploy)
Then the glorious elders rise up and cleanse the Tremere master race of their impurities, enabling them to concentrate their efforts on magical monopoly.

But... i don't think they'll do that. For one, the new houses are an inclusivity gambit and they'll shoot themselves before they crush an imagined social justice. For another, V5 is all about weakening the power structures so that players can feel more empowered, and my proposed move would strengthen the tremere hold greatly.

And no, Tremere aren't a very sexist clan. Their inner circle has at least two women in it IIRC (P.S: checked, two women), and I think at least one non-straight dude (they're all white, but they're from 10th century central europe european magic tradition) (PS: modern members are not all white) They originated from a mage house, and mage houses will... actually I'm rather unsure of the hermetic theory's stance towards women (what i have suggests it's fine), but the only glass ceiling is Tremere himself, (or if you were crazy enough to take no-magic M/F)

[lightningcat]

I think they'd have to nerf the garou to **** if they wanted to focus on the material side, just like they made vampires weak to make humans more relevant (Personally, I'd just make stats for military grade equipment, but that'd be far too pro-gun for them.)

There is a section/sidebar in Rage across the Amazonwhere it mentions that Storytellers should keep their players away from military grade weapons. This is of course the book where the main plot is about fighting a guerilla war in the Amazon and the stats for military weapons are provided, and most of the enemies have such weapons.
On the other hand, I actually understand this logic as I have created and run a game where military grade weapon were the norm. It can get bloody very fast, which is the point of those weapons. And it gets even worse once you add in vehicle mounted weapons.

[Morty]

It's kind of ironic that I came to nWoD, rather than oWoD, because the former treated mortals somewhat seriously. Now Chronicles are moving away from mortals, at least those who aren't hunters, posing any kind of threat to supers. While the classic WoD seems to be swinging back in the other direction. Or at least V:tM is. But then, V:tM did treat mortal hunters as a deadly threat to vampires. At the beginning, at least. Less so when it went into weird vampire superpowers territory.

That being said, I definitely can see the logic behind encouraging STs to be wary of military-grade weapons even while providing mechanics for them. They can dominate a game real quick. I had someone who insisted on using military-grade gear in a H:tV game once and wasn't a good enough ST to say no. Granted, the equipment was less of a problem than his general attitude.

[SaurOps]

There is a section/sidebar in Rage across the Amazonwhere it mentions that Storytellers should keep their players away from military grade weapons. This is of course the book where the main plot is about fighting a guerilla war in the Amazon and the stats for military weapons are provided, and most of the enemies have such weapons.
On the other hand, I actually understand this logic as I have created and run a game where military grade weapon were the norm. It can get bloody very fast, which is the point of those weapons. And it gets even worse once you add in vehicle mounted weapons.

Ah, the "not for you, you dirty hippy!" old days. While heavy weapons can deal out a lot of damage, stacking soak Gifts can actually stop even tank cannon shells cold; this goes double for Mokole, who can either become so well-armored that they stand a coin flip chance or better to bounce a shell without any Gifts, or so large that mere tank weaponry is meaningless, as seen in most Godzilla movies.

[The Jack]

I think i did the maths once and averaged all the stacking soak stuff ( Hiemdall, luna, troll hide and wolf-scour) to give you soak die in the 40's. Maybe combine with the right totem to average the 50's (Totems are wonderfully imbalanced...)

Moving on, I did some guestimates for big guns: a 20mm gun'll do 20 dice of damage (It's an extreme that'll be not unreasonably unobtainable in a USA game)
So.... uh... unless you take that Red talon gift that lets you ignore a technology and pick cannons, or cop out like a silver fang, there's no way you'll survive a main battle tank's gun ( an old ww2 sherman'll be at least 75mm, never mind modern Tanks) which is why the most important stat in the game is resources.

But it's rather unreasonable to get to that high point of soak, few characters are going to catch them all.
If you treated armour fairly(IE ignore the rules in the book completely, or at least double protection and remove the penalty for most things) maybe you could -super strength something extra thick.

But, in the context of vampire, big guns will get the job done: fortitude is a big investment and there's few other -more soak- powers ( also big investments).

[SaurOps]

I think i did the maths once and averaged all the stacking soak stuff ( Hiemdall, luna, troll hide and wolf-scour) to give you soak die in the 40's. Maybe combine with the right totem to average the 50's (Totems are wonderfully imbalanced...)

Moving on, I did some guestimates for big guns: a 20mm gun'll do 20 dice of damage (It's an extreme that'll be not unreasonably unobtainable in a USA game)
So.... uh... unless you take that Red talon gift that lets you ignore a technology and pick cannons, or cop out like a silver fang, there's no way you'll survive a main battle tank's gun ( an old ww2 sherman'll be at least 75mm, never mind modern Tanks) which is why the most important stat in the game is resources.

But it's rather unreasonable to get to that high point of soak, few characters are going to catch them all.
If you treated armour fairly(IE ignore the rules in the book completely, or at least double protection and remove the penalty for most things) maybe you could -super strength something extra thick.

But, in the context of vampire, big guns will get the job done: fortitude is a big investment and there's few other -more soak- powers ( also big investments).

No, 20mm cannons don't get anywhere outside of the low-mid teens for damage (12.7mm only does about 10-12 dice, for reference). 100mm tank cannons do 20 dice of damage, getting 20 more millimeters gets you another ten dice of damage, and common bombs dropped from attack aircraft do about 40 dice. M20 goes into more depth, but its heavy machine gun and 30mm cannon damage seem to be swapped (the former does 16 dice, the latter 12; easy enough to swap them, though it was an odd oversight).

Logarithmic progression is weird. At any rate, Mokole can become literally as large as Shin Gojira (and it won't even require Gnosis 10), so the stings of ants and wasps with HEAT and APFSDSDU rounds are likely of far less concern to them, not that the rules were prepared for this turnabout allowance in Archid Form construction.

[The Jack]

If you base damage for other weapons on the following given in the books:
4-9mm
5- .45,
6- .44 magnum
7- 5.56nato or 7.62x39

Then a 20mm gun is going to do near 20 dice of damage.
The Rifle doing 8 damage is an outlier; in some books they'll give a big bullet and in others they'll put in a .223, but rifles IRL come in a crazy range of calibers for hunting differnt sized beasts or otherwise serving a range of purposes, so in keeping with what ive got as 4, 5,6 and 7

10- 308 (7.62 nato, very common modern military round)
12- 30-06 (most ww2 rifle rounds are around here. This one's great for hunting most animals)
14- .338 lapua magnum/ 375 winchester. ( good for bears and the minimum you'd want in africa
16- .50bmg and elephant guns.

Humans are the real monsters.

[SaurOps]

If you base damage for other weapons on the following given in the books:
4-9mm
5- .45,
6- .44 magnum
7- 5.56nato or 7.62x39

Then a 20mm gun is going to do near 20 dice of damage.

No, it wouldn't. Because it doesn't. Even if you shifted the 100mm up a bit to close the gap with the 120mm guns, that would just make smaller-bore tank guns take its place - the 20mm to 30mm cannon range wouldn't change.

The Rifle doing 8 damage is an outlier; in some books they'll give a big bullet and in others they'll put in a .223, but rifles IRL come in a crazy range of calibers for hunting differnt sized beasts or otherwise serving a range of purposes, so in keeping with what ive got as 4, 5,6 and 7

Not just rifles, but lighter-end machine guns as well. Small arms and lighter cannons are going to be highly dependent on getting more attack successes.

10- 308 (7.62 nato, very common modern military round)
12- 30-06 (most ww2 rifle rounds are around here. This one's great for hunting most animals)
14- .338 lapua magnum/ 375 winchester. ( good for bears and the minimum you'd want in africa
16- .50bmg and elephant guns.

Humans are the real monsters.

No, getting more successes on attack rolls (so, I guess, Dexterity?) is the real monster. At least, until you get the volume in a round to pack in way more high explosive filler. Guns aren't totems of instant death - even higher end human portable stuff is really deadly because of its firing rate, not the power of a single round.

[The Jack]

That strikes me as an argument for game design rather than the reality. We make guns for purposes, and it just so happens that to kill or destroy something efficiently is a common purpose. From a game play mechanic, it might seem very unfair that a mook with a big gun can end your Get elder/salubri methuselah you've minmaxed for endurance, but from an RP standpoint, if you go hunting for a big bear, and the storyteller refuses you a rifle that'll kill a bear in the optimal amount of shots (unless you've got at least an eight dice pool and an aimed shot) Then thats gonna suck for roleplay.
Granted, you could probably put the cannons with some soak reduction rather than just straight and ultra lethal damage,