Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXIX: Miracle on 39th Thread

[LansXero]

What I've found, is that it's not the telling of 'get good' that puts people off. It's the inability to get good, that puts people off. I've said it time and time again; Losing isn't what makes losers feel bad.

Some people, yeah. Some are content to take their faction as far as it'll go. Like the guy who will always play RDW and nothing else, he know he loses post-sideboard or that Midrange Lifegain is the meta. But then, that 4-1 feels like a GP win, because of all the random wacky tech he sideboards himself. But for some, its totally sucky not being able to get the good stuff, be it because its priced out of your reach (hello FW Custodes) or because it doesnt exist in your faction.

This is why Doubles is our most popular format. Easier to get 1250 - 1500 viable points out of your codex than the full 2k, and allies matrix no longer matter so there is a lot more flexibility on what you can shore up your weaknesses with.

Finally, there is something to be said for 'lets git gud, together'. Comradership isnt all about back pats and coddling each other.

Ever tried telling a Necrons' player to get good? They can't. Unlike Grey Knights, there's not even any Allies to choose from. Once you have all the units you want out of your Necron Codex, that's it, you're done. If you're not good by then, you may as well change Faction. Don't want to change Faction? Well, looks like you're gonna quit, unless people in your meta deliberately cater to you and only you.

Ever tried telling a Space Marine player who has decided 'No Primaris Marines' ('cause that lets them use the same models that they've been using for 10 years, and what they really mean is 'I'm not buying new models') to get good? They can't. GW is slowly nerfing out small!Marines, and buffing in Big Bois. If you want to get good at Space Marines, buy new models (i.e; Ow my business model!).

Destroyers are also damn expensive so the Necron players we have are in a rough spot to get past their limitations. Still, melee-necrons are solid for small points / doubles, and well they do allright in KT. Short-marines are viable the same way, Devastator spam plus scouts, with BA for melee, done. Its not great, but its not the worst.

A conversation should look like this:

Get Good!
"...How?"
Well, you may have noticed that basically everyone outside the competitive cancer scene, plays Maelstrom. Which means that any net-list you've pulled from an ITC tournament is inherently flawed. You can't just castle up and win games. You actually have to move around the board, and build an army that can claim board control, and using a play-style that doesn't involve sitting in a corner of the board for three turns and rely on racking 12 Kill Points on Turn 1...'Cause in Maelstrom, that's not a thing.
"Ohhh...Now I get it."

As opposed to...

Get Good!
"Well I have no intention of self-improvement, it's you who should cater to me, always. Even when I build a poor army, and even when I make stupid mistakes like sending a Phobos Captain into Melee and trying to pretend it's just as good as a Smash Captain, you still have cater for my mistakes and, I dunno...Just let me make mistakes and make it so I can win games!"
Uhh...Why would I not capitalise on your mistakes and get a basically free Warlord kill? (Regardless of our respective army lists, running a Phobos Captain into Melee is simply a mistake something a Bad would do)
"Reeeee...."

So, yeah.
"I spent all this money on these models, and they suck and there's nothing I can do about it." is what makes people quit in my experience.

That little bolded bit out there makes a world of difference. I was always a fat kid, south americans are crazy in love with soccer. Should I ask them to slow down so I can actually catch the damn ball before passing out from being out of breath? Maybe I should ask for our fields to not be made out of fkin concrete, since you know falling into cement hurts like a bitch and happens all the time when you play? Or, perhaps, I could just try and play to my strengths, get to the back line, field length no longer matters I dont have to outrun the strikers just keep them from getting a clean shot, just push the ball out of the red zone. I dont have to outjump them, just make them mess up the headshot. Yes I was dealt a crappy hand, so I can go whine about it with the other shut-ins, or I can make the best out of it and find happyness on the relative success of it. Its a matter of perspective I guess, but since 'not being able to do stuff about it' is an every day reality for us, getting pissy about it in a game of all things is really alien to us.

I mean, look at Venezuela. A little corruption and the country goes up in flames. People flood the continent because they somehow cant make their country work anymore. Peruvians? We took 1 million % inflation to the chin in the 80s and the country is still there. Every single president we've had since 1985 is currently in jail or prosecuted. But we make do, we deal with it and move on. Guess we're just weird like that.

[Cheesegear]

This is why Doubles is our most popular format. Easier to get 1250 - 1500 viable points out of your codex than the full 2k, and allies matrix no longer matter so there is a lot more flexibility on what you can shore up your weaknesses with.

Still, melee-necrons are solid for small points / doubles...

I love my Necrons Doubles list. 11 Destroyers and 6 Wraiths. As long as my partner can spam Troops, we're all good.

[LeSwordfish]

Get Good!
"Well I have no intention of self-improvement, it's you who should cater to me, always. Even when I build a poor army, and even when I make stupid mistakes like sending a Phobos Captain into Melee and trying to pretend it's just as good as a Smash Captain, you still have cater for my mistakes and, I dunno...Just let me make mistakes and make it so I can win games!"
Uhh...Why would I not capitalise on your mistakes and get a basically free Warlord kill? (Regardless of our respective army lists, running a Phobos Captain into Melee is simply a mistake something a Bad would do)
"Reeeee...."

You keep throwing together this imaginary strawman noob to argue with and its really obnoxious.

[Forum Explorer]

Aren't you one of the people who struggled to win games in 6th/7th with Eldar? (Honest question, I remember we had a couple of people here say that and I could never figure out why).

No, I could win games, but because I refused to run jetbike Eldar, or at least, Jetbikes with scatter lasers (I'd use Shuirken Catapults) and similarly refused to run Wraithknights, I actually had more fair games and would lose matches to all sorts of things. But I'd still beat all sorts of things as well.

I love my Necrons Doubles list. 11 Destroyers and 6 Wraiths. As long as my partner can spam Troops, we're all good.

There is a Necron player in my meta who has just disavowed troops altogether. He says he only needs 6 CP because he only uses a couple of stratagems and the units he takes are just so effective they can just kill anything off of whatever objective he needs to take.

[Blackhawk748]

You keep throwing together this imaginary strawman noob to argue with and its really obnoxious.

Go to Dakka Dakka. They exist.

[LeSwordfish]

Cool, okay, can you find me the post where someone says "you shouldn't charge me because that's not fun"?

[Blackhawk748]

Cool, okay, can you find me the post where someone says "you shouldn't charge me because that's not fun"?

A: I havent been on Dakka for years, cuz I went to the Mantic forums.

B: Thats hyperbole and you know it.

Back in 7th there were people complaining about various things being too good at melee cuz they could beat a SM Captain. Not some super melee captain mind you, just a regular old Captain. There were people saying melee was too strong. Others said Melee is too weak. More said Pyschic too strong. Others said its too weak.

Most of those were explained by other posters as "Dude, your list sucks at dealing with that, tweak this and you should be fine" which was usually answered with "But I don't want to."

So yes, they exist.

[LeSwordfish]

B: Thats hyperbole and you know it.

Yes, and when you invent an imaginary opponent to make a hyperbolic statement which you can then effortlessly debunk, its strawmanning and its really obnoxious.

[LansXero]

Whats hyperbolic about "bad players would rather be catered to than improve" ? I thought it was an obvious truth for most games, be they physical or online.

[Squark]

Yes, and when you invent an imaginary opponent to make a hyperbolic statement which you can then effortlessly debunk, its strawmanning and its really obnoxious.

It only felt mildly hyperbolic to me, although most people I know would at least recognize sending a key model into melee with just a combat knife was a bad plan once it backfired. Granted, I mostly play kill team these days, so I actually have had my bolt carbine Lieutenant charge with nothing but his fists to fight with, because it was still the most useful thing he could do when the enemy is either in melee or out of range.

Edit: Killteam annual will contain a comprehensive collection of every mission and every tactic, so no more worrying about exclusives!

Sadly, it looks like the Sisters don't get units to go with elites, which is a pity. I would have liked a Seraphim Kill team.

[Cheesegear]

You keep throwing together this imaginary strawman noob to argue with and its really obnoxious.

They're not imaginary. They're very real. I play against them all the time. They continuously bring **** lists - not even Themed lists, just terrible ones - and they continuously make mistakes bad choices - usually because it's 'more fun' to take a certain action (I do my best to tone down my lists when I play those people, but I wont throw games). Then they lose six or seven games in a row, and can't or wont understand what gives. And they quit, because everyone is power-gaming a-holes.

It's a Straw Man, sure. But those noobs scrubs are definitely not imaginary.

Whats hyperbolic about "bad players would rather be catered to than improve" ? I thought it was an obvious truth for most games...

For most things, in general.
When you talked about being a fat kid, I thought the next part was going to be "...and then I took up martial arts and boxing and walked/ran/jogged and jumped rope every single day until I was no longer a fat kid, and it took me six-to-eight months. And then suddenly I found out I was really good at football Rugby... And then I got hit by a car whilst riding a motorbike." ...'Cause that's what I did.

[Celticbear]

Aight, so I'm drumming up some Deathwatch/Inquisition writing, if ya'll wanna check it out that'd be really nice.

[LansXero]

When you talked about being a fat kid, I thought the next part was going to be "...and then I took up martial arts and boxing and walked/ran/jogged and jumped rope every single day until I was no longer a fat kid, and it took me six-to-eight months. And then suddenly I found out I was really good at football Rugby... And then I got hit by a car whilst riding a motorbike." ...'Cause that's what I did.

See, thats realizing a Banshee list is crap and buying Crimson Hunters. My story is more akin to a Necrons player who really cant go any further than 'get Destroyers then pray' (although they just got some well deserved point cuts).

Spoiler: Pointless irrelevant anecdote

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My first 2 years in highschool I went to this school that was sponsored by a University so their Education students had somewhere to practice and test theories. Due to lack of students it only had 1 class per grade, and it allowed people with bad conduct records and people who'd flunked 2 or 3 years in a row. So, our yearly soccer championship was a slaughter, as you had kids as young as 11 against 17 year old dudes who had hit puberty early. My first year I made the team purely because nobody else wanted to )(and a girl, because of course). We took silver, because there was this kid who was pretty good; he was fast, could keep a clear mind and could dance around the rest of the team and score in our faces. But instead of falling into the southamerican cliche of 'Messi / Pele will solve it', he actually got us to play like an european team: less dependant on individual talent, more focused on teamwork. less jogo bonito, more orderly aproaches. Because he knew that as good as he was he couldnt outplay the older guys, and we could've gone "screw you, having to play guys half again our size with voices as thick as our parents' is unfair bull**** and we wont have it'; but as mentioned before we just dont do that. Next year we got crushed, of course, because people realized size and age difference alone werent enough and actually trained, but even for someone as lazy as me, it was amazing realizing just how far my flabby chubby short legged body could go. Actually being able to look back and see how far I'd come is something I wouldnt change for anything. Competition is stimulating, hell, I'd even say its addictive, making steady progress, slow as it might be, is just the best; every step you see the results, you get better, faster, smarter, figure out some trick, some cool strat, pull off a weird angled shot, a perfectly timed pass, stand in the right place to eat a foul... and I could've missed all of that, just by going 'woohoo I cant make it, I cant, I cant'

[Meatgrinder]

Does it strike anyone else as strange that, on this specific thread, angry yelling and complaining about the hobby is always followed by mellow philosophical musing?

[Drasius]

I'd be surprised if it didn't, it's generally how it works IRL.

Once all the "REEEEEEEE" stops, everyone has had their vent, calms the hell down and then goes back to being regular people. As cool as 40k is, it's (generally) not cool enough to treat like some inviolable truth like many do with religion or politics, so people can accept that other people like different things or have opposing viewpoints on without thinking that they're babykillers just because they disagree.

Generally speaking, you don't stick around in 40k long enough, nor visit these sort of forums if you're not at least a little bit of a nerd, and while the social graces aren't always the best, there's usually enough intelligence that people can see both sides of the argument, even if they favour one side or the other.

[Blackhawk748]

Does it strike anyone else as strange that, on this specific thread, angry yelling and complaining about the hobby is always followed by mellow philosophical musing?

No, cuz as Drasius said, venting. I mean, I'm the perfect example. Once I got the anger out I could calm down and see I was being a bit silly. I still don't like Miracle Dice and consider them to be a bit of a stain on an otherwise solid improvement to a flawed base (Sisters being trapped with only using Bolters, Flamers, and Meltas is what really screws them, let's be honest here) and figure out thats why I got so upset over them.

I mean, I really do like the rest of the Dex, even the Triumph thing which I find moronic as hell is at least trying to be interesting, so me getting randomly philosophical and calmer afterwards is because of realization. Which I assume is how it typically happens.

Also its generally how I operate in life, just that 95% of the time its in my head, and with less vitriol, cuz Im not a terribly social person. Like, y'know, most nerds.

[druid91]

I'd be surprised if it didn't, it's generally how it works IRL.

Once all the "REEEEEEEE" stops, everyone has had their vent, calms the hell down and then goes back to being regular people. As cool as 40k is, it's (generally) not cool enough to treat like some inviolable truth like many do with religion or politics, so people can accept that other people like different things or have opposing viewpoints on without thinking that they're babykillers just because they disagree.

Generally speaking, you don't stick around in 40k long enough, nor visit these sort of forums if you're not at least a little bit of a nerd, and while the social graces aren't always the best, there's usually enough intelligence that people can see both sides of the argument, even if they favour one side or the other.

You say that like there aren't people who treat the Imperial Guardsmen's Uplifting Primer like a Holy Book.

[Cheesegear]

Does it strike anyone else as strange that, on this specific thread, angry yelling and complaining about the hobby is always followed by mellow philosophical musing?

Kübler-Ross model of the buff/nerf cycle:

Stage 1: Not my 40K. I can't believe GW could be this stupid,
Stage 2: Here's why everything sucks, and anyone who disagrees with me is objectively wrong. Reeeeeeeeeeeee,
Stage 3: Here's how I would've done it, if I used my brain,
Stage 4: This game sucks and I hate everything I own,
Stage 5: Okay, this is the new normal. Adapt or die, I guess. How do I salvage this nerf? Can I make use of the buff?

Spoiler: It'd be weird if it didn't happen

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[LeSwordfish]

I don't really care about your personal situation: I am just fed up of the dominant personality in this thread being a massive ********.

(Also what's with the "reee", **** off with that, this isnt 4chan.)

[Cheesegear]

Turns out the Vanguard Space Marine box has a number of un-helmeted Marines. Lucky for me, I bought an Infiltrators' box some time, which I was forced to stop building 'cause I'd heard that the Vanguard box was coming out (in my head, everything's come out except Supressors, so why wouldn't those molds be discontinued?). So I have a set of Infiltrator parts I can use to make the mono-build ones less terrible, and I can use the 'real' box to make Incursors out of.

The one that really bothers me is the one chucking the Smoke Grenade. It just doesn't look good.

Real question is, is it possible to make a Battle Company, in 8th Ed. and not have it be terrible? Since a Battle Company after Guilliman's Reformation is x2 Close Support, x2 Fire Support, and 'x6 Battleline' actually opens up a whole range of units.

To Excel, away!

[Drasius]

I don't really care about your personal situation: I am just fed up of the dominant personality in this thread being a massive ********.

(Also what's with the "reee", **** off with that, this isnt 4chan.)

Because I have zero doubt this thread would be upset if we said "autistic screaching" instead.

Also, if you're sick of Cheesegear being an arse (in your opinion), I'm not sure if you can get away with calling him such and telling him to **** off without coming across as a little hypocritical mate.

Turns out the Vanguard Space Marine box has a number of un-helmeted Marines. Lucky for me, I bought an Infiltrators' box some time, which I was forced to stop building 'cause I'd heard that the Vanguard box was coming out (in my head, everything's come out except Supressors, so why wouldn't those molds be discontinued?). So I have a set of Infiltrator parts I can use to make the mono-build ones less terrible, and I can use the 'real' box to make Incursors out of.

The one that really bothers me is the one chucking the Smoke Grenade. It just doesn't look good.

Real question is, is it possible to make a Battle Company, in 8th Ed. and not have it be terrible? Since a Battle Company after Guilliman's Reformation is x2 Close Support, x2 Fire Support, and 'x6 Battleline' actually opens up a whole range of units.

To Excel, away!

Part of why I wanted to do a brigade (see spoiler) was to do a relatively fluffy, yet competative pass at a demi-company. I strongly suspect that you could make a very competative demi company these days if all you cared about was 2/2/6 since 5 troops is a double battalion which everyone was taking anyway and there's a lot of "'cause I think it's cool" in the list below.

Spoiler

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107 - Captain, Jump Pack, Power Sword, Storm Shield
90 - Chaplain, Jump Pack
83 - Lieutenant, Jump Pack, Power Axe

171 - 10x Intercessors, Grenade Launcher
80 - 5x Sniper Scouts, Camo
70 - Scouts, Camo
85 - 5x Tacs, Lascannon
85 - 5x Tacs, Lascannon
82 - 5x Tacs, Plas, Combi-Plas

222 - 6x Agressors
121 - 5x VV, 5x Storm Shields, 2x Power Axes, 1x Thunder Hammer
121 - 5x VV, 5x Storm Shields, 2x Power Axes, 1x Thunder Hammer

90 - 3x Suppressors
65 - Land Speeder, 2x Heavy Bolters
65 - Land Speeder, 2x Heavy Bolters

150 - 5x Devs, 4x Grav, Cherub
155 - 5x Devs, 3x Las, 1x Heavy Bolter, Cherub
92 - Thunderfire

65 - Drop Pod

1999

Still debating if it's worth swapping an Agressor for a Thunder Hammer on the Captain so I'm not spending a CP on Burning Blade.

[Wraith]

And then I got hit by a car whilst riding a motorbike." ...'Cause that's what I did.

Weird coincidence; That Car just got announced for the next expansion of Codex: Craftworlds!

...It's already had a points reduction and gets +1 damage. Git gud, scrub!

Seriously though, Warhammer Community just announced a bunch of stuff coming out on the next WHW Open Day, some of which looks.... well....

Spoiler: Shrine of St. Katherine

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Spoiler: Sisters Repentia

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Spoiler: Whatever the **** this Ad Mech thing is....

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Note the chicken-leg landing gear hiding under the wing....

Spoiler: Aeronautica Imperialis is still a thing, apparently

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[Drasius]

Whatever the **** this Ad Mech thing is....]

Thanks. I hate it.

I'm not sure what I was expecting for the shrine, but it looked better than what we got.

We're going to get so many thick thicc thigh jokes about repentia, and even though it hasn't started, it's already gotten old.

[Grim Portent]

The Triumph of St. Katherine is way too busy. I blame the cherubs myself, they take up a lot of vertical and horizontal real estate. Would have been better as a hover platform or being carried by penitents or something.

I like the Repentia, they look a bit like body builders which suits rather well imo. I do think they could do with more self-flagellation themed stuff. I have a hard time imagining them going into battle with bare heads rather than wearing some kind of uncomfortable, shameful or actively painful headgear.

[LansXero]

It looks horrid to pick up, transport and move around. Aesthetically its... well, terribly busy, but thats how processions go. Simply not putting in the Cherubs should help a lot though.

[9mm]

my one complaint about the triumph is there is no obvious person to stick in a fedora.

[Cheesegear]

Weird coincidence; That Car just got announced for the next expansion of Codex: Craftworlds!
...It's already had a points reduction and gets +1 damage. Git gud, scrub!

I lol'd so hard. Well played.

Whatever the **** this Ad Mech thing is...

...wat

[9mm]

...wat

Apparently DaVinci made STCs.

[Enixon]

Apparently DaVinci made STCs.

Honestly, I could believe it, they already have Tesla's Skull as a lightning shooting anti-tank relic after all.

[Squark]

I lol'd so hard. Well played.



...wat

I think GW is actively trolling us at this point. That abomination is so gloriously stupid that I kind of like it.