Goblins XVII: The shocking end of the story arc

[Fyraltari]

Were the watches raised? They're all standing up with no worries now, in the same spot where they couldn't one strip ago.

Vorpal had to extend his arm to touch one but Complains wasn't even fully standing up when he touched his. Maybe they're not all level?

[Lacco]

Maybe the clocks are sentient and able to manipulate the stuff they are hanging on.

Or Complains just failed his DEX roll or something. Y'know, it's just a game.

Also: holy monty haul! Lucky they are not PCs, my players would most probably rip me a new one if I left the room for few hours just to make sure one of them got a level up and beat an angelic being alone while being level 5.

[Morgaln]

What is this, the "onscreen-character-development-is-stupid-room?" Because tell don't show works so much better in a visual medium? What a bore.

Also, I'm not surprised they can suddenly stand among watches that they previously had to crawl under. Elli never was able to have consistent surroundings in the comic, she always blatantly changed stuff whenever she wanted. If there even was any background and not just featureless expanses in uniform colors, that is.

[John Cribati]

The watches obviously change positions due to some likely obnoxiously complicated mechanism.

[Keltest]

What is this, the "onscreen-character-development-is-stupid-room?" Because tell don't show works so much better in a visual medium? What a bore.

Also, I'm not surprised they can suddenly stand among watches that they previously had to crawl under. Elli never was able to have consistent surroundings in the comic, she always blatantly changed stuff whenever she wanted. If there even was any background and not just featureless expanses in uniform colors, that is.

Where is the character development that happened off screen? They apparently know something we dont, but that hardly equates to character development. They dont seem to have changed or grown, at least not yet.

[John Cribati]

An unfortunately large number of people believe that getting more powerful equates to character development, actually.

[Vinyadan]

An unfortunately large number of people believe that getting more powerful equates to character development, actually.

It may also be a mixup with stories like Dragonball, where becoming stronger often is the plot device to solve a problem.

I think that this particular chapter we are reading would have looked a lot better, if it had been available all in one shot. Then there would have been some confusion about what was going on, followed by visualisation (I expect to see at least one goblin's voyage to this angel).

[Morgaln]

Where is the character development that happened off screen? They apparently know something we dont, but that hardly equates to character development. They dont seem to have changed or grown, at least not yet.

Vorpal deciding he doesn't want to be called Fumbles anymore.
Complains becoming chief and accepting the role.

Both of these are character development. Their level gains have nothing to do with that. Not to mention that the whole point of making Vorpal teller was that he could perform the chiefing ceremony, so that's a whole plotline just abandoned in an offscreen development.

[DaFlipp]

Vorpal deciding he doesn't want to be called Fumbles anymore.
Complains becoming chief and accepting the role.

Both of these are character development. Their level gains have nothing to do with that. Not to mention that the whole point of making Vorpal teller was that he could perform the chiefing ceremony, so that's a whole plotline just abandoned in an offscreen development.

The chapter is still ongoing, for crying out loud. Just because we haven't been "shown" any of this yet doesn't mean it won't get flashed back to or otherwise fleshed out. Not all narratives stick rigidly to displaying every event as it happens in precise chronological order.

My guess is that things have happened this way thus far to show us what it would feel like for the not-yet-clock-zapped goblins. If we'd followed Fumbles from the beginning, it wouldn't have been nearly as funny to see Thaco's mounting confusion/frustration in this update, since we - like him - are wondering JUST WHAT THE SLIPPERY HELL ARE THEY TALKING ABOUT.

Now, if in a few weeks/months every character has touched a clock and gotten an upgrade and an offscreen personal epiphany, you're welcome to feel vindicated, but this is clearly still an ongoing story that has made a choice to not display everything upfront. Frankly, as someone who occasionally has trouble with the pacing of some of the bigger battles in this webcomic (especially when they're being updated in real time, generally easier to go through in the archives), I'm more than happy to see how this plays out differently this time.

[Lacco]

Vorpal deciding he doesn't want to be called Fumbles anymore.
Complains becoming chief and accepting the role.

Both of these are character development. Their level gains have nothing to do with that. Not to mention that the whole point of making Vorpal teller was that he could perform the chiefing ceremony, so that's a whole plotline just abandoned in an offscreen development.

Next, on Goblins: Thaco is dead, the stone stuff has a body and Ears gets some replacement ears and will fall.

With Vorpal I accept. Did Complains accept the role...? Or was it just pushed on him?

Him accepting the role would actually lead to some development outside of "flashy effects sans substance".

Also: I'm pretty sure they'll show us the angelic being all angry and stuff, trying to kill the party, but am pretty sure we'll not get too much information about what actually happened. The author does not usually do flashbacks outside of single/double panel stuff.

[Draconi Redfir]

Fumbles had to stand up and actively reach up to touch a watch (bottom left panel) previously. it might be less that they were required to crawl, and more that they decided to crawl to avoid any accidents like Complains had. they're just letting their guard down now.

also probably some degree of the art changing over time due to time, like how if you draw an image, then copy that image, then throw out the first and copy the copy, you'll eventually end up with an image that looks much different then the original as you slowly built on small mistakes and errors, or subconsciously made small changes as you got better at drawing the same image again and again.

[tomaO2]

10 days since the last one. That makes 7 updates of her new, faster, scheduling. Good on her.

So, just one level bonus huh? I'm not super familiar with the challenge rating of hell, but I'd imagine it's pretty high. On the other hand, that angel horn might be like some sort of demon super weapon that can one shot them all. Elli really loves giving overpowered weapons.

Anyone got an idea of what Not Walter's level might be around? Would he be the highest level monster we've seen so far, or would it be Kore? What is the estimated level of Kore again? Don't really respect Kore as much as a powerhouse anymore, I'll admit.

I was really hoping that this whole "I'm every class" nonsense would be dealt with by now. It doesn't make any sense, and I haven't seen it benefit Vorpal at all. Also, has he always had such mismatched eyes? I don't recall ever really noticing how much bigger the left one is.

Another question, does Complains get the full benefits of being the Chief, or are the bonuses still divided between him and Thaco? It was a big plot point that the bonuses were divided up due to the gods wanting Thaco to be chief, I feel like Elli just completely dropped that plot point, along with the whole, "can never be a goblin for stealing from the treasure box" thing. It's been so long now, but I'm sure she said there was an actual reason for goblins to not take those items, and Complains broke the taboo. It just feels wrong to make him chief.

I honestly feel that Thaco should have been made Chief, saying he's too old is just a lame excuse. Guy is good enough to be in the party, he's good enough to be chief. Complains has never distinguished himself as a leader anyway.

[Draconi Redfir]

[FONT=Comic Sans MS] Also, has he always had such mismatched eyes? I don't recall ever really noticing how much bigger the left one is.

h'uh, never noticed that either... thought it might have been a result of the Teller ceremony (Bottom of page, both eyes seem the same) but two pages later, his right eye is larger

Best i can guess is it's an artistic choice to replace his previous wall-eyed ness, which i think was intended as a visual representation / cause of of his fumbling nature. Perhaps at some point down the line someone was worried having him be wall-eyed could be seen as offensive so it was changed.

Another question, does Complains get the full benefits of being the Chief, or are the bonuses still divided between him and Thaco? It was a big plot point that the bonuses were divided up due to the gods wanting Thaco to be chief, I feel like Elli just completely dropped that plot point, along with the whole, "can never be a goblin for stealing from the treasure box" thing. It's been so long now, but I'm sure she said there was an actual reason for goblins to not take those items, and Complains broke the taboo. It just feels wrong to make him chief.

I honestly feel that Thaco should have been made Chief, saying he's too old is just a lame excuse. Guy is good enough to be in the party, he's good enough to be chief. Complains has never distinguished himself as a leader anyway.

there were divided benifits of being cheif? i thought it was just a case of Cheif not being a good cheif because he wasn't destined to be one.

in either case, Complains IS Thaco's son, just as Cheif was werebear's son. and IIRC usually the line is passed from father to son. so it's possible it's fine now, as he's not only Thaco's son, but also the chosen of Cheif (With the handprint and all)

[tomaO2]

There are stat bonuses for being raised to the chief and teller positions. This is not hereditary. Only one goblin is allowed to have it. Ergo, since Thaco is not dead, the bonus he possesses cannot transfer over, meanwhile, the bonus that Chief had, would.

I'm quite sure I recall a mention somewhere that, due to teller picking a chief that wasn't chosen by the gods, Chief only got half the typical chief bonus, with the remainder going to Thaco, the chosen chief of the gods. It was their way of signaling their disapproval of the Teller's choice.

Unfortunately, I can't citation this. The two times talking about Chief that I recall happened during book 2. The first was Chief during his talk to Complains, and the second was Thaco telling Complains that he was supposed to be chief. Hell, it seems that this is the first time I've even mentioned my memory of this divided bonus when I do a search on my post history. I would guess I read it in one of the Goblins forums then. All the old ones are deleted though...

I guess I could be wrong, and even if I'm not, it doesn't seem to matter in any meaningful way. Okay then, no divided bonus is just easier to go with.

[Keltest]

Thaco doesnt have any chief bonuses that im aware of. He never went through the ceremony. Any powers that it confers went totally unclaimed until Complains apparently did the ceremony just now. If you can find an interview, great, but otherwise i think youre just misremembering.

[Vinyadan]

Thaco doesnt have any chief bonuses that im aware of. He never went through the ceremony. Any powers that it confers went totally unclaimed until Complains apparently did the ceremony just now. If you can find an interview, great, but otherwise i think youre just misremembering.

The only power I can rememeber is talking to Maglubyet, and Complains did do that to start the Teller ceremony. I wonder if it was just because he was already chosen as chief, and any Goblin could have.

[The Glyphstone]

https://www.goblinscomic.com/comic/page-21

How many of the foreshadowing prophecies here have been fulfilled? "The Ears Will Not Hear" could be Big Ears' mutilation, and "The Levels Are Gained Outside of Time" just happened.

[Anteros]

https://www.goblinscomic.com/comic/page-21

How many of the foreshadowing prophecies here have been fulfilled? "The Ears Will Not Hear" could be Big Ears' mutilation, and "The Levels Are Gained Outside of Time" just happened.

Levels gained outside of time could also apply to Kin, or even Minmax and Forgath in the dungeon where time doesn't pass. She saw but misunderstood has probably been fulfilled. The name is not right could apply to Fumbles.

[Keltest]

Levels gained outside of time could also apply to Kin, or even Minmax and Forgath in the dungeon where time doesn't pass. She saw but misunderstood has probably been fulfilled. The name is not right could apply to Fumbles.

Or to Chief for that matter.

... Prophecy is kind of annoying.

[PontificatusRex]

What is this, the "onscreen-character-development-is-stupid-room?" Because tell don't show works so much better in a visual medium? What a bore.

My guess is we're going to see where Complains and Vorpal have gone once, when one of the other two get there. Showing it four times would be repetitive, and this way it's building up some suspense and speculation as to "What the heck is happening here?" I think this method is more interesting than showing it with the first character to go and then having the next three relate what happened on their trip.

[Draconi Redfir]

plus if we did flash to complains or vorpal going in and seeing their entire ordeal, then everyone would be shouting "wHeN dO wE gEt To ThE oThEr GoBlInS!/?1?1!?" the entire time.

don't say it wouldn't happen.

[Anteros]

plus if we did flash to complains or vorpal going in and seeing their entire ordeal, then everyone would be shouting "wHeN dO wE gEt To ThE oThEr GoBlInS!/?1?1!?" the entire time.

don't say it wouldn't happen.

Yes, well. I won't say it wouldn't happen if you won't say that it is necessarily unjustified given the absolutely glacial pace of the plot. We're talking about a story that once took 4 years (ish) to advance the story by one sentence. ("Hi names, remember me?)

When the pacing of your story is completely out of balance and awful, you can't blame the readers for not giving the benefit of the doubt that all plot points will be covered in due time.

[John Cribati]

We're talking about a story that once took 4 years (ish) to advance the story by one sentence. ("Hi names, remember me?)

Most people would argue that that's an issue with the update schedule, not the pacing. Only one of those has literary merit.

[Dragonus45]

Most people would argue that that's an issue with the update schedule, not the pacing. Only one of those has literary merit.

Yea during occasional rereads I find the pacing always feels good.

[sihnfahl]

Elli really loves giving overpowered weapons.

The DM (Herbert). The premise of the world created is that it's so brutal that low-level characters are rerolled faster than a craps table at Vegas.

So the DM, tired of having all those rerolls, instead of changing the difficulty of the world, just throws magic items with bonuses willy-nilly...

[Anteros]

Most people would argue that that's an issue with the update schedule, not the pacing. Only one of those has literary merit.

That is true if you're releasing finished products. When you choose to release your story in an episodic form, and your readers are consuming the story in little bites then you do have to consider long chronological gaps in between story events as a pacing issue.

[John Cribati]

That is true if you're releasing finished products. When you choose to release your story in an episodic form, and your readers are consuming the story in little bites then you do have to consider long chronological gaps in between story events as a pacing issue.

I guess everyone currently following the comic has been doing so since the very day that Elli posted the first comic, and nobody ever goes through the archive from the beginning. There's also no chance that the story can be compiled in any other way, such as a printed graphic novel or, like, an animated series.

[Willie the Duck]

The DM (Herbert). The premise of the world created is that it's so brutal that low-level characters are rerolled faster than a craps table at Vegas.
So the DM, tired of having all those rerolls, instead of changing the difficulty of the world, just throws magic items with bonuses willy-nilly...

Looking at it compared to actual 3e D&D, it's actually relatively sparse in magic items handed out. What it notably does is have most of the stuff handed out be big, flashy, mostly-weapons. Interestingly the Goblins theoretically should have more protective things than they do (armor, rings of protection+1, Con boosters, etc.). Of course, dodging attacks looks better in visual mediums, so it makes sense that this world work slightly differently.

That is true if you're releasing finished products. When you choose to release your story in an episodic form, and your readers are consuming the story in little bites then you do have to consider long chronological gaps in between story events as a pacing issue.

I guess everyone currently following the comic has been doing so since the very day that Elli posted the first comic, and nobody ever goes through the archive from the beginning. There's also no chance that the story can be compiled in any other way, such as a printed graphic novel or, like, an animated series.

It's not like either of you are wrong. The product exists outside of its release schedule, and will later readers will care more about the in-strip pacing instead of the release schedule. On the other hand, like a 20th century TV show, webcomics tend to have most of their viewership during first release. Those of us partaking now are probably 50%+ of those who will ever partake of the project. It behooves a creator to consider both concerns. Elli's release rate has definitely caused some people not to stick around to this point. That's something she has to plan around. Of course, those that have stuck with at this point are probably ready for said situation.

[John Cribati]

All I'm really saying is that it doesn't make sense to me for someone to complain about "pacing" as a literary issue in terms of the amount of real time it takes, because that really exists outside of the story itself. If you want to say it took too many pages to resolve "Hello names. remember me?" then fine, but the amount of time it takes depends entirely on when someone started reading.

[Vinyadan]

All I'm really saying is that it doesn't make sense to me for someone to complain about "pacing" as a literary issue in terms of the amount of real time it takes, because that really exists outside of the story itself. If you want to say it took too many pages to resolve "Hello names. remember me?" then fine, but the amount of time it takes depends entirely on when someone started reading.

My problem with "Hello Names" is different.

Let's look at MM's party. The Maze was built in such a way that it could only be successfully concluded. Since this is a boring premise, we need a way to invalidate it: so we get the psion, who can violate the Maze's rules and annihilate everything inside it. However, MM was the only person who could reasonably have said "Hello Names", which means that MM getting out of the Maze was a foregone conclusion, meaning that the psion was certainly going to fail.

Could this have been salvaged somehow? I think yes. Have MM leave the Maze through a means like the Teapot (not necessarily under his own will), while Kin and Forgath are still inside. Then Forgath and Kin would have been at danger of annihilation, and you could have had the two plots advance at the same time. (This could have caused the necklace plot to disappear, but I didn't like it anyway, there just wasn't sufficient buildup for something like that.)