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2020-08-28, 02:16 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Remember when Xykon killed a bunch of self-righteous Paladins...
...yes? Hinjo trusts Roy, because Roy was willing to risk his life to stop Miko. Hinjo does not know about the Cliffport business. As far as Hinjo knows, Roy's intel correlates with what the diviners scried.
Ironically, for once, the Sapphire Guard had clear, trustworthy intel, and the paladins are 'justified' in attacking because Xykon invaded their city with a massive army.
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2020-08-28, 02:28 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2020
Re: Remember when Xykon killed a bunch of self-righteous Paladins...
Last edited by Metastachydium; 2020-08-28 at 02:30 PM.
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2020-08-28, 02:36 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Remember when Xykon killed a bunch of self-righteous Paladins...
1. Okay.
2. They don't actually know that. They do know Xykon, who is the strongest being on their planet, is trying to take control of a gate, the key to wiping out the world. They also know the Evil God of Goblins, who won't even talk to their Evil Gods, is helping him. That's an existential threat. We also know that it is an existential threat, Xykon as a kind of reality bomb to threaten the world with, Redcloak as a reality bomb to threaten the universe with.
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2020-08-28, 02:49 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2020
Re: Remember when Xykon killed a bunch of self-righteous Paladins...
(probably)
the strongest being on their planet, is trying to take control of a gate, the key to wiping out the world. They also know the Evil God of Goblins, who won't even talk to their Evil Gods, is helping him. That's an existential threat. We also know that it is an existential threat, Xykon as a kind of reality bomb to threaten the world with, Redcloak as a reality bomb to threaten the universe with.doesdid the Sapphire Guard really know about the Bearers and the Mantle?
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2020-08-28, 03:09 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2009
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- Somewhere in Utah...
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Re: Remember when Xykon killed a bunch of self-righteous Paladins...
Last edited by Jason; 2020-08-28 at 03:14 PM. Reason: Crimson Mantle seems the proper name
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2020-08-28, 03:15 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2005
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- Vancouver, BC, Canada
Re: Remember when Xykon killed a bunch of self-righteous Paladins...
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2020-08-28, 03:28 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2017
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- France
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Re: Remember when Xykon killed a bunch of self-righteous Paladins...
Miko believed Redcloak was actually trying to destroy the world.
I think it's fair to say that if Shojo had known what Team Evil was trying to achieve by taking over a gate he'd have told Roy.Forum Wisdom
Mage avatar by smutmulch & linklele.
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2020-08-28, 07:41 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2009
Re: Remember when Xykon killed a bunch of self-righteous Paladins...
Hinjo also heard that Roy and Shojo rigged a trial involving the Gate - he placed a lot of trust on the fact that Roy saved his life if he had been mistaken and Roy was running a con he would have doomed his city and everyone in it (not any more doomed then it was I will admit but still).
Ironically, for once, the Sapphire Guard had clear, trustworthy intel, and the paladins are 'justified' in attacking because Xykon invaded their city with a massive army.
More meant onscreen - I just find it a little odd that we have went closing on 800 strips since the main villain (a man known for killing on a whim) has actually killed anyone that we know about - not bad or good (actually I quite I have a theory which I quite like so maybe a little good) but somewhat odd.
Spoiler: Theory Time/SOD
Xykon hates Redcloak - he holds Redcloak responsible for stealing one of the few simple pleasures he had from him, and so his casual slaughter of goblins was entirely to do with making Redcloak suffer.
Redcloak didn't really care about the Hobgoblins as people (not caring with Jirix died for instance) so Xykon saw no point in killing them or tormenting them.
As such Xykon's early characterization of murderer on a whim is not actually who he is really - he did a bit of that as a human, but I mean more recently.
As for monsters having INT 3 - that would be risky, INT 3 creatures are people and tasking people to defend your secret Gate which you don't want people to know about could backfire.
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2020-08-28, 07:58 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2019
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Re: Remember when Xykon killed a bunch of self-righteous Paladins...
It is not unreasonable for Hinjo to trust Roy for saving his life at a huge risk. Yes, Roy could be running a long con that bet the lives of thousands, but then that person would not be Roy.
He might have been their discuss terms they don't know they never asked - they assumed that he was an evil lich seeking to conquer their city and sieze control of the Gate they had sworn to defend (and to an extent they were right) but they should perhaps have checked before taking their assumption as fact.
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2020-08-28, 08:12 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2018
Re: Remember when Xykon killed a bunch of self-righteous Paladins...
If you follow this line of reasoning too strictly you end up with the idea that you always have to let the enemy get the first strike in just in case every single clue you've received about their intentions has been wrong. On paper, very noble, in practice, a terrible idea.
When a humongous hobgoblin army is attacking the city and an Evil sorcerer lich enters your throne room by breaking through the window and all your intel states that the same hobgoblin army attacking your city is accompanied by an Evil sorcerer lich (which is a very rare creature indeed, so the odds of it being a different Evil sorcerer lich are close to zero)... you have enough reason to believe that if you don't attack immediately you're going to regret it dearly. 100% certainty is impossible but 99% certainty is good enough.
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2020-08-28, 10:04 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2020
Re: Remember when Xykon killed a bunch of self-righteous Paladins...
Not that this discussion isn't entirely insane in trying to paint the paladins as in the wrong, but Xykon was literally leading an invading army and everyone in Azure City knew that. And he'd already killed Roy and the seer woman before he got to the throne room anyway.
To quote Inigo Montoya: You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means. (On thread OP's use of "self-righteous')Last edited by WanderingMist; 2020-08-28 at 10:05 PM.
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2020-08-28, 10:08 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2009
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2020-08-28, 10:17 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2020
Re: Remember when Xykon killed a bunch of self-righteous Paladins...
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2020-08-28, 10:19 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2009
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2020-08-28, 10:23 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2019
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2020-08-28, 10:24 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2009
Re: Remember when Xykon killed a bunch of self-righteous Paladins...
Gravity - it kills because it hates.
Edit:
Spoiler: SOD
Although in that case Right-Eye survived and then died after - so he didn't really die from the fall so much as from the damage from either the fall or from the spell it would be uncertain which was more responsible.
Last edited by dancrilis; 2020-08-28 at 10:31 PM.
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2020-08-28, 10:41 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2009
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- Birmingham, AL
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Re: Remember when Xykon killed a bunch of self-righteous Paladins...
Last edited by Peelee; 2020-08-28 at 10:41 PM.
Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.
Number of times Roland St. Jude has sworn revenge upon me: 1
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2020-08-28, 10:51 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2019
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Re: Remember when Xykon killed a bunch of self-righteous Paladins...
Spoiler: sod
He died from the fall, since if the spell did him in then he'd be a pile of dust.
But I mean, he didn't say "Goodbye...gravity" and made Redcloak have a perpetual expression.
Are you saying that it was the knife that did Nale in, and not Tarquin?
Or Malack's fangs?
Or Kubota's ring?
Or Redcloak's homebrewed implosion spell?Last edited by understatement; 2020-08-28 at 10:51 PM.
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2020-08-28, 10:53 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2009
Re: Remember when Xykon killed a bunch of self-righteous Paladins...
I disagree - to kill with a bullet you would need to roll to hit and then damage, benefiting from any feats or class abilities that you have etc, where if falling damage kills someone that is not really about you at all and the DM (representing gravity) likely rolls the damage for that.
The spell deals damage whether you make a save or not and that it knocked him out of the air might mean he was knocked to negative hitpoints by it.Last edited by dancrilis; 2020-08-28 at 10:54 PM.
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2020-08-28, 10:55 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2018
Re: Remember when Xykon killed a bunch of self-righteous Paladins...
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2020-08-28, 11:04 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2009
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- Birmingham, AL
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Re: Remember when Xykon killed a bunch of self-righteous Paladins...
Ah, you want to keep it in game terms then. Fine, the force is what killed the person, not the wizard who cast Magic Missile at the person. Roy got torn up with the Meteor Swarm and Sangwaan got mauled by a dragon. The falling damage was the icing on the cake (a cake which the baker deliberately smashed the icing dispenser, flinging the icing through the air, and then claimed that it was gravity that made such messy icing and not the baker).
Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.
Number of times Roland St. Jude has sworn revenge upon me: 1
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2020-08-28, 11:27 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2009
Re: Remember when Xykon killed a bunch of self-righteous Paladins...
I almost got into a whole intent element piece in the last post.
i.e pushing someone off a building and letting falling damage kill them would count as you killing them with falling damage, but pushing someone out off a building because you are running past them and not paying attention would not could as you killing them. But wasn't able to formulate it in a way that seemed sane and reasonable to present (and still haven't).
Or in 241 I think if the Dwarf had lit the fuse he would be responsible for the fire, but I am dubious about passing responsibility to Belkar for effectively doing it by accident.
Xykon's case is more slippery (and the thinking is slippery enough already) - i.e if Roy or Sangwaan had survived then Xykon wouldn't have cared so I am dubious if he intended to kill them rather then merely get them out of his way but the actions he took to remove them were not accidental.
Meh I will either think about it some more or move on to something else.
On the topic of something else I quite like this topic - it has not even been two pages and already I have went through at least three pieces of oddness: Xykon might have bluffed the paladins into killing themselves, The paladins might have been wrong to attack him, He might not be responsible for the deaths of Roy and Sangwaan.
If it continues like this who knows what I might come up with.
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2020-08-28, 11:37 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2009
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Re: Remember when Xykon killed a bunch of self-righteous Paladins...
I'm cutting off the rest of your post because I can address it all with this part. I think the reason you're having trouble is because of focus on the wrong word. Both of those examples are of one person killing another. One of them is murder, however, and one is not, and I suspect that is what you're trying to get at. Xykon definitely killed Roy and Sangwaan. I would even go so far as to say he definitely murdered them - he almost certainly had intent. Whether he cared or not about actually doing it successfully is irrelevant. Similarly, you can absolutely kill someone entirely by accident and with no actual blame.
But Xykon killed Roy and Sangwaan.Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.
Number of times Roland St. Jude has sworn revenge upon me: 1
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2020-08-29, 02:19 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2019
Re: Remember when Xykon killed a bunch of self-righteous Paladins...
Why ? Xykon is a lich. Not a person, and not able to do good or be nice for the sake of being nice, like all undeads he’s “nothing but bits of skin and bone and dark energy, glued together by magic into the shape of a man.” He’s quite literally made of Evil, he doesn’t have the ability to do good. A lich, and any other undead, like Malack, is fundamentally a threat to everything alive and/or Good, whatever they may say.
Last edited by Theshipening; 2020-08-29 at 02:20 AM.
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2020-08-29, 03:32 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2013
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2020-08-29, 03:58 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2020
Re: Remember when Xykon killed a bunch of self-righteous Paladins...
Mhm, I see. Thanks.
An idea which Redcloak basically dismissed on the same panel.
I think it's fair to say that if Shojo had known what Team Evil was trying to achieve by taking over a gate he'd have told Roy.Last edited by Metastachydium; 2020-08-29 at 03:59 AM.
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2020-08-29, 04:05 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2017
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Re: Remember when Xykon killed a bunch of self-righteous Paladins...
Last edited by Fyraltari; 2020-08-29 at 08:01 AM.
Forum Wisdom
Mage avatar by smutmulch & linklele.
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2020-08-29, 07:38 AM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2009
Re: Remember when Xykon killed a bunch of self-righteous Paladins...
I don't think so - I think my problem is I mentioned that they were killed by gravity as half a joke, and now I am trying to logic my way into some sound arguement were the half that isn't a joke holds up ... and I am not sure that such a path exists.
There is nothing that forces Xykon to be Evil - if he wanted he could change his ways and become perhaps the greatest force for good on the mortal plane.
He is very much a person.
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2020-08-29, 07:46 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2015
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Re: Remember when Xykon killed a bunch of self-righteous Paladins...
Liches are explicitly free-willed. Xykon is a person who chooses to be Evil. Also, I wouldn't quote Redcloak on what undead are — he tries to convince himself that Xykon is just a tool that he controls, but that's mostly self-delusion. Redcloak can say anything he wants about using sentient undead as tools, but he's spent most of his life using living goblinoids exactly the same way.
ungelic is us
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2020-08-29, 07:59 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2019
Re: Remember when Xykon killed a bunch of self-righteous Paladins...
Sure, but Vampires are explicitly free-willed too and yet they are inherently Evil. Because they, like Liches and other undeads, are quite literally made of Evil Stuff (Hell, when Good Durkon takes over Greg, he “c'n feel tha negative energy squrimin' around.” and knows it probably won’t last long).
I personally believe that vampires and liches are free-willed the same way a Fiend or Celestial (or a God even) is. They can make their own choices and all, but within certain limitations, because they’re still fundamentally Good or Evil or whatever, since they are made of Good/Evil/whatever stuff.Last edited by Theshipening; 2020-08-29 at 08:00 AM.