Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XV: You Must Be THIS Tall To Witness The Grimdark

[LCP]

If you've written a good character, and he's male...Great. I love good characters.
If you've written a good character, and she's female. What changed? Did making your character arbitrarily female make the story better somehow?

Literally asking X chromosomes to justify their existence. I hope you go around asking women in real life why they are 'arbitrarily female' also.

[bluntpencil]

Redoing the very dated Cadian miniatures, with a few female heads in the box would probably be enough for me.

That being said, I've a few Victoria and Artel W female Guard, and they're awesome.

[Cheesegear]

Literally asking X chromosomes to justify their existence.

That's not even close to what I said. An author chooses the gender of their characters.
If given the choice to make a fictional character...What gender is better? How do you decide to make your character male or female if it doesn't make a difference to the story? Do you flip a coin?
What happens if you flip heads 10 times in a row, where heads = male? Is your story now bad? Why?

[LansXero]

Literally asking X chromosomes to justify their existence. I hope you go around asking women in real life why they are 'arbitrarily female' also.

I dont think thats it. 'arbitrarily female' is likely to refer to a character with very little interaction or relevance (like an ensign your protagonist greets in passing, or a random schmuck that gets blown up in two paragraphs) who you just make female to meet some number quota. I dont think anyone wants that to be the norm, as in, to just girl-wash random nonames to go 'see? this book features 17 girls and 17 guys, its so representative guyz'.

Redoing the very dated Cadian miniatures, with a few female heads in the box would probably be enough for me.

Id be all for upgrade kits for guard like space marine chapters get. Thats a very reasonable request and I hope many people put it that way in the survery; its much more likely to happen and as such much more valuable feedback than vaguely asking for 'diversity' or 'representation'.

[bluntpencil]

Id be all for upgrade kits for guard like space marine chapters get. Thats a very reasonable request and I hope many people put it that way in the survery; its much more likely to happen and as such much more valuable feedback than vaguely asking for 'diversity' or 'representation'.

I might be wrong, but I believe Forge World have an upgrade kit for Sigmarines that's entirely female heads... hmm... let me check...

Yes! A few extra heads in the Cadian box would help keep me happy, maybe with more in the future. Interestingly, even at this scale, it seems that there is more than one ethnicity here, too. More of this, except not extortionate Forge World. A few Guard heads - or full face helmet options - please!

https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-FR/S...Upgrade-2-2019

[LCP]

Do you flip a coin?

As someone who has to make up a lot of minor characters on the fly for the WFRP campaign I GM, yes, that's exactly what I do. If I just defaulted to male any time that a character's femininity did not bear heavily on their role in the story then I would end up with a 90% male world, naturally presenting itself as a boy's club where women have to be exceptional (and also, by these rules, emphatically feminine in some way) to have a place.

EDIT: And I should add to this point, 'I'm sticking to men so that I can write what I know' is an incredibly bad excuse for defaulting to male. A writer who claims they can't write women because they don't understand their viewpoint, but is perfectly happy writing aliens and genetically-engineered spacefaring super-soldiers, sounds like a really bad writer (and one with no will towards self-improvement in their craft either). Perhaps they should try a different career.

What happens if you flip heads 10 times in a row, where heads = male? Is your story now bad? Why?

Then you've got 10 male characters.

If you want to say that's how 40K ended up with its current gender ratio of named characters... well then I have some lottery tickets to sell you.

[Silverraptor]

Hey, with a whole bunch of planets solely existing for the purpose of churning out babies for the Guard, I'm surprised that nobody written a story about a planet that's a 100% adult women breeding farm, and when the male children turn 16/18/whatever, they get sent off to die. There's half a dozen stories I can think up off the top of my head on that hypothetical planet which I just made up. Those would be stories where gender absolutely does matter, making my characters male absolutely would change the story.

The first thought to my mind is if a genestealer gets to one of those worlds. That would be a hell of a story with the Ordo Xenos trying to see if they can save the planet or if they'd have to resort to extermanatus!

[Cheesegear]

Then you've got 10 male characters.

Lord of the Rings has 9 males in it as the main characters. The Hobbit has...In fact, I can't remember any females in The Hobbit, not even secondary characters.
Those are good stories, right?

If you want to say that's how 40K ended up with its current gender ratio of named characters... well then I have some lottery tickets to sell you.

As has already been stated, the gender ratio in 40K is by either
a) Writers defaulting to their own gender (i.e; Bad writers writing bad), and/or
b) Writers writing for their audience (i.e; Toxic masculinity was a Thing last year around this time, even).

If Black Library's audience is changing, or BL is changing their writing to target a new audience...More power to 'em. Hope it works out. If BL's writers are getting better, insofar as they can write outside their own demographic identity...Even more better.

'I'm sticking to men so that I can write what I know' is an incredibly bad excuse for defaulting to male

Yes. It is. Hence why I've been asking for quality. Not quantity.

[PhoenixPhyre]

Also, the faces are not entirely the issue. The spoiled facial expressions go from 'pissed off' to 'steroid rage' so even calm looking or snarky smile faces would be a nice addition.

From what I can tell as a casual outsider, that's the norm for everyone in the models. Not just women. Heck, even the giant robots look pissed.

[LCP]

Lord of the Rings has 9 males in it. The Hobbit has...In fact, I can't remember any females in The Hobbit, not even secondary characters.
Those are good stories, right?

Lord of the Rings was published in 1954. I don't analyse the literary worth of e.g. Rudyard Kipling based on his colonialism and racism; similarly I don't judge works being published today by the standards of the 1950s. You're eliding good storytelling with moral good, which is a difference I think most primary school children can understand.

[Drasius]

That's literally what I said to start this conversation...
The answer is 'No'. People don't read books novels. That's why this conversation is the way it is.
Well, to be fair I started the conversation about non-Space Marine centric stories. Which, again, we're being given.

BL is giving people what they want, and they're not buying it. In the BCS, people are demanding more female stories...Okay. What has GW been doing for the last year (and a half)? Why are people asking for what they've already been given? I'm confused. By definition, a female-centric story will also probably not be about Space Marines, either.

Because what people want and what they ask for aren't the same thing more often than not. Doubly so for some, who seem to want to be offended on behalf of someone, anyone else for reasons I have never been able to fathom.

If anyone wants to listen to a pretty cool story, get yourself a copy of Our Martyed Lady where Celestine and Greyfax go on an adventure. The first bit is the best bit, but the whole thing is pretty good overall. The Eye of Night / Hand of Darkness combo is also pretty good involving the same best frenemies. The agents of the throne stories by John French are good, but it's also the exact same inquisitor stories we've all read a thousand times over. Titan's Bane is one of the better Audio dramas they've made (and easily the best ending) and it's about a female commander of an Octoblade and her motley crew of misfits. Corsair: Face of the Void is a rather neat story of a rogue trader captain (female) and her crew of oddballs that also gets a hearty stamp of approval and a thorough recommendation. Assassinorium: Empreor's Judgement is the story behind the Execution force boxed set, and is definitely worth a listen and has a lot of focus on the Calidus.

I remember going through a list of books with female leads a while back the last time this came up (and it really wasn't that long ago IIRC), but I don't remember mentioning audiodramas (and they're pretty good, not at all what I was expecting when I first listened to one many years ago now). Hopefully, some will make the effort to beg/borrow/buy a copy of at least one of these if they really are that keen on good stories with females in leading roles. Me, I just like 'em 'cause they're good stories.

Hey now, take away the boob plate, iconic as it might be, and give me SOME pretty heads and I'd be happy. 2 military girls (friends of my father, who is a soldier himself) are amongst the best looking women I've met, ever. Also met plenty of great looking cops, but I think thats less unusual?

Also, the faces are not entirely the issue. The spoiled facial expressions go from 'pissed off' to 'steroid rage' so even calm looking or snarky smile faces would be a nice addition.

And if you were to look at said hotties when they're wearing full combat gear from the top of a 20 or 30 story building when they're on the ground (ala roughly the height from which you'd view most minis when playing), could you identify if they were female or not? Also, ask your dad if he thinks that a fully kitted up soldier looks much different if they're female or not at a range of ~30 metres - I'd wager he'll say they look close-as-makes-no-difference the same unless you really look for it.

[Drasius]

From what I can tell as a casual outsider, that's the norm for everyone in the models. Not just women. Heck, even the giant robots look pissed.

Probably something to do with them all being posed and sculpted as though they're in the middle of a battle with the fate of [race] in their hands. I'm going to say that it's probably perfectly normal to have a fair bit of anger happening when you're getting shot at and a bunch of your friends/squaddies have just been atomised.

Lord of the Rings was published in 1954. I don't analyse the literary worth of e.g. Rudyard Kipling based on his colonialism and racism; similarly I don't judge works being published today by the standards of the 1950s. You're eliding good storytelling with moral good, which is a difference I think most primary school children can understand.

And the 40k setting was laid down ~32 years ago by people who grew up in the 50's, yet you're judging it by today's standards.

You're also deliberately taking the view that others are anti-female when that's clearly (to me, anyway) not the point that was being made.

[Cheesegear]

Let's recap before someone (probably me) says something dumb because two or three people are minconstructing what I'm saying and straw manning me;

'More women in 40K'. Don't think there's anyone who disagrees. Our reasons for inclusion might diverge. But the end result is the same. There's even a sweaty dude in the corner who really wants Slaanesh models to come back. No, not the new ones. The old ones. You know the guy. Why does he want more females in 40K? ...You know what. Ignore that guy. He'll ruin everything.

My point was...Since the last Big Community Survey in 2018 - and actually a little bit before then - Black Library has been doing just that. There was a whole thing about toxic masculinity and GW is already on the way to fixing it. People are asking for what they're already being given. And, for those of you in the audience chasing non-Space Marine stories...Welp, females can't be Space Marines. So that's two birds with one stone.

Why aren't you reading books?
1. Quality. Sturgeon's Law comes into effect real hard when you're dealing with Black Library. Doesn't matter how many females BL writes, if 90% of them are terrible and make you mad and want to throw your book into the fire.
2. Advertising. Apparently, Black Library is really **** at advertising. Even if BL does write a female character - like, y'know, exactly like they've been doing - how are you going to know unless you go inside a brick-and-mortar Warhammer store? Black Library is their own publishing company, too. So they even avoid Amazon when they can. How does anyone even discover a Black Libaray novel anymore? ...I literally don't know.
(Me, personally, I check the website once or twice a month to see if there's anything new that doesn't look like it sucks)
3. Word-of-mouth. Nobody reads books (probably for one of the above two), so nobody reads books...And because this is Black Library, if someone has read it, 9/10 times, Go To 1.

Quantity of female characters doesn't seem to be changing anything. GW/BL is doing exactly that, and people still don't even know, a year after they asked the last time.

Is it quantity you want, or quality?
Because if books were better written, they'd have better reviews, they'd draw more readers, etc. And thus, you would know about them.

[Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll]

Cheesegear is conflating two different arguments when he says "it's a double standard."

There's two reasons to have a character be a certain gender. First, is there a story, character, plot, thematic reason that requires them to be a certain gender? Then make them that gender. While it's suspect if ALL your important characters are male, that might be a product of the genre that you're writing. That's not really at issue here. If the answer to the above question is "no", THAT'S what people mean when they ask "does gender of the character matter".

What Cheesegear seems to be saying is that ALL possible considerations for gender MUST fall into the above question. That's not true. The ability for readers to see themselves in media is important. It's also good marketing: if enough of a genre or series does it and gets a reputation for doing it well, the readership pool increases. Avoiding an unnecessary bro-fest in fantasy and sci-fi (being specifically bro-fest-y genres without good reason for being bro-fest-y) is of value. This is not a double standard, Cheesegear. It's a new level of analysis. We've past the point where it doesn't matter to the BOOK, and we're at the point where we ask if it matters to the AUDIENCE, or to the well-being of the genre. These are two different questions.

Now these two questions also feed into each other. If you find that there's pressing plot, character, etc reasons for EVERY character to be a certain gender, ask yourself why that is? Could those reasons or relationships been changed to allow for more gender representation? The answer is yes more often than you'd think.

If you don't end up with a roughly even split for side-characters for whom there's no plot, character or thematic reason to have their gender one way or another, it's due to (often but not always unconscious) sexist bias, one way or another. The 50/50 coin flip rule is for those of us who are aware of that bias and want to try to counteract it.

A bias like "a great character is male, great... a great character is female, why did you make her female?" is harmful to your writing and your ability to enjoy female characters. It assumes that I wrote a great character and then made them female, while if the character was male that was just part and parcel of being a "great character" and needs no justification. Why should a character being female need a reason, if their being male doesn't?

Other than that point, I agree with you. BL is doing good, but people ASSUME they're not doing good because people only care about Tabletop, which is still pretty bad (and a large reason why I can convince my girlfriend to play Sigmar but not 40k).

[bluntpencil]

And the 40k setting was laid down ~32 years ago by people who grew up in the 50's, yet you're judging it by today's standards.

This is precisely why I don't get upset about there being no female Space Marines - however, expecting other female characters, in stories written today, is reasonably fair.

But... I care more about the miniatures, like I said. The 40K RPGs do a good job of including female characters, and I'd like that to be reflected on the table.

[LCP]

And the 40k setting was laid down ~32 years ago by people who grew up in the 50's, yet you're judging it by today's standards.

It's a living work which gets retconned and overhaulled on a timescale of once every few years. I'll judge the original Rogue Trader book by the standards of the 80s and the current setting by the standards of today.

You're also deliberately taking the view that others are anti-female when that's clearly (to me, anyway) not the point that was being made.

I think that's a judgement that we're all free to make for ourselves from the evidence before us.

[Cheesegear]

First, is there a story, character, plot, thematic reason that requires them to be a certain gender? Then make them that gender.

So far, so good.

If you don't end up with a roughly even split for side-characters for whom there's no plot, character or thematic reason to have their gender one way or another, it's due to (often but not always unconscious) sexist bias, one way or another. The 50/50 coin flip rule is for those of us who are aware of that bias and want to try to counteract it.

As someone who has to make up a lot of minor characters on the fly for the WFRP campaign I GM, yes, [I flip a coin].

Wait. That is a thing? I was making a joke. But okay. Guess I'll do that that then. I'm pretty sure I'm at about 3:1 male-to-female on my 'random characters I have to make up on the spot'. But I guess I'll roll a dice now.

A bias like "a great character is male, great... a great character is female, why did you make her female?" is harmful to your writing and your ability to enjoy female characters. It assumes that I wrote a great character and then made them female, while if the character was male that was just part and parcel of being a "great character" and needs no justification. Why should a character being female need a reason, if their being male doesn't?

I'm just going to ignore this because that wasn't my point.

[Ionbound]

I think what you're missing, Cheesegear, is the idea that the male character is the default which is, for better or worse, a fact of our society. As such, there isn't a need to return to the default because it is such a thing; What is expected. Whereas when someone successfully challenges a cultural and artistic default, especially successfully, such things should be celebrated and encouraged.

[Cheesegear]

I think what you're missing, Cheesegear, is the idea that the male character is the default which is, for better or worse, a fact of our society.

No it isn't. It's the default for bad writers of either gender to default to their own gender, especially if they're writing for an (bad) audience of the same gender.
If you're a bad writer attempting to write for both gendered audiences, you're going to run into some problems. Black Library, unfortunately, doesn't have the best writers.

I'll refer you to post #1303.

[Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll]

It wasn't what you THOUGHT your point was, but it's what you said. You identified two scenarios: one in which a great character was male, and one in which a great character was female. You expressed concern that the female great character was female, and said you would want to know why the decision was made, but accepted the male character's gender without issue.

I don't understand what point you were trying to make. The only point I can see here is that female characters must have their existence justified, male characters don't.

(obviously talking about the sci-fi and fantasy context primarily, other genres have other issues. One of these genres issues is that their writers are almost entirely male, but that's a broader issue that we've talked about elsewhere).

And it's NOT default for female writers to write all-female books. I find it difficult to think of female-written sci-fi and fantasy books that have similar gender ratios to male-written sci-fi and fantasy, let alone all-female characters or only token male characters. Most of the female-written sci-fi and fantasy novels I've read recently still have more men than women, though not at the ridiculous levels we're discussing.

(Again caveat that BL has been doing pretty good at this so we're arguing mostly in the theoretical and the broader genre).

[Avaris]

Have you looked at females in full battle gear? You generally have to get pretty close to tell that they're not blokes (which is of course a running joke in the armed forces). At tabletop scale, without flanderising the mini, it's going to be real difficult to say if your minis are one or the other unless you go with the Catachan style, in which case, I'm sure we'd end up with a different argument about what it acceptable. Personally, I dislike that people are asking for "pretty" heads for SoB since they're a fighting force, not a model group, but hey, different strokes for different folks and all that.

I'm also not sure what fluff needs to change for you to be happy? Where in the fluff is there a restriction on the models being female outside of marines (and certain knight houses, after they specifically changed that bit of fluff with the second codex)?

Model wise, I'd be happy with when the guard (or indeed, any range) get redesigned there are some with more feminine facial features, and some more explicitly female character models. The recent Genestealer CUlts range is an example of the sort of thing I applaud. As you say, in armour they look very similar, so it doesn't need much work beyond a headswap or so. The Stormcast range is also pretty good for this.

Fluff wise, it's less that I want a fundamental change, more about how it is used and realised. I'd like more active use of women in things like codex text, rather than them being just there in theory. A good example of this working well is comparing the 8th ed knight codex with previous ones: as you highlight, the old knight codex had explicitly only sons, the new one has quoted female characters in various bits of text. The same is true of the Titanicus rulebook, which includes female princeps. It's like ad mech: in theory there is nothing stopping any of their units being female (originally), in practice there are no examples quoted anywhere that I am aware of. This means that those who do appear are seen as 'special' for being female when they should be part of the norm, with the other things they do being what makes them special.

I'd also like female space marines, but that's a whole different argument.

But as Cheesegear keeps highlighting, it's important to recognise that Black Library at least is making good steps in the right direction. My feedback in the customer survey thanked them for the progress they've made so far, and mad a call for more representation elsewhere, particularly in model ranges. That doesn't mean the progress made shouldn't be celebrated!

[Cheesegear]

It wasn't what you THOUGHT your point was, but it's what you said. You identified two scenarios: one in which a great character was male, and one in which a great character was female. You expressed concern that the female great character was female, and said you would want to know why the decision was made, but accepted the male character's gender without issue.

I made my character female, then. She's a good character.
For some reason, a relatively small portion of my audience demands a male character, instead. Would that make the story better, somehow?

Apparently I can make slightly more money if I make my character male. But then I run the risk of alienating my audience who likes the female characters and then lose way more money.
****. What should I do?

I don't understand what point you were trying to make. The only point I can see here is that female characters must have their existence justified, male characters don't.

In which case you forgot to apply the double-standard. Which I have done for you.
The idea that anyone should make their character a certain gender is...Bizarre. I understand that there is a limit though. Whilst a good story, Lord of the Rings is a sausage fest. But does too many sausages make it a bad story? No. As I've brought up twice now; Dr. Who, Supernatural, Sherlock. All dudes. Only Dr. Who has a female secondary character. Does this make their fandoms scream in rage? Not that I've seen. In fact I'm pretty sure that unless Tumblr is lying, their female audience members outweigh the male audience members.

Would Supernatural be a better show if one or both of the two boys, were girls?
...Well, I guess Wynonna Earp will tell us.
Would Wynonna Earp be a better show, if one or both of two sisters, were boys?

****. I fell into the loop.

Most of the female-written sci-fi and fantasy novels I've read recently...

Well then I only have three questions...

Were those novels any good? If yes,
What are they called, who by? Do they come in eBook format?

[LansXero]

I think what you're missing, Cheesegear, is the idea that the male character is the default which is, for better or worse, a fact of our society. As such, there isn't a need to return to the default because it is such a thing; What is expected. Whereas when someone successfully challenges a cultural and artistic default, especially successfully, such things should be celebrated and encouraged.

So, as long as it challenges a default, even if it does so unsuccesfully (because otherwise why specially if succesful) it has to be 'celebrated'? Is the standard for good stories how non-conforming they are? If so, teen fanfiction would be the undisputable top of the literary world.

Good writing is good writing, gender or representation play no real factor in the objective quality of the prose, or on how well structured the narrative is, etc. Now, the marketability of said writing is sure affected, but thats like saying that because branded goods sell better, branding automatically makes them better. As anyone will tell you, branded stuff breaks down or is trash just as often as generic things. Because marketing concerns (or appeals to the audience) have no relevance to the quality of something, just how much of it sells.

And it's NOT default for female writers to write all-female books. I find it difficult to think of female-written sci-fi and fantasy books that have similar gender ratios to male-written sci-fi and fantasy, let alone all-female characters or only token male characters.

Thats because those are not male characters, those are caricatures of male power fantasies. Most fantasy / tie-in fiction only ever brushes masculinity slightly, focusing on the caricature that characters in the genre are, and working through their 2-dimensional cardboard cutouts. Thats why its dribble most of the time, and why genuinely well written male characters are few and far in between. saying 'its what you wanted to be as a kid! its your power fantasy! it represents you!" reduces males as much as saying books about cooking, maternity and being a wife represent the full spectrum of being a woman. Yeah, its offensive, but it goes both ways.

And if you were to look at said hotties when they're wearing full combat gear from the top of a 20 or 30 story building when they're on the ground (ala roughly the height from which you'd view most minis when playing), could you identify if they were female or not? Also, ask your dad if he thinks that a fully kitted up soldier looks much different if they're female or not at a range of ~30 metres - I'd wager he'll say they look close-as-makes-no-difference the same unless you really look for it.

Full camo netting and face paint? I couldnt tell either apart from a plant, so I get what you are saying. But sororitas armor is already far from any practical battle gear. They wear freaking high heels, boob plate, armored corsets and go without a helmet. So I think its already a bit too late to ask for practical get up or focus on how much it resembles actual military personnel.


Also and less related, the large majority of soldiers in my country serve support roles, not frontline roles. Its a tradition that goes way back to the many wars we've fought (and lost) since colonial times, from when a soldier's wife would be right there with him providing ammo, making food and tending to his wounds. So military women arent rare, but they are often with non-combat personnel, so they do look distinctly female, even when deployed.

[Cheesegear]

Thats because those are not male characters, those are caricatures of male power fantasies.

I asked it before; What even is a female power fantasy? I don't watch those shows. I don't read those books. I have no idea what that looks like.
Surprisingly, I never was a 10 year-old girl.

What is the female power fantasy that Black Library writes? Has it already been written?

[Forum Explorer]

2. Advertising. Apparently, Black Library is really **** at advertising. Even if BL does write a female character - like, y'know, exactly like they've been doing - how are you going to know unless you go inside a brick-and-mortar Warhammer store? Black Library is their own publishing company, too. So they even avoid Amazon when they can. How does anyone even discover a Black Libaray novel anymore? ...I literally don't know.

Very much this. Not entirely advertising, but in making those books available. I don't like my local GW, I much prefer my favorite FLGS. They have some Warhammer books. But last I checked, they didn't have Honorbound (and yes, I looked for it.) My local bookstores have a Warhammer section, but it's not that complete either.


Anyways, Cheesegear, I feel it's not so much a question for the auidence as it is for the authors. When an author is writing a book they should look at their characters and ask themselves 'why are all of my characters male?' Or 'why do all of my female characters fall into stereotypes'.

It's not that authors should have a strict 50-50 gender ratio, it's that they should try and catch their own bias, because it's a very common one, and that by overcoming it, they can likely become better writers, and maybe even better people too.


As for what a female power fantasy is? It's not much different. Being powerful, important, strong, and even deadly. I'd say the most common difference is the desire to show the boys that they are just as good or better than them.

[Cikomyr]

I remember an RPG game I played using the Scion system. The GM wanted us to experience massive powers, so he had us starting as Inquisitor, and it would eventually be revealed that we were hidden Primarchs.

Completely lore breaking, but it was fun to create our own spins on Space Marine Legions. Sometimes, it's just fun to have a blast with silly interpretation of the overall lore.

Another player was a woman, so she had her own lore-breaking legion of Assassin Astartes. My custom legion was recruiting from older candidates than the standard in the Astartes, so they were physically underpowered. But I recruited only IG young men who had proven themselves as courageous leaders on the battlefield and were on the verge of dying.

All silly stuff, but makes you wonder what about the lore is truly sacred, and what's just overall convenience.

[LansXero]

All silly stuff, but makes you wonder what about the lore is truly sacred, and what's just overall convenience.

Everyone's got their bits of headcanon. It doesnt mean we'll be writing novels with it anytime soon though, or that they'd make good stories. For those of us who'd like to read more of what 40k / 30k already is, its good for the sake of narrative consistency and a steady theme.

[Cikomyr]

Everyone's got their bits of headcanon. It doesnt mean we'll be writing novels with it anytime soon though, or that they'd make good stories. For those of us who'd like to read more of what 40k / 30k already is, its good for the sake of narrative consistency and a steady theme.

The lore is filled to the brim with self contradicting data points anyway. It's not like consistency has actually has happened across all books, video games and other media of WH40K.

Hell, even source books contradicts each others.

[LansXero]

So the glass is cracking, lets just hit it with a hammer, what does it matter anyways?

Well, thats your choice, but I'd rather they fixed or tried to reduce those contradictions than going 'well none of it matters its all made up anyways, female primarchs for everyone!"

[Cikomyr]

So the glass is cracking, lets just hit it with a hammer, what does it matter anyways?

Well, thats your choice, but I'd rather they fixed or tried to reduce those contradictions than going 'well none of it matters its all made up anyways, female primarchs for everyone!"

The Guard and the Navy have always been split since the Heresy. Until they weren't and now they are the Astra Militarum.

Astartes were the pinnacle of soldier engineering technology. Until they weren't.

Taus were nice guys, until they weren't.

Women can't be Space Marine. Until they won't. Start soft; make it a woman who has a XY chromosome pair, and claim this is why it happened. And then just slowly expand the lore to make good stories, and don't let the limitations of yesteryear stop you.