Body enhancement

[Noxangelo]

I recently found an old post on an old thread. a warforged monk build that, if i have this correct and i am a noob so forgive me if i don't. Abused the fact the warforged are constructs and that a monks entire body was his unarmed strike and counts as both natural and manufactured. Using those to implant weapon gems into his body and give his unarmed strike weapon enhancements to increase his hardness to reduce the damage he takes.

is this correct and does this only work for warforged? would it be possible for a fleshy monk to do the same?

[The Viscount]

It would depend on the specific wording of the enhancement being used. Creatures don't typically have hardness, unless they're animated objects.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

I'm assuming you're talking about this build, since it's one of my favorites.

I think weapon crystals (in the MIC) would work for any monk's unarmed strike, if it was considered at least masterwork (for a least weapon crystal, or a +1/+3 for lesser and greater, respectively). The monk's unarmed strike does say it's counted as a manufactured weapon when desirable, and weapon crystals work just fine with manufactured weapons (again, if masterwork/+1/+3).

The armor crystals only work on armor, and a typical non-warforged monk's body doesn't count as armor for any purpose (aside from something like this, which would allow you to enhance your torso as an armor slot [like you can with a shirt, even though it's technically not armor]). The reason I think it works for a warforged is that a warforged's body can explicitly be enhanced as armor, and so an armor crystal should work, unless the DM believes otherwise. And since it's the warforged's actual body (as opposed to something attached to his body), any armor crystal attached to him affects him, not an attached item.

It's a bit of rules-lawyering, and possibly not RAI, but it seems like it could be RAW enough.

It would depend on the specific wording of the enhancement being used. Creatures don't typically have hardness, unless they're animated objects.

Psicrystals do, so it's not unheard of. And enhancing one's body as a +1 (or above) weapon or armor shield would grant bonus hp and hardness, according to the rules for weapon/armor shield enhancement bonuses.

Hardness and Hit Points
Each +1 of enhancement bonus adds 2 to a weapon’s or shield’s hardness and +10 to its hit points.

Granted, it does say "shield" and not "armor." That's probably only because armor can't be sundered, so they didn't think it would need to be said, although I can think of reasons why armor would need extra hardness, too.

[Noxangelo]

pretty sure it was one of your posts which lead me to it.

so the weapon enchants will work as long as its masterwork or better (the build use permanent magic fang is memory serves)

and if i let myself get skined and graft it back on i can enchant myself as armor, but how could i qualify as a shield?

Incidentaly, I'm asking because I'm working on a character with a lvl of monk most of whose slotted items are all tattooed onto him or similar where possible.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

pretty sure it was one of your posts which lead me to it.

Good to know. I post that build on monk threads often enough.

so the weapon enchants will work as long as its masterwork or better (the build use permanent magic fang is memory serves)

It should, yes, as the monk's whole body should count as its unarmed strike. About the only body parts I can't see being used somehow to lay a beat-down on an enemy are the throat and groin, and even that might not apply to nonhuman creatures.

and if i let myself get skined and graft it back on i can enchant myself as armor, but how could i qualify as a shield?

Remember, that skin is reapplied over your entire body, so any body part can be enhanced if it takes up an item slot. So if you're willing to eat the +100% markup for being in the torso slot, have your torso enhanced as a ring of force shield. This one's a bit difficult, since shields are otherwise slotless items, but I *think* there's a set of bracers that grant a shield bonus to AC instead of an armor bonus, but that still only qualifies your forearms for the bonus hp and hardness.

Incidentaly, I'm asking because I'm working on a character with a lvl of monk most of whose slotted items are all tattooed onto him or similar where possible.

I've always liked the idea of getting your body magically enhanced directly instead of playing the "magical Christmas tree" game.

[Gruftzwerg]

I recently found an old post on an old thread. a warforged monk build that, if i have this correct and i am a noob so forgive me if i don't. Abused the fact the warforged are constructs and that a monks entire body was his unarmed strike and counts as both natural and manufactured. Using those to implant weapon gems into his body and give his unarmed strike weapon enhancements to increase his hardness to reduce the damage he takes.

is this correct and does this only work for warforged? would it be possible for a fleshy monk to do the same?

It doesn't work out as described. I'll just mention some of flaws of this concept:

1:

A monk’s attacks may be with either fist interchangeably or even from elbows, knees, and feet.

It's not the entire body for monks unarmed strike. In fact, if you go strict RAW a monk may not even use a headbutt as unarmed strike. So, no weapon enchantments that cover the entire body. Note that this limitation is not valid for regular unarmed strikes. Only for monks. But regular unarmed strikes can't be enchanted, so that's a dead end too.

2: A monks unarmed strike has no hardness and can't be sundered, since it is not a weapon.
So anything that improves weapon hardness is basically useless since the unarmed strike doesn't have this stat to improve. When attacking you can't target an unarmed strike, since it ain't a real weapon. It just counts as weapon for enchanting and lets you count as armed, but that doesn't turn your unarmed strike into a weapon in terms of rules.

3: By RAW unarmed strike and entire body are not the same.
Even if you could somehow enchant your entire body as weapon, in terms of rules, it would still be the weapon targeted and no the body. The attacker can't target the unarmed strike and just targets your normal body. And since sunder doesn't work, there is zero benefit. Cause your "body" doesn't have the bonuses. It would be the unarmed strike that counts as weapon for enchanting that would have (and partially ignore) those bonuses.


The entire concept relies on wrong assumptions how the rules work. It breaks to many rules..

edit: It's the same flawed concept the Brilliant Energy (weapon enhancement) monk kensai relies on. And that build is also flawed. Sorry..

[MaxiDuRaritry]

It doesn't work out as described. I'll just mention some of flaws of this concept:

1:
It's not the entire body for monks unarmed strike. In fact, if you go strict RAW a monk may not even use a headbutt as unarmed strike. So, no weapon enchantments that cover the entire body. Note that this limitation is not valid for regular unarmed strikes. Only for monks. But regular unarmed strikes can't be enchanted, so that's a dead end too.

A.) The statement is inclusive, not exclusive. Basically, 'these are examples of ways to perform unarmed strikes.' Not 'these are the only ways to perform unarmed strikes.' It never says that unarmed strikes can ONLY be used with those parts. And body-slams, clotheslines, and headbutts are clearly unarmed strikes, and they are moves taught in actual martial arts, so they really ought to count. Or are you saying that superpowered martial-artist monks are worse at fighting unarmed than real life martial artists?

2: A monks unarmed strike has no hardness and can't be sundered, since it is not a weapon.

The monk's unarmed strike ability very clearly says that they are considered manufactured when beneficial. So yes to weapon enhancements, as manufactured weapons can clearly be enhanced, but no to sundering, since it's not beneficial. You might have to spend 300 gp in crafting your body into a masterwork weapon, but a training montage under a master should suffice. It happens in 80s action flicks all the time.

So anything that improves weapon hardness is basically useless since the unarmed strike doesn't have this stat to improve. When attacking you can't target an unarmed strike, since it ain't a real weapon. It just counts as weapon for enchanting and lets you count as armed, but that doesn't turn your unarmed strike into a weapon in terms of rules.

False. Unarmed strikes clearly have stats; they're in the weapon lists, after all. The monk ability alters damage output and grants a few other extras, but they're very clearly there.

Unless you're saying that a dagger made from adamantine is suddenly no longer considered a weapon because its stats are augmented compared to the weapon entry in the PHB?

3: By RAW unarmed strike and entire body are not the same.
Even if you could somehow enchant your entire body as weapon, in terms of rules, it would still be the weapon targeted and no the body. The attacker can't target the unarmed strike and just targets your normal body. And since sunder doesn't work, there is zero benefit. Cause your "body" doesn't have the bonuses. It would be the unarmed strike that counts as weapon for enchanting that would have (and partially ignore) those bonuses.

Unarmed strikes are striking with your body. If your body is being used to make the attacks, then your body is the weapon. Yes, there are special rules involved, but that goes with any weapon in the game. Extra damage for 2-handers, bonuses to trip with various polearms, disarming bonuses with kamas, reach with spiked chains, and so on.

Unarmed strikes are clearly weapons; they just can't be sundered. It's an unusual property of the weapon, but unusual weapon properties are not unusual; virtually all weapons have at least one.

The entire concept relies on wrong assumptions how the rules work. It breaks to many rules..

Um, I pointed out the rules above. I don't think the build is the one based on wrong assumptions.

[Gruftzwerg]

A.) The statement is inclusive, not exclusive. Basically, 'these are examples of ways to perform unarmed strikes.' Not 'these are the only ways to perform unarmed strikes.' It never says that unarmed strikes can ONLY be used with those parts. And body-slams, clotheslines, and headbutts are clearly unarmed strikes, and they are moves taught in actual martial arts, so they really ought to count. Or are you saying that superpowered martial-artist monks are worse at fighting unarmed than real life martial artists?

The statement includes those listed but stays exclusive (it was never inclusive in the first place). There is no indicator for the "use any body part" as you want to make it look like, sry.
I know we want it (me inducing) to be like in Real Life or in those cool Old China Town movies, but that is not what RAW says. The monk gets a few extra body parts to choose from, but not all parts. No indicator for that.

The monk's unarmed strike ability very clearly says that they are considered manufactured when beneficial. So yes to weapon enhancements, as manufactured weapons can clearly be enhanced, but no to sundering, since it's not beneficial. You might have to spend 300 gp in crafting your body into a masterwork weapon, but a training montage under a master should suffice. It happens in 80s action flicks all the time.

Not whenever befinitcal.
The ability says:

A monk’s unarmed strike is treated both as a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons.

Only for "spells and effects" not for everything.

False. Unarmed strikes clearly have stats; they're in the weapon lists, after all. The monk ability alters damage output and grants a few other extras, but they're very clearly there.

Unless you're saying that a dagger made from adamantine is suddenly no longer considered a weapon because its stats are augmented compared to the weapon entry in the PHB?

Yeah they have stats. But not for hardness nor an AC to attack. And adding to nothing (not zero!) remains nothing. Or are you suggesting that an Undead with a buff to Constitution score starts to have a Constitution score? No, the buff would have no effect on the Undead. Same here.
If you don't have the stat, you can't add any bonus to it, that simple.

Unarmed strikes are striking with your body. If your body is being used to make the attacks, then your body is the weapon. Yes, there are special rules involved, but that goes with any weapon in the game. Extra damage for 2-handers, bonuses to trip with various polearms, disarming bonuses with kamas, reach with spiked chains, and so on.

Unarmed strikes are clearly weapons; they just can't be sundered. It's an unusual property of the weapon, but unusual weapon properties are not unusual; virtually all weapons have at least one.

Um, I pointed out the rules above. I don't think the build is the one based on wrong assumptions.

Even if they are weapons, doesn't change the outcome.
I don't target your (unarmed strike) weapon and thus don't have to deal with any stats associated with it (like the nonexistent hardness). I target your body AC and have to deal with the things related to that: DR, Immunities, damage conversion to nonlethal due to Regimentation and such things.


It's not that I dislike the idea. But the rules don't support this.

[ShurikVch]

This whole argument may be bypassed by playing as Animated Object which was made of Adamantine
Dragon #293 gave rules for playing monsters from the Monster Manual: Tiny Animated Object is LA +4, and Small - +5
Sure, it looks like much, but on the other hand - +480 (or even 960!) hp and hardness 20...

[Gruftzwerg]

This whole argument may be bypassed by playing as Animated Object which was made of Adamantine
Dragon #293 gave rules for playing monsters from the Monster Manual: Tiny Animated Object is LA +4, and Small - +5
Sure, it looks like much, but on the other hand - +480 (or even 960!) hp and hardness 20...

I give you extra points for the cheesy try^^
But I have to say no again..
The weapon enhancement targets the "unarmed strikes" stats and not your bodies stats. Your "unarmed strike", even as animated object, still has no hardness score to begin with and thus don't get the bonus.
Your hardness from your body is not the target of the enhancement and thus don't get the bonus either.

A typical lose/lose situation.

[ShurikVch]

I give you extra points for the cheesy try^^
But I have to say no again..
The weapon enhancement targets the "unarmed strikes" stats and not your bodies stats. Your "unarmed strike", even as animated object, still has no hardness score to begin with and thus don't get the bonus.
Your hardness from your body is not the target of the enhancement and thus don't get the bonus either.

A typical lose/lose situation.

No need to enhance anything: the body is already made of adamantine - thus, have hardness 20 and +40 hp/inch

[Gruftzwerg]

No need to enhance anything: the body is already made of adamantine - thus, have hardness 20 and +40 hp/inch

I was just referring to the "body enhancement" topic..^^

[Calthropstu]

I hear they make pills for this...

[animewatcha]

If you are gonna have warforged enhancing their body for hardness and bonus hitpoints and such, might as well take 5 levels of incarnum blade prestige class. Potentially with bloodline levels as well ( dunno how that would work ).

[Noxangelo]

About the only body parts I can't see being used somehow to lay a beat-down on an enemy are the throat and groin, and even that might not apply to nonhuman creatures.

Depends on the size of your CHA score . . .

Remember, that skin is reapplied over your entire body, so any body part can be enhanced if it takes up an item slot. So if you're willing to eat the +100% markup for being in the torso slot

so the skin counts as torso? what about body (the armor slot)?

have your torso enhanced as a ring of force shield.

also i didn't think you could add enhancements to a ring of force shield since its technically not a real shield.

This one's a bit difficult, since shields are otherwise slotless items, but I *think* there's a set of bracers that grant a shield bonus to AC instead of an armor bonus, but that still only qualifies your forearms for the bonus hp and hardness.

would you be talking about the dastana? how would that work with the skin?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

so the skin counts as torso? what about body (the armor slot)?

Not just that. The skin covers EVERYthing. There are no body-slots whose body parts are not covered in skin, since the skin covers literally everything, with small areas reserved for things like eyeballs (although the "eyes" slot should be renamed the "face" slot, since other items use that slot that cover the whole face).

Since the skin covers the whole body, just enhance each body part's skin-covering. So for the hands slot, enhance the skin on the hands. For your crown slot item, enhance your scalp. And so on.

As it actually takes up that body slot and is both expensive and fairly difficult to accomplish in a timely manner without getting yourself lobrainomized by the mind flayer that needs to install the skin, I don't think this is terribly unbalanced. The expense, you'll just have to deal with. The debrainification is possible to circumvent, but it requires things like finding a shapeshifter willing to deal fairly with you, psychic reformationing it to be able to install the graft, then somehow dealing with being out of commission for quite awhile, during which time your skin is flayed off, enhanced to make it a viable magic item, then reinstalled. Alternatively, put it in your backstory at character creation, but you'll need to justify it.

It's a lot of effort (and money).

also i didn't think you could add enhancements to a ring of force shield since its technically not a real shield.

Well, do remember that you can put any item effect on any other item. The ring of force shield is basically to say, "I have an effect that turns my torso into a shield effect" to make it easier to justify that it can have shield properties added. Otherwise, just throw on a +1 shield bonus to AC by taking the cost of a +1 shield and multiplying the cost by x2 for a different slot, then x1.5 because it's probably not the most expensive thing on that body slot. Then it's got a shield enhancement, so add the weapon/shield crystal to it. Or you could metamorphosis your body into a shield and have someone else enhance it while it's like that, which would be cheaper, if only due to not needing the x2 multiplier.

would you be talking about the dastana? how would that work with the skin?

Not talking about the dastana bracers. I was talking about giving it a shield bonus, as I mentioned above.

And I'm pretty sure dastana bracers wouldn't work as part of the skin, since they're a nonmagical item. You're adding magical enhancements, not nonmagical equipment.

[Bohandas]

For reference, the exact wording if the relevant ability is "A monk’s unarmed strike is treated both as a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons." and it comes from the monk class itself and therefore applies equally to monks of any race.

[Gruftzwerg]

Granted, it does say "shield" and not "armor." That's probably only because armor can't be sundered, so they didn't think it would need to be said, although I can think of reasons why armor would need extra hardness, too.

Pretty sure that you can Sunder Armor, since it is "a worn object"

Sundering a Carried or Worn Object

You don’t use an opposed attack roll to damage a carried or worn object. Instead, just make an attack roll against the object’s AC. A carried or worn object’s AC is equal to 10 + its size modifier + the Dexterity modifier of the carrying or wearing character. Attacking a carried or worn object provokes an attack of opportunity just as attacking a held object does. To attempt to snatch away an item worn by a defender rather than damage it, see Disarm. You can’t sunder armor worn by another character.

Same as before. Doesn't work as said since the weapon/shield stats enhancement doesn't work for your regular body stats.

For reference, the exact wording if the relevant ability is "A monk’s unarmed strike is treated both as a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons." and it comes from the monk class itself and therefore applies equally to monks of any race.

Yeah we had that already covered. I already quoted it above if you should have missed it.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

<Snip>

It's a helluvalot more fun to help the OP with what he's apparently allowed to do than to argue about this with you.

[Gruftzwerg]

It's a helluvalot more fun to help the OP with what he's apparently allowed to do than to argue about this with you.

One doesn't help by providing misinformation unless you tag it under DM fiat/homebrew whatsoever. I try to help too, so that the DM and the rest of the table won't get a headache. Maybe you think a lil bit about that too.

If you want to give help by bending the rules, fine. But at least be clear about it or don't have a problem when people point it out for you. I'm not trying to argue here, if you should have gotten the impression. I try to help too and have a nice conversation about rules.

[AnimeTheCat]

Pretty sure that you can Sunder Armor, since it is "a worn object"

wait... what?

Sundering a Carried or Worn Object: You don't use an opposed attack roll to damage a carried or worn object. Instead, just make an attack roll against the objects AC. A carried or worn object's AC is equal to 10 + its size modifier + the dexterity modifier of the carrying or wearing character. Attacking a carried or worn object provokes an attack of opportunity just as attacking aheld object does. To attempt to snatch away an item worn by a defender (such as a cloak or a pair of goggles) rather than damaging it, see disarm, page 155. You can't sunder armor worn by another character.

You can't sunder armor...

[Gruftzwerg]

wait... what?



You can't sunder armor...

you got me there. I should have read it to the end I guess..^^

[ShurikVch]

You can't sunder armor...

Bebilith can do it (even if it isn't, technically, a Sunder)

[Noxangelo]

that is actually a good point.

the bebilith attacks the armor's HP directly so armor has its own HP.

special materials and enhancements increase an items hardness and HP.

a warforged monk is his weapons and armor,

an argument could made.



also, going back to to the skin graft, since your entire body is covered by item, so all attacks against you will hit the skin (obviously) and will have to be destroyed before attacks affect you. and if you can make it aurorum to restore it with a full round action. not sure if its RAW, great way to get murdered with rule book if it is>