Results 271 to 300 of 815
-
2020-01-03, 05:05 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2010
- Gender
-
2020-01-03, 05:23 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jan 2008
Re: Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XVI: Where the Ordnance is Hand-Delivered!
-
2020-01-03, 05:29 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2007
Re: Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XVI: Where the Ordnance is Hand-Delivered!
Wolf Guard are the equivalent of Veteran squads - with the proviso that a young Wolf can get into the Guard if their talents are great enough and their feats are impressive enough.
Long Fangs are those whose feats were never great enough to merit a transfer into the Wolf Guard, and a chance to receive training in the use of Terminator Armour.
There's also an element of "the whole squad is assessed together".
So - start as Blood Claws
Once depleted, if they're also reasonably talented - given bolters and called Grey Hunters.
Those Grey Hunters who distinguish themselves - leave the squad and become Wolf Guard.
The remainder, once depleted, if they get old enough and still fail to distinguish themselves - given heavy weapons and called Long Fangs.Last edited by hamishspence; 2020-01-03 at 05:37 AM.
Marut-2 Avatar by Serpentine
New Marut Avatar by Linkele
-
2020-01-03, 05:40 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2011
- Location
- Oxford, UK
- Gender
Re: Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XVI: Where the Ordnance is Hand-Delivered!
It's appropriately Space Wolf that "years of service" and "did some cool deeds" are two seperate advancement tracks. That's why they become the heavy weapon troopers I suppose - your average Long Fang has spent a century going "I'm not charging that. Let's shoot it with our guns instead?"
- Avatar by LCP -
-
2020-01-03, 06:13 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Aug 2008
- Location
- Malaysia
Re: Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XVI: Where the Ordnance is Hand-Delivered!
Space Wolves have always been a bit of a puzzle for me. Their theming would normally suggest melee specialisation (Viking werewolves and all) but they’re actually more rounded than say the Blood Angels.
It’s notable that they see hot headed melee ferocity as something to be expected but also something to burn out.Awesome OOTS-style Fallout New Vegas avatar by Ceika. Or it was, before Photobucket started charging money.
General nerd person. Mostly computer games and manga.
-
2020-01-03, 06:22 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jan 2008
Re: Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XVI: Where the Ordnance is Hand-Delivered!
Blood Claw: I'm full of piss and vinegar, and I'm gonna slay me a monster with my bare hands! They'll sing my Saga forever, and my gene-seed will be legendary.
Long Fang: Yeah, nah. I'm good, 'ey? Back '78, me 'n' my Pack tried to kill a monster. Out of the 10 of us, only two of us made it back, and I lost an eye. I'm gonna sit over that hill yonder, and if I see a monster, I'm gonna shoot in the face with my Lascannon.
-
2020-01-03, 07:59 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2007
Re: Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XVI: Where the Ordnance is Hand-Delivered!
I thought a Long Fang pack normally had to consist entirely of survivors from a single Grey Hunter pack, who themselves normally have to consist entirely of survivors from a single Blood Claw pack, to maintain comradely cohesion?
As such, wouldn't the result of a pack reduced from 10 to 2 all at once, be the two survivors being declared "Lone Wolves"? While the name implies that the pack was reduced to 1 rather than 2, I get the impression that the Lone Wolf solution applies whenever a pack becomes too small, and the survivors are not experienced enough to be promoted.
Blood Claw pack reduced to 2 or 3, and none are good enough to get into Wolf guard, Become Lone Wolves. Grey Hunter pack reduced to 2 or 3, none are good enough to get into Wolf Guard, and are far too young to be Long Fangs? Lone Wolves.Marut-2 Avatar by Serpentine
New Marut Avatar by Linkele
-
2020-01-03, 08:16 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2008
- Location
- Canada
- Gender
Re: Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XVI: Where the Ordnance is Hand-Delivered!
I thought Lone Wolves were those Space Wolves who lost all (or most) of their squad, and got so caught up in their grief and rage to become suicidal. Or those who were unable to mix together with a new pack of Marines due to 'issues.'
But overall, they are much rarer. Most Space Wolves mix into a new squad just fine. Or if not fine, at least with a minimum amount of friction.Spoiler: I'm a writer!Spoiler: Check out my fanfiction[URL="https://www.fanfiction.net/u/7493788/Forum-Explorer"here[/URL]
]Fate Stay Nano: Fate Stay Night x Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha
I Fell in Love with a Storm: MLP
Procrastination: MLP
Spoiler: Original FictionThe Lost Dragon: A story about a priest who finds a baby dragon in his church and decides to protect them.
-
2020-01-03, 08:20 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jan 2008
Re: Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XVI: Where the Ordnance is Hand-Delivered!
Yes and no. Or, rather, it's contradicted in many places. Because GW is gonna GW. Rather than retcon something outright, they simply don't repeat it in later Codecies, but do contradict it, then say "You decide." and wave spooky hands.
What happens when you have a pack of Blood Claws. Some of them still believe in Chainswords, but others realise that The Emperor gave Astartes Boltguns for a reason? Would the squad become Sky- or Swiftclaws? Or would the squad become Grey Hunters? Wouldn't that break squad cohesion if some Wolves matured in battle, whilst others didn't?
I get the impression that the Lone Wolf solution applies whenever a pack becomes too small, and the survivors are not experienced enough to be promoted.
If a Space Wolf can't form new bonds, what's even the point of joining the Deathwatch? What's the point in coming back to Fenris after your Watch has ended (not in the Game of Thrones way)?
Lone Wolf is a mentality, not a rank. Losing all your friends doesn't make you a Lone Wolf. Slipping into severe depression and rage disorders, makes you a Lone Wolf.
Lone Wolves are one of those things that sound cool (Navigators are super rare and each ship only gets one, and they should be protected at all costs), but later writers realised it was dumb and constrictive, and made stories harder to write (Navigators have to be everywhere, and replaceable, or the entire Imperium falls apart).
-
2020-01-03, 10:31 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2007
-
2020-01-03, 10:42 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jan 2008
Re: Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XVI: Where the Ordnance is Hand-Delivered!
-
2020-01-03, 01:18 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2006
Re: Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XVI: Where the Ordnance is Hand-Delivered!
I though all Space Wulfs either grew out of the blood claw mentality, gained enough notoriety to become Wolf Guard,
or i guess died before getting gray hairs.thnx to Starwoof for the fine avatar
-
2020-01-03, 03:21 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Apr 2007
- Location
- England
- Gender
Re: Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XVI: Where the Ordnance is Hand-Delivered!
Positions in the FoC are in theory linear and well mapped out, but in practice are quite fluid and are usually only guidelines to any but the most inflexible of Codex-adherent Chapters.
You're supposed to start out as a Scout (or equivalent), then move around until you ultimately end up in the 1st Company and hoping to get a suit of Terminator armour. What actually happens is that some guys get promoted according to their circumstances and aptitudes, and others get demoted down to Scout (because its demeaning to be put back with the 'kids' and be bossed around by your old Scout Sergeant again) or to the Devastators (where they aren't allowed to hold a Heavy Weapon, and have to stand at the back out of trouble and learn to be patient and obey orders).
The truth is, some guys are really good at being Assault Marines so they're allowed to stay there forever, whereas others are highly experienced in all forms of warfare but neither excel nor fail at any of them, so they end up in the 8th or 9th Company Tactical Marines and get reassigned to fill in the gaps as required - not out of glory or punishment, but just because that Company needs an extra body to make up numbers.
It's one of the things that most Chapters get right about the Codex Astartes - while it says that you should go through each role in turn, sometimes you need to bend the rules and assign people where they're best suited, or where they're more urgently needed. The Codex was never meant to be taken literally and without reinterpretation, it's there to start you on the correct route to thinking for yourself.~ CAUTION: May Contain Weasels ~
RPG Characters What I Done Played As (Explained Badly)
17 Things I Learned About 40k By Playing Dark Heresy
Tales of a Role-Play Gamer - Horrible Optimisation
-
2020-01-03, 07:10 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2008
- Location
- Canada
- Gender
Re: Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XVI: Where the Ordnance is Hand-Delivered!
I think it is a little literal though. It the sense that it's typical for a Space Wolf to start having grey hairs before they become a Grey Hunter, and their fangs are long by the time they become a Longfang. It is mentality based as there are exceptions in both directions, but that's the typical nature of things.
Spoiler: I'm a writer!Spoiler: Check out my fanfiction[URL="https://www.fanfiction.net/u/7493788/Forum-Explorer"here[/URL]
]Fate Stay Nano: Fate Stay Night x Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha
I Fell in Love with a Storm: MLP
Procrastination: MLP
Spoiler: Original FictionThe Lost Dragon: A story about a priest who finds a baby dragon in his church and decides to protect them.
-
2020-01-03, 09:50 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jan 2012
- Location
- Montreal
- Gender
Re: Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XVI: Where the Ordnance is Hand-Delivered!
I think the point meant is that a Tactical Marine Squad is the ultimate multitool of an Astartes Chapter. Marines who have proved they can cut it in both ranged and melee specialist get to exercise both.
Assault and Devastator posting serves 2 purposes: first they allow the test of full fledged marine in a long standing position dedicated to a specific style of battle. You get to know as much as possible about the intricacies of ranged and melee battlefield tactics.
The second use is to give veterancy or leadership positions to marines who aren't cut to be a multitool, but still proved to be extremely talented in a specific doctrine. An Assault Sergeant is no mere Tactical-in-training.
Same for Scout Sergeants. They are not trainees, but probably fully fledged marines who have shown remarkable leadership and teaching skills for the initiates.
If I had to put any sort of hierarchy between sergeants, it would be Tactical > Scout > Devastator = Assault. But all serve a purpose.
-
2020-01-03, 10:27 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jan 2008
Re: Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XVI: Where the Ordnance is Hand-Delivered!
The issue is that they can't/don't.
The fluff says that they are good at everything. However, because the Tactical Marine is the backbone of a Space Marine army (at least it was, back in 5e), game design says that the unit you're likely to take the most has to be a 'generalist' unit. Because we know how the game is played, 'generalist' units are bad. Therefore, the unit that the fluff says is good at everything, is actually terrible at everything because the unit has no dedicated focus.
'Jack-of-all-Trades, Master of None' is a secret codephrase that actually means 'No real talent. A little bit **** at everything.'
One way Scouts used to go was*:
Scout - Boltgun, Blade and Rifle
TacticalVeteranAssaultVeteranDevastatorVeteran
...In this way, the Marine's progression is pretty much decided when he's a Scout, and their disposition (basically, how Space Wolves work). A Chapter would then be stacked with Tactical Marines, because the vast majority of recruits showed no real preference for Melee (Blades) or hanging out and waiting (Rifles). This is why certain Chapters stacked their lines with Assault Marines or Devastators, because that's where the majority of the recruits wanted to go, based on how the Chapter operated. Blood Angels gene-seed causes recruits to be aggressive, thus, a lot of recruits showed aptitude for CQC, so the Blood Angels' Chapter ended up with a lot of Assault Marines.
Another way was*:
Scout
Tactical MarineVeteranAssault MarineVeteranDevastatorVeteran
...In this way, a Scout was a generalist of warfare, learning the ropes. Boltgun, Blade and Rifle. Learn all of them. Learning how to fight, was done while you were learning how to fight. By learning all skills, this would directly transfer them to Tactical Marines. A Chapter had so many Tactical Marines because the recruitment process was front-loaded with them, and it was only after a few more decades of war, that a Marine developed their personal style, and where they were best suited. As such, Assault Marines and Devastators were very similar to a 'Veteran/Sergeant' path, being older and more experienced meant that they could go into CQC with alien horrors and not die in seconds. Which is why Chapters weren't chock-full of Assault Marines and Devastators, because becoming a specialist, is something that takes time.
Now, we have this bizarre fluff where the 'generalist unit' is written to be hyper-specialised in all fields of war...But can't seem to do any of them, well, when on the board. The way they train as an Assault Marine, isn't done when they're a Scout-with-a-Knife as early as possible. They're trained as an Assault Marine in their 50s. After they've already been in several fights and may have really liked Melee training like...Ages ago. The way that Marines are trained, now, should get them injured and/or killed relatively frequently.
Either of the previous ways of progression, made sense (training is done while training). Generalist units don't do anything particularly well. Specialised units, are made up of specialists, not untrained idiots. But, Matt Ward's job was to sell you on Space Marines. The 'average joe' Space Marine that you take the most of, is a genius at warfare and has a half-century of warfare under his belt at least, He couldn't do it in the stat-block, because game design. But he could do it in the fluff which has no relevance to anything.
*I don't remember which was first. I think Graham McNeill wrote the former in 4e?
-
2020-01-04, 01:15 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jan 2012
- Location
- Montreal
- Gender
Re: Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XVI: Where the Ordnance is Hand-Delivered!
I am really sorry. You really are one of the most knowledgeable about all things fluff, the novels, etc. It's just.. are you using Crunch to negate the Fluff?
Just because the tactical marines in the game, designed to be a generalist - which therefore is usually pretty crappy in many wargames - doesn't mean fluff-wise the Tactical Marines can't be the actually super-high and mighty masters of the battlefield.
Think of the Tactical Marines as the ultimate multi-faceted version of the perfect soldier. You can deploy a squad of them and they'll do every-frakking-thing you need them to do.
Devastators and Assault? Okay, they are still learning the ropes man. That's why we give them more specialized equipment that works better in large-scale coordinated engagements. But generalist ground-control infantry? That's the Tactical Marines that reign supreme.
Either that or I just don't get the point the fluff is trying to make then XD
-
2020-01-04, 01:51 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jan 2008
Re: Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XVI: Where the Ordnance is Hand-Delivered!
No. I'm using fluff to negate fluff. The crunch is just deep-fried on.
Just because the tactical marines in the game, designed to be a generalist - which therefore is usually pretty crappy in many wargames - doesn't mean fluff-wise the Tactical Marines can't be the actually super-high and mighty masters of the battlefield.
Consider a recent Founding. With post-5e fluff, the idea is that relatively new Chapter is front-loaded with Companies' worth of Assault Marines and Devastators, with zero Tactical Marines. It doesn't check out.
You can deploy a squad of them and they'll do every-frakking-thing you need them to do.
Two Tactical Marines, who stayed out of the fight, rib each other. "Amateurs." they smirk to each other.
You're thinking of Deathwatch Veterans with several specialists of varying disciplines with a combined centuries of experience to draw from. With customised wargear tailored to each and every member of the squad's disposition and discipline, so that regardless of situation, the squad has the right Marine, with the right tools, who can instruct his squad-mates on what to do in any situation because Veterans know how to work as a team. So if one person knows something, the whole squad knows the same thing.
That's a generalist unit that's good at everything.
Either that or I just don't get the point the fluff is trying to make then XD
I'm saying that that doesn't check out when you think about it for longer than five seconds. Especially when you start talking about recruitment on a mass scale. Chapters should be back-loaded to the 8th and 9th Companies, and they're not. The way the fluff should be written, is that what's in a Battle Company, should make up like, two, maybe three Companies, tops.
-
2020-01-04, 03:02 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2007
Re: Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XVI: Where the Ordnance is Hand-Delivered!
Marut-2 Avatar by Serpentine
New Marut Avatar by Linkele
-
2020-01-04, 03:43 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Aug 2008
- Location
- Malaysia
Re: Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XVI: Where the Ordnance is Hand-Delivered!
This is more or less how I thought it should go. The Tactical Squad isn’t some super elite “final form”, but the last stop for any Astartes who didn’t particularly excel at anything. This correlates with the fact that Tac Squads make up almost half of a Chapter’s number. The Assault and Devastator squads are retaining only the best of those specialists and passing the rest to the Tactical Squads.
They’re still Space Marines, mind. They’ll mop the floor with 90% of anyone else’s generalist troops (that’s the idea anyway).
And fluff wise, all that assault and Devastator experience wouldn’t exactly hurt.Awesome OOTS-style Fallout New Vegas avatar by Ceika. Or it was, before Photobucket started charging money.
General nerd person. Mostly computer games and manga.
-
2020-01-04, 03:48 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2007
Re: Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XVI: Where the Ordnance is Hand-Delivered!
I could see the Support Companies as having "trainee Assault and Devastators" and the ones within the Battle Companies, being "experienced Assault and Devastators"
Last edited by hamishspence; 2020-01-04 at 03:48 AM.
Marut-2 Avatar by Serpentine
New Marut Avatar by Linkele
-
2020-01-04, 04:10 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Apr 2008
- Gender
Re: Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XVI: Where the Ordnance is Hand-Delivered!
I did kind of like the idea of the first steps for neophytes being scouts then devastators for most chapters. Kind of made sense that the first two roles would be kept out of front line combat where they could see how combat actually went in ways that training grounds didn't really cover. I don't know that the new guy would be given a heavy weapon, rather than act as a spotter for some of the weapons, or to help fend off any enemies that try to flank their position, or get into melee range. Especially for those chapters who prefer heavy weapons with a blast radius.
Thanks to Dirty Tabs for the Travis pony.
Spoiler
Thanks to A Thousand Words for the My Little Simhata avatar, and thanks to Trixie for fixing the cropping.
Breakdown Twilight from Pony Halloween celebration, thanks to Thanqol.
Thanks to Akrim.Elf for the awesome Laharl pony.
-
2020-01-04, 04:23 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2007
Re: Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XVI: Where the Ordnance is Hand-Delivered!
Marut-2 Avatar by Serpentine
New Marut Avatar by Linkele
-
2020-01-04, 05:07 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jan 2008
Re: Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XVI: Where the Ordnance is Hand-Delivered!
-
2020-01-04, 05:36 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2007
Re: Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XVI: Where the Ordnance is Hand-Delivered!
Because apparently Assault squads need discipline, and not to get so carried away with bloodlust in battle that they miss orders. Apparently the Devastator squads are where that discipline is cemented.
Marut-2 Avatar by Serpentine
New Marut Avatar by Linkele
-
2020-01-13, 05:46 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2009
Re: Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XVI: Where the Ordnance is Hand-Delivered!
Question about color schemes: do Aspect Warriors use any Craftworld-specific coloration? Or do they only use the Aspect colors?
ithilanor on Steam.
-
2020-01-13, 06:36 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2014
- Gender
Re: Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XVI: Where the Ordnance is Hand-Delivered!
They do not use Craftworld colours - instead, each shrine has their own colour scheme that represents them, which is based on a general colour palette. Swooping Hawks involve blues and greys and whites; Striking Scorpions greens and browns and yellows. That sort of thing. I don't know how much that's emphasised now, rather than the single unified scheme, though.
Here's some (much older) examples. The... 4th/5th ed Eldar Book has several much more modern ones (for instance, the Dark Reapers here are... very different), IIRC, but this is the one I could find as an image online.
SpoilerLast edited by DataNinja; 2020-01-13 at 06:36 PM.
-
2020-01-13, 08:29 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2009
Re: Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XVI: Where the Ordnance is Hand-Delivered!
ithilanor on Steam.
-
2020-01-16, 07:05 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jun 2009
- Gender
Re: Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XVI: Where the Ordnance is Hand-Delivered!
-
2020-01-16, 09:34 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jan 2012
- Location
- Montreal
- Gender
Re: Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XVI: Where the Ordnance is Hand-Delivered!