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  1. - Top - End - #601

    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVII - When you Wish upon a Stat...

    I don't know how to use a sextant (well, I know the theory, which as per usual is not reality) but I did learn to use a backstaff at a summer camp one year. And I was the only one to get our latitude within a hundred miles of what it actually was.

    Navigation skill challenges should really be more of a thing in RPGs.

  2. - Top - End - #602
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVII - When you Wish upon a Stat...

    Quote Originally Posted by Rogar Demonblud View Post
    I don't know how to use a sextant (well, I know the theory, which as per usual is not reality) but I did learn to use a backstaff at a summer camp one year. And I was the only one to get our latitude within a hundred miles of what it actually was.

    Navigation skill challenges should really be more of a thing in RPGs.
    I think a lot of adventures set in the Sword Coast do, but I can't say for sure.

    Also, I would like to amend my earlier statement: I would like to argue that Roy has zero ranks in Knowledge (Geography) and also zero ranks in Knowledge (Nobility and Royalty)
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  3. - Top - End - #603

    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVII - When you Wish upon a Stat...

    I dunno, cosplaying as a king may have given him some insight.

  4. - Top - End - #604
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVII - When you Wish upon a Stat...

    Quote Originally Posted by Rogar Demonblud View Post
    I dunno, cosplaying as a king may have given him some insight.
    Insight is a bonus!
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  5. - Top - End - #605
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVII - When you Wish upon a Stat...

    Sadly, bonuses aren't applicable to a skill that can't be used untrained :P

  6. - Top - End - #606
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVII - When you Wish upon a Stat...

    Quote Originally Posted by Kurald Galain View Post
    Roy Greenhilt
    Skills: Spot low.

    Durkon Allotrope Thundershield
    Skills: Spot 0.

    Elan
    Skills: Spot 0

    Haley Starshine
    Skills: Spot 0

    Vaarsuvius
    Skills: Spot 0
    I am not sure there is any more evidence to suggest Spot 0 compared to Roy's 'Spot Low'

    Belkar Bitterleaf a
    Skills:Spot 0
    Belkar is implied to have not put any ranks in spot here, however later he is noted as having a nice eye here (panel 4) so he might have put some ranks in it (also there is possibly a case for him having Craft: Alchemy).

  7. - Top - End - #607
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVII - When you Wish upon a Stat...

    Quote Originally Posted by dancrilis View Post
    Belkar is implied to have not put any ranks in spot here, however later he is noted as having a nice eye here (panel 4) so he might have put some ranks in it (also there is possibly a case for him having Craft: Alchemy).
    That can be just the +2 bonus on Spot checks if Belkar has humans as favored enemy. Belkar is a level 14 ranger, so he gets three favored enemies for free. We don't quite know what his favored enemies are, but I think Humanoid (reptilian) and Humanoid (human) are among it, and the first post claims that #957 ninth panel means that Undead is the third and that a certain interview with Rich means that Humanoid (human) is indeed one of them. If humans are one of his favored enemy, then he gets +2 on Spot checks against that human former prisoner in #435, and the human probably does not know whether the good eye is from being in Belkar's favored enemy subclass or from Spot ranks.

  8. - Top - End - #608
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVII - When you Wish upon a Stat...

    Quote Originally Posted by dancrilis View Post
    Belkar is implied to have not put any ranks in spot here, however later he is noted as having a nice eye here (panel 4) so he might have put some ranks in it (also there is possibly a case for him having Craft: Alchemy).
    Identifying a poison is not something you can do with Spot or Craft (alchemy).
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  9. - Top - End - #609
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVII - When you Wish upon a Stat...

    Quote Originally Posted by InvisibleBison View Post
    Identifying a poison is not something you can do with Spot or Craft (alchemy).
    Detect Poison disagrees with you.
    You can determine the exact type of poison with a DC 20 Wisdom check. A character with the Craft (alchemy) skill may try a DC 20 Craft (alchemy) check if the Wisdom check fails, or may try the Craft (alchemy) check prior to the Wisdom check.
    There is a question if whether you can make either check if you don't have the spell however.

  10. - Top - End - #610
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVII - When you Wish upon a Stat...

    Quote Originally Posted by dancrilis View Post
    Detect Poison disagrees with you.


    There is a question if whether you can make either check if you don't have the spell however.
    The fact that a spell specifically gives you the ability to do something is proof that ordinarily you can't do it.
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  11. - Top - End - #611

    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVII - When you Wish upon a Stat...

    So since Knock gives you the ability to open a locked door if you don't have a key, ordinary thieves can't pick the lock. Got it.

  12. - Top - End - #612
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVII - When you Wish upon a Stat...

    Quote Originally Posted by Rogar Demonblud View Post
    So since Knock gives you the ability to open a locked door if you don't have a key, ordinary thieves can't pick the lock. Got it.
    I think it's safe to say that ordinary thieves can't unlock a door a hundred and thirty feet away from them by speaking a short phrase, yes.
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  13. - Top - End - #613
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVII - When you Wish upon a Stat...

    Quote Originally Posted by InvisibleBison View Post
    The fact that a spell specifically gives you the ability to do something is proof that ordinarily you can't do it.
    It isn't - one can find traps without the find traps spell, you merely don't get the bonus (and it does help those who are not rogues).

    But that doesn't really matter, we will take your point as such given that Belkar did detect the poison and identify it should we assume he has an item of Detect Poison and has ranks in Craft: Alchemy.

  14. - Top - End - #614
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVII - When you Wish upon a Stat...

    Quote Originally Posted by dancrilis View Post
    It isn't - one can find traps without the find traps spell, you merely don't get the bonus (and it does help those who are not rogues).
    This doesn't actually disprove my statement. The default is that you can't find a trap with a Search DC higher than 20. The find traps spell overrides this. The fact that being a rogue also overrides this doesn't change the default, so my argument holds.

    Quote Originally Posted by dancrilis View Post
    But that doesn't really matter, we will take your point as such given that Belkar did detect the poison and identify it should we assume he has an item of Detect Poison and has ranks in Craft: Alchemy.
    Or you could say that he successfully read the label on the bottle. I'll admit I don't know what if any rules would govern such a feat, but we do know Belkar is literate.
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  15. - Top - End - #615
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVII - When you Wish upon a Stat...

    Quote Originally Posted by InvisibleBison View Post
    This doesn't actually disprove my statement. The default is that you can't find a trap with a Search DC higher than 20. The find traps spell overrides this. The fact that being a rogue also overrides this doesn't change the default, so my argument holds.
    Don't like Find Traps there is also atonement which allows you to change alignments - which you can do anyway.

    Or you could say that he successfully read the label on the bottle. I'll admit I don't know what if any rules would govern such a feat, but we do know Belkar is literate.
    Which goes back to Spot and the 'nice eye' comment, but you already said that: 'Identifying a poison is not something you can do with Spot'.

  16. - Top - End - #616
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVII - When you Wish upon a Stat...

    Quote Originally Posted by dancrilis View Post
    Don't like Find Traps there is also atonement which allows you to change alignments - which you can do anyway.
    Ordinarily, alignment changes take time. Atonement lets you change your alignment "drastically, suddenly, and definitively." The spell lets you do something you ordinarily can't do.


    Quote Originally Posted by dancrilis View Post
    Which goes back to Spot and the 'nice eye' comment, but you already said that: 'Identifying a poison is not something you can do with Spot'.
    Yeah, I don't think that Belkar is using any D&D rules when he recognizes that poison, because none of the rules I'm aware of really fit the scene.
    Last edited by InvisibleBison; 2020-07-29 at 06:38 PM.
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  17. - Top - End - #617
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVII - When you Wish upon a Stat...

    Quote Originally Posted by InvisibleBison View Post
    Ordinarily, alignment changes take time. Atonement lets you change your alignment "drastically, suddenly, and definitively." The spell lets you do something you ordinarily can't do.
    The spell specifically says:
    Note: Normally, changing alignment is up to the player. This use of atonement simply offers a believable way for a character to change his or her alignment drastically, suddenly, and definitively.
    The fact that it might not be believable does without magic does not mean it is not possible without magic.

    Yeah, I don't think that Belkar is using any D&D rules when he recognizes that poison, because none of the rules I'm aware of really fit the scene.
    I would disagree - in general I would say Craft: Alchemy works for it based on Detect Poison, otherwise Alchemists cannot recognise the poisons they made.

    But if you want to a more technical answer backed by the SRD.
    Profession: Alchemist - for 'an aptitude in a vocation requiring a broader range of less specific* knowledge' or 'and how to handle common problems' which identifying poison likely falls under for an alchemist.
    *less specific in this case meaning less specific then a Craft skill.

    Edit: Or the aforementioned Detect Poison item and the Craft: Aclhemy skill.
    Last edited by dancrilis; 2020-07-29 at 06:57 PM.

  18. - Top - End - #618
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVII - When you Wish upon a Stat...

    How could Roy identify a greatsword? To the best of my knowledge, there are no rules for identifying greatswords.

    Belkar identified a poison in a poison bottled labelled with the symbol of poison. If there were some unknown liquid in a cup, sure, alchemy check or spell or whatever. But a bottle with skull and crossbones on the label? Nobody would need to make a roll for that at my table.
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  19. - Top - End - #619
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVII - When you Wish upon a Stat...

    Quote Originally Posted by dancrilis View Post
    The spell specifically says:

    The fact that it might not be believable does without magic does not mean it is not possible without magic.
    My argument has never been that if a spell lets you do it then it's impossible to do without magic. My argument is that if a spell lets you do it then it's ordinarily impossible to do without magic. And indeed, the rules for changing alignment in the DMG say that alignment changes should normally be gradual - completely in accordance with my thesis.


    Quote Originally Posted by dancrilis View Post
    I would disagree - in general I would say Craft: Alchemy works for it based on Detect Poison, otherwise Alchemists cannot recognise the poisons they made.

    But if you want to a more technical answer backed by the SRD.
    Profession: Alchemist - for 'an aptitude in a vocation requiring a broader range of less specific* knowledge' or 'and how to handle common problems' which identifying poison likely falls under for an alchemist.
    *less specific in this case meaning less specific then a Craft skill.

    Edit: Or the aforementioned Detect Poison item and the Craft: Aclhemy skill.
    Okay, so do you think that Belkar, who for most of his life would be best described as a peripatetic serial killer, at some point decided to take some ranks in Profession (alchemist)? That strikes me as too absurd to be true.
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  20. - Top - End - #620
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVII - When you Wish upon a Stat...

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    How could Roy identify a greatsword? To the best of my knowledge, there are no rules for identifying greatswords.

    Belkar identified a poison in a poison bottled labelled with the symbol of poison. If there were some unknown liquid in a cup, sure, alchemy check or spell or whatever. But a bottle with skull and crossbones on the label? Nobody would need to make a roll for that at my table.
    I will point out that most of my post that kicked this off was on spot checks and I said 'also there is possibly a case for him having Craft: Alchemy' highlighted for clarity, which I still think there is a case for.

    But on the bottle there was a symbol of poison but the interactions - to me at least - were not 'whoa random poison' and more 'whoa very high end poison' essentially if it is the first then fine poison symbol untrained Knowledge: What The Hell He's Talking About check, but if it is the latter then it seems like some skill would be suitable.

    Quote Originally Posted by InvisibleBison View Post
    Okay, so do you think that Belkar, who for most of his life would be best described as a peripatetic serial killer, at some point decided to take some ranks in Profession (alchemist)? That strikes me as too absurd to be true.
    I suppose it could be part of his 'Profession: gourmet chef' training but I don't know if I would let profession stretch like that.

  21. - Top - End - #621
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVII - When you Wish upon a Stat...

    Quote Originally Posted by dancrilis View Post
    I will point out that most of my post that kicked this off was on spot checks and I said 'also there is possibly a case for him having Craft: Alchemy' highlighted for clarity, which I still think there is a case for.

    But on the bottle there was a symbol of poison but the interactions - to me at least - were not 'whoa random poison' and more 'whoa very high end poison' essentially if it is the first then fine poison symbol untrained Knowledge: What The Hell He's Talking About check, but if it is the latter then it seems like some skill would be suitable.


    I suppose it could be part of his 'Profession: gourmet chef' training but I don't know if I would let profession stretch like that.
    I wasn't calling anyone out in particular so much as the debate in general.

    Also, this is just a headcanon, but I choose to believe he could tell how nice a poison it was because of how nice the bottle was, due to his Profession: Gourmet Chef skill letting him identify nice bottles.
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  22. - Top - End - #622
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVII - When you Wish upon a Stat...

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    I wasn't calling anyone out in particular so much as the debate in general.
    I wasn't intended to sound offended if it came across that way (frankly I have been concerned that some of this might have been verging into off topic areas on DnD rules rather then what characters should have) - its just I have posted a number of things on this trend recently(ish) and most of them have not warrented a comment (at least one of which made it into the character sheets), this is the first thing I can remember recently where there has been any sort of pushback ... which I find weird (not bad just weird).

  23. - Top - End - #623
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVII - When you Wish upon a Stat...

    Quote Originally Posted by InvisibleBison View Post
    Okay, so do you think that Belkar, who for most of his life would be best described as a peripatetic serial killer, at some point decided to take some ranks in Profession (alchemist)? That strikes me as too absurd to be true.
    I'm not taking any stance on the larger issue, but it strikes me as pretty believable that Belkar, as a serial killer who could plausibly claim to be familiar with various poisons, might have dabbled in the poison-related parts of alchemy at some point.
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  24. - Top - End - #624
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVII - When you Wish upon a Stat...

    Quote Originally Posted by Emanick View Post
    I'm not taking any stance on the larger issue, but it strikes me as pretty believable that Belkar, as a serial killer who could plausibly claim to be familiar with various poisons, might have dabbled in the poison-related parts of alchemy at some point.
    I agree, but dabbling in poison use is not the same thing as learning how to run an alchemy store.
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  25. - Top - End - #625
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVII - When you Wish upon a Stat...

    Quote Originally Posted by InvisibleBison View Post
    I agree, but dabbling in poison use is not the same thing as learning how to run an alchemy store.
    Sure, but last I checked (and it's entirely possible that things have since changed), the study of poisons is a significant segment of alchemy. My understanding of the 3.x skill system is that studying any portion of a skill extensively generally gives you ranks in that skill as a whole, even if your field of interest is in fact narrower than that. Roy, for instance, would likely get ranks in Knowledge (architecture and engineering) even if he had studied bridges exclusively.

    It's not a perfect system, obviously, but it's not entirely unrealistic either. It's difficult to study most fields without gaining some knowledge of related subjects.

    Besides - and again, I haven't looked into it enough to actually take a firm position on whether Belkar has ranks in Profession (alchemist) - I don't think anyone is arguing that Belkar has anything close to max ranks in the skill. If he has any, it's probably something like 4.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Player: Bob twists the vault door super hard, that should open it.
    DM: Why would you think that?
    Player: Well, Bob thinks it. And since Bob has high Int and Wis, and a lot of points in Dungeoneering, he would probably know a thing or two about how to open vault doors.
    Ah yes, the Dungeon-Kruger effect.

  26. - Top - End - #626
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVII - When you Wish upon a Stat...

    Craft(Alchemy) needs you to be a spellcaster right? Belkar technically has spells, he just can’t use them because his Wisdom is too low.
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  27. - Top - End - #627
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVII - When you Wish upon a Stat...

    Craft (alchemy) does not require a character to be a spellcaster, but all of the example items given for the skill can only be made by a spellcaster, so it's probably a questionable choice of skill for someone who cannot cast.

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVII - When you Wish upon a Stat...

    Quote Originally Posted by Kurald Galain View Post
    Should she have Knowledge: Nature (knows dogs can't eat chocolate) and Knowledge: Local (No Ranks) (doesn't know humans can't shoot lightning), panel 11 for both.

  29. - Top - End - #629
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVII - When you Wish upon a Stat...

    Belkar probably has ranks in a section that lets him know more about poisons for murderin' sake. If Alchemy is the best one, then he probably has a rank or two there. The "Roy could have ranks in Architecture even if he's only researched bridges" argument holds up pretty well.
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVII - When you Wish upon a Stat...

    I just noticed that Xykon has Shapechange added to his spell list. If this is so, that makes four 9th level spells (after Energy Drain, Meteor Swarm, and Soul Bind), and the normal maximum for Sorcerers is three 9th level spells, so can we list him as having taken Spell Knowledge, and does that have implications for his minimum level? Does this confirm Xykon as 24+? Or is there another way for him to have an extra 9th level spell?
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