OOTS #1168 - The Discussion Thread

[Doug Lampert]

Makes sense. One barrier to dispel any magic that could control a council member, a second barrier that prevents casting magic and other rules breaking outright and enough space in between in case you need to do something sneaky-like the guards need to nuke some fool who tries to attack the council.
Add a feature that lets only dwarves pass and you have a pretty good security system.

For something like the current situation to happen so many things had to go wrong (a vote actually important enough to manipulate plus a enemy with a)insider information, b)access to the right agents to infiltrate and c) enough power to take out the security and d) the means to control a majority of the council) that additional security measures probably wouldn't have helped.

Yep, even the barriers that exist almost certainly date back to the distant past when the council actually mattered.

Given how unimportant the council is considered, even by its members, the defenses are implausibly TOUGH if anything is off about this.

With defenses this good, why didn't someone currently important (like the parliament) take over the council of clans meeting area for themselves and make the council meet in a closet somewhere?

The actual realism/verisimilitude question shouldn't be, "Why are the defenses so porous?", it should be, "Why are the defenses anything more than the personal bodyguards that the attendees brought? What in the world made someone decide to give an archaic and unimportant group defenses like that?"

Obviously, because without the defenses, the story wouldn't work right, but the problem has never been that the defenses aren't as good as they should be.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Yeah, that Heimdall, what a bastard.

He's not the one saying throw the dwarves to Hel. He thinks all the souls will go to their aligned plane for normal afterlife processing.

Makes you wonder just how widespread the knowledge of the bet is with the other gods.

[Wowlock]

If the fate of the world wasn't at stake, I would've said ''let them die out of their own idiocy''.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

He's not the one saying throw the dwarves to Hel. He thinks all the souls will go to their aligned plane for normal afterlife processing.

No, he is saying they'll go to their (the gods') respective realms. Which for dwarves is Hel's.

Makes you wonder just how widespread the knowledge of the bet is with the other gods.

That's the charicative way to look at it. I think he knows about the bet, and just doesn't care, since presumably not many dwarves worhip him. And he has not done the math, so he doesn't realise just how much power that'll give Hel, which is the only thing that makes him hesitate.

In any case, I could say similar things about a bunch of other gods. My broader point is that pining this all on Dvalin is a bit much, given how many other full gods and demigods had the chance to fix this and did not. The only one that comes out looking half-decent is Hermod.

Grey Wolf

[gerryq]

If slightly more than 1/2 the council is dominated, how is a resolution to delay going to pass at all?

That said, this is kind of weird, that the council is just going along with it.

They could filibuster, especially if the chairman is undominated.

[Zhorn]

Lawful stupid at its finest

[Ganbatte]

............So, they really are just idiots.

As much as I like being proven correct in my theories... ugh.

[zimmerwald1915]

To zimmerwald's point, this is less about actual bureaucracy and more about a bureaucratic mindset; i.e. an undue and unwarranted faith in process.

That's still not a bureaucratic mindset, it's a parliamentary-proceduralist mindset. Or proceduralist for short.

[Ghosty]

Plus, the Alignment restrictions are MURDER. I know this one guy, multi-classed as a Lawyer/Paladin. I have no idea how he reconciled those behavioral restrictions. Oddly, if you know how to roleplay, it's a fairly good build, espesiclaly since it can treat legal documents as holy items: You haven't lived until you've killed a lich using a copy of the 1990 California Tax Code.

Did he drop it on him? Did opening summon demons from the Board of Equalization to do the tormenting for him?

[Rogar Demonblud]

Did he drop it on him? Did opening summon demons from the Board of Equalization to do the tormenting for him?

Don't be silly. Dropping the California Tax Code is an Extinction Level Event waiting to happen.

[Ghosty]

Don't be silly. Dropping the California Tax Code is an Extinction Level Event waiting to happen.

So many possible jokes in this thread run afoul of the no current events/no politics rule.

The I.R.C. is worse, FWIW. And then there are all of the Treasury Regs, and letters from the Commissioner trying to explain what they meant....

He could've drowned the lich in paper, if liches needed to breath.

[Rogar Demonblud]

With defenses this good, why didn't someone currently important (like the parliament) take over the council of clans meeting area for themselves and make the council meet in a closet somewhere?

Why would the Parliament leave the capital to work in this backrocks town?

Really, the only flaw in the defenses is that nobody considered a dwarf vampire a serious possibility. Otherwise, orange layer blocks non-dwarves and strips away spells, guards layer beats up anyone trying to cast spells on people (while still allowing a space for attendees to negotiate things not allowed inside), while the blue layer lays a smackdown on anyone not following the law.

[Morty]

A concentrated attack by a group of dwarven vampires that includes clerics and tries to sway the Council's vote to very literally end the world isn't really a scenario anyone can be blamed for not forseeing.

[Peelee]

Why would the Parliament leave the capital to work in this backrocks town?

Maybe Firmanement has more funkadelics.

[Kareeah_Indaga]

I actually want to play this now. A Lawyer/Paladin: sharp suit, sharp wits, sharp sword.

My first thought on reading this was 'this must be what Daredevil's D&D class is.'

[D.One]

That's still not a bureaucratic mindset, it's a parliamentary-proceduralist mindset. Or proceduralist for short.

Yeah, bureaucracy as a general term keeps getting a level of hatred that is kind of undeserved when you consider what the original administrative model intended. The whole idea of having defined procedures to do things revolves around the concept of "we have procedures pre-made, so we will do things in a more efficient way, and in a way that is transparent to everyone". Of course, there are some differences beetween the idea and the way she's implemented in many places...

That's the charicative way to look at it. I think he knows about the bet, and just doesn't care, since presumably not many dwarves worhip him. And he has not done the math, so he doesn't realise just how much power that'll give Hel, which is the only thing that makes him hesitate.

In any case, I could say similar things about a bunch of other gods. My broader point is that pining this all on Dvalin is a bit much, given how many other full gods and demigods had the chance to fix this and did not. The only one that comes out looking half-decent is Hermod.

Grey Wolf

Yeah, people keep taking on Dvalin and forget that many other gods voted YES, some for reasons way worse than "asking the dwarves to decide". (I'm looking at you, "bored of this world" Njord)

I actually want to play this now. A Lawyer/Paladin: sharp suit, sharp wits, sharp sword.

But Paladins need to be Good in 3.5, isn't it?

[kivzirrum]

This comic... this was funny. Depressingly resonant, but very funny.

I recommend the History of Rome podcast to find a clear demonstration of how I could not disagree more with the above statement.

A+ recommendation. Just discovered that podcast about five months ago, and it's absolutely a brilliant survey of Roman history. Love it!

[Peelee]

Yeah, bureaucracy as a general term keeps getting a level of hatred that is kind of undeserved when you consider what the original administrative model intended. The whole idea of having defined procedures to do things revolves around the concept of "we have procedures pre-made, so we will do things in a more efficient way, and in a way that is transparent to everyone". Of course, there are some differences beetween the idea and the way she's implemented in many places...

That is technically correct. The best kind of correct! You have been promoted to Bureaucrat Grade 37.

[Kareeah_Indaga]

But Paladins need to be Good in 3.5, isn't it?

Get your levels in Lawyer first, + Helm of Opposite Alignment = DONE!

[Alexandrite]

{scrubbed}

[understatement]

Unspoken plan guarantee.

Works like a charm.

[kivzirrum]

That's still not a bureaucratic mindset, it's a parliamentary-proceduralist mindset. Or proceduralist for short.

Genuine question, devoid of snark--is there a reason to quibble over this, beyond pedantry?

Again, I don't mean anything rude by this--I myself am a fan of well-placed pedantry. I'm just curious as to your thoughts on that

[Sir_Norbert]

............So, they really are just idiots.

As much as I like being proven correct in my theories... ugh.

No, they're just not willing to take risks, which is a perfectly understandable reaction.

The vampire is right there in the room, and they're afraid that if they speak up they will be the next targets. So they pretend they haven't noticed anything.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

With defenses this good, why didn't someone currently important (like the parliament) take over the council of clans meeting area for themselves and make the council meet in a closet somewhere?

Because the place only fits ~14 people. And current parliament might actually include non-dwarfs, as observers, allies, visitors, actual elected members, etc.

"Why are the defenses so porous?", it should be, "Why are the defenses anything more than the personal bodyguards that the attendees brought? What in the world made someone decide to give an archaic and unimportant group defenses like that?"

Presumably the defences were set up back when the council did matter.

Grey Wolf

[dtilque]

I actually want to play this now. A Lawyer/Paladin: sharp suit, sharp wits, sharp sword.

Jones or Rodriguez? Well, they have the sharp suits, anyway.

Won't happen, because even if they formed a legally recognized clan, they don't have admittance here. This is the dwarf equivalent of the Mayflower Society: if you are not a direct descendant of the original clans, you don't count. Another reason why the rest of the dwarves sidelined them.

Not going to ask for a cite on this, because I'm fairly certain there is none. You're reading a lot into the comic that isn't there explicitly. I'll just say, let's wait and see.

[Kareeah_Indaga]

The vampire is right there in the room, and they're afraid that if they speak up they will be the next targets. So they pretend they haven't noticed anything.

Issue with this is they're in a room with a superspell protecting them against law-breaking.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Issue with this is they're in a room with a superspell protecting them against law-breaking.

A room they have to leave sooner or later. And they don't know there is help coming. They may even be aware of what has happened to their bodyguards.

If you are going to take the obvious rule-of-funny moment seriously, then the problem here is not why they shut this proposal down. It's why the bearded guy dared to suggest it in the first place.

Grey Wolf

[Jasdoif]

Can everyone stop abusing this term?

We don't have time to discuss this in committee!

[Peelee]

We don't have time to discuss this in committee!

I am not a committee!

[St Fan]

Could be a knowledge check of some sort is necessary to know what the swirly eyes mean. Maybe Knowledge [Religion], since the cleric-but-not-the-high-priest of Dvalin is frowning, while everyone else thinks it's somewhat reasonable to defer investigation?

This doesn't explain why Orange Haired Council Member is smiling after, as Grey_Wolf_c notes, his motion doesn't proceed due to the lack of a second.

Knowledge [Arcana] seems more likely, now that I've looked. FWIW, pretty much everything I know about D&D rules comes from this forum.

Actually, noticing that someone is dominated is simply a DC 15 Sense Motive check. Meaning it can even be done untrained, with more than a 1 in 4 chance of succeeding, better with some Wisdom bonus.

The swirly eyes is just the in-comic way to illustrate the stiff, unnatural demeanor that goes along with any domination, giving enough hints to be recognized.


Unrelated - since it hasn't been mentioned yet in this thread, a little reminder: the blue barrier also stop sounds. So, the council members are likely unaware of the fight happening right in the next hall.