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2020-12-10, 11:51 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VIII
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2020-12-11, 01:00 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VIII
Undead are spiritually stagnant, true. But anyone considering undeath as a means of eternal existence isn't particularly concerned about their god's opinion on their soul, methinks. And while undead may get set in their ways after a few centuries, that's not particularly noteworthy when outsiders have relatively fixed natures and venerable elves tend to get pretty curmudgeonly themselves.
Regarding petitioners, all of them feel the drive to come closer to their planes/powers and fuse with them, but not all of them are in a hurry. They've got eternity.
I may be mistaken, but I distinctly remember Libris Mortis mentioning that undead are in some way funnels to the Negative Plane.
But even within that section, it contradicts itself as to how harmful the "drain" is. It says "More precisely, they believe that undead on the Material Plane are linked to the Negative Energy Plane via a conduit, just as life itself somehow partakes of positive energy," which is the equal-and-opposite-to-a-living-being stance I referenced, and then it says "The very existence of even the weakest undead produces a constant drain on the energies of the Material Plane, which accounts for sensations of cold often attributed to the unliving," which is the funnel-of-negative-energy stance you mentioned...but even then, the drain is basically irrelevant because energy is flowing into the Material Plane from the Positive Energy Plane at the same time energy is flowing out to the Negative Energy Plane and, as Bohandas mentioned, any difference in energy level or flow rates is immaterial (heh) when dealing with infinite planes.
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2020-12-11, 01:58 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VIII
This. Honestly I'm not sure what significant difference there is between that and decomposition. It sounds like the same thing when you think about it. Doesn't it?
EDIT:
Or like being reincarnated as a rock or something like Scegf0d the Ungrateful from the old computer game AfterlifeLast edited by Bohandas; 2020-12-11 at 02:04 AM.
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2020-12-11, 04:17 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VIII
What happens if a crystal sphere lacks a god for some major concept. No sun god perhaps? Or no god of death>
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2020-12-13, 11:50 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VIII
Bearing in mind that I despise being asked to dig up references, and therefore am not likely to indulge another question like this in a hurry, you will find the Guardian of the Dead Gods detailed on pp. 38-39 of A Guide to the Astral Plane.
As covered by others above, nyet.
There are plenty of good and evil elemental deities. Pyremius, Kaelthiere, Laerme, Huehueteotl, Girru, Agni, Hastsezini, Surtr, Phaulkon, Hotoru, Qotal, Fei Lieng, Fien Po, Shu, Aerdrie Faenya, Lliendil, Habbakuk, Zeboim, Sebek, Naunet, I got bored and stopped listing.
The thing is, though, that by definition attributing "good" or "evil" (or law or chaos for that matter) to an element brings with it some association as to why that element is good or evil, and such deities tend to have their natures and portfolios evolve accordingly. Habbakuk is a good-aligned god of water who is seen as the facilitator of ocean travel and the giver of the sea's bounty, and is worshiped as a marine deity by sailors and fishermen. Zeboim is an evil-aligned water goddess, associated with storms, drowning, and the dark mysteries of the unfathomable depths; she is accordingly propitiated to spare those who must risk her capricious temperament from the worst of her wrath.
Remember that Charisma doesn't purely measure "attractiveness." A strong sense of self, self-worth, interpersonal magnetism... these are things that individual tieflings may certainly possess, but from birth they are "wrong" in ways that others pick up on, and often will experience difficulties feeling like they belong or are fully welcome in their birth societies, coupled with feelings such as shame, resentment, or fear of persecution. Not every tiefling will have these experiences, of course, but the trend is toward some awkward periods in childhood and adolescence that challenge the tiefling's ability to relate to others without resorting to aggressive methods (remembering that people can be aggressively nice/friendly just as easily as aggressively hostile/belligerent). Similar to half-orcs - a half-orc is stronger, generally taller, and theoretically more intimidating to the average human than another human would be, but the Charisma penalty indicates that when trying to intimidate, they either fail to sell the point (inexperience with interpersonal subtleties and how hard to push) or cross the line (provoking hostility with a naked threat when a veiled implication might have caused hesitation and a willingness to negotiate).
I mean, for one, it's not an afterlife. You don't get to experience what comes next - and you suffer the consequences of whatever mode of existence you've pursued instead.
Also, and I cannot stress this enough, the vast overwhelming majority of mortals have no knowledge of the Outer Planes or any of what awaits them beyond death. That's why it's "belief."
It annoys me that there's a perfect media depiction of why this makes sense and it's a huge spoiler for the series in question. To attempt to address without going there:
In the afterlife, you lose the physiological needs of a living being. Those no longer exist for you. You can choose to eat or drink, but not doing so lacks any consequence for you. You also have no need to concern yourself with shelter - you will not suffer the elements, you're not particularly required to sleep, and in most afterlives you don't have to concern yourself with predators or other risks to your person in a meaningful context. We're working our way up the pyramid of needs pretty fast. Being in the afterlife means you are "where you are belong" and "with those you belong with," which is the next step up, and the final two steps are esteem/accomplishment and self-actualization. The challenge here is that it's hard to have goals which have a real meaning, since you can't do anything that ripples back to the Material Plane.
So what's a soul to strive toward? Well, above his pyramid, Maslow put a sixth category: transcendence, which is the need to find meaning by giving oneself to something beyond oneself - shriven of upkeep-based needs and having moved beyond the state where specific tangible goals motivate you, the next step is wanting to have an impact on others based on their unfulfilled needs.
This might involve becoming an outsider and joining the hierarchy of divine servants, being tasked with purposes by a deity or cause you believe in; or it might involve merging, renewing the thing you believe in with your specific beliefs about it, and becoming part of a gestalt that makes those things real and possible.
Unless that portfolio originally existed within the divine corpus of that sphere, nothing relevant. If it did, and the god holding it has been destroyed or abdicated their post, there may be supernatural disruptions as the forces involved go undirected, depending on how the local overgod has set up divine responsibilities. In Realmspace, for instance, the gods have explicit responsibilities, and a missing or disrupted deity can play havoc with the concept they represent. Conversely, in Krynnspace, the gods have implicit responsibilities, and the concepts they represent can exist without divine curation.Need a place to hang? Like Discord? Don't mind dealing with a capricious demon lord? Then you're welcome to join our LGBTQ+ friendly, often silly, very geeky server to discuss food, music, video games, tabletop, and much more.
Manual of the Planes 5th Edition: for all the things the official 5E Planescape didn't cover. Check it out.
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2020-12-15, 05:07 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VIII
If there were a spell that lets you take a chunk of any substance and summon an elemental of it, and someone were to use a Calling spell plus some violence to obtain a chunk of demoinc flesh, then used the hypothetical spell I mentioned to make an "Abyss Elemental" then...
...How would such an elemental look and act?
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2020-12-15, 04:02 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VIII
It wouldn't. The spell would fail. An [outer plane] elemental is an oxymoron. If somehow the spell worked, despite the fact that this is like trying to use electricity to make a mango's legs twitch like you would a dead frog's, you'd probably wind up summoning some existing Tanar'ri, since it's made up of the same manifested soul energy as the demon you called.
If such a spell created an elemental from the existing matter instead of summoning, and worked despite magic not working that way, which I think you're getting at, it would probably create some variety of Obyrith instead (assuming that using this on a piece of humanoid flesh would create a water elemental). Pure abyss-matter untouched by mortal souls is Obyrith. Enjoy the insanity.
Attempting the same on Devils would get you the scariest cease and desist order in the multiverse.
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2020-12-15, 04:21 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VIII
Assuming for a moment it was possible, and did work, I'd imagine the result could be something like a Demonically Infused Elemental (Dragon Compendium); or maybe an Elemental Demon (Dragon Compendium), or even a Taint Elemental (HoH)...
Last edited by Thurbane; 2020-12-15 at 04:25 PM.
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2020-12-16, 01:54 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VIII
So Pathfinder's Golarion has just as interesting a take on atheism as Faerun imo.
The goddess of the dead there throws atheist souls at the moon/god of ending the universe when he gets to close to drive him away and/or appease him.
Are there any other popular campaign settings that give atheists every specific very bad end for seemingly no reason?
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2020-12-16, 02:04 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VIII
I do not know about "popular", but in Tellene, a third-party setting, the souls of atheists are devoured by a giant sphere-of-annihilation-like phenomenon that grows with every devoured soul, eradicating a bit more of the (finite) space where the divine realms are. Logically, the deities take anyone they can justify in.
Last edited by Tzardok; 2020-12-16 at 03:37 PM.
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2020-12-16, 02:06 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VIII
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2020-12-16, 04:31 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VIII
At least one planescape book says that Asmodeus gets all atheists.
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2020-12-16, 04:36 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VIII
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2020-12-17, 03:46 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VIII
I think it was the 1e Guide to Hell, which IIRC had a lot of inconsistencies with other planescape material
EDIT:
And that particular bit also contradicts Forgotten Realms canon now that I think about it.
Don't forget Tharizdun (and to a lesser extent Iuz, Zuggtmoy, and Lolth)Last edited by Bohandas; 2020-12-17 at 03:51 AM.
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2020-12-17, 07:39 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VIII
I didn't know Guide to Hell was 1E. That was before my time anyway, I got all my Planescape stuff through either Ebay or PDFs.
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2020-12-17, 09:16 AM (ISO 8601)
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2020-12-17, 10:13 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VIII
And according to Wikipedia, it was published in 1999, 5 years after the Planescape campaign setting.
Not an official PS supplement, though, which I suppose explains the weirdness.Resident Vancian Apologist
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2020-12-17, 11:27 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VIII
Here's the exact quote about Big A and atheists:
Originally Posted by Guide to Hell, p.49
But the out-of-left-field change makes sense at a metagame level, because Guide to Hell was one of the first few cosmology-focused books published after D&D's Satanic Panic era, so in addition to bringing back "devil" and "demon" as game terms in addition to "baatezu" and "tanar'ri" the writers were directed to deliberately reintroduce setting elements that were more edgy and provocative than were seen in Planescape, and trying to position Asmodeus as the Big Evil of the setting was part of that.
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2020-12-18, 07:32 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VIII
If there were a spell that lets you take a chunk of any substance and summon an elemental of it, and someone were to use a Calling spell plus some violence to obtain a chunk of demoinc flesh, then used the hypothetical spell I mentioned to make an "Abyss Elemental" then...
Conjuring an elemental brings a unique being whose inherent nature involves inhabiting and manipulating a body formed from its native element into the Material Plane. You can't conjure the spiritual essence of an Outer Plane because 1) it's not a distinctive being, it's just the anchoring foundation of a place literally made of belief; and 2) you have nothing to host it in. Your best imitation is still a totally illogical and incompatible mess because it lacks the nature of the plane in question. Small wonder that planar golems are so intensely difficult to create.Last edited by Dalmosh; 2020-12-19 at 12:08 AM.
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2020-12-26, 09:09 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VIII
I am in Sigil and I want to be mazed. What is the most efficient way to get Mazed by the Lady without her killing you? Can you simply walk up to here and ask to be Mazed?
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2020-12-26, 09:17 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VIII
False.
What is the most efficient way to get Mazed by the Lady without her killing you?Can you simply walk up to here and ask to be Mazed?Last edited by enderlord99; 2020-12-26 at 09:18 PM.
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2020-12-26, 09:35 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VIII
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2020-12-26, 10:07 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VIII
Was that the guy who managed to gain power over the maze he was trapped in, as well as letting other people in and out, and even giving it Harbinger-House—esque anti_lady properties, all by writing "I rule this place, not the Lady" and "This place exists in Sigil's place, but it is not Sigil" and several similar things into a book that was magically always accurate? Or am I thinking of something else?
EDIT: The thing I'm half-remembering has some connection to Umbril, I think.Last edited by enderlord99; 2020-12-26 at 10:36 PM.
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2020-12-26, 10:42 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VIII
That is something completely unrelated.
This is a literal library, that the Lady has an interest in. We don't know if she made it or what, but she personally makes sure that people who mess with the library get comeuppance. One of the better collections of lore in the multiverse, since books come in from everywhere and the Lady makes sure that no Library of Alexandria incidents can occur.
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2020-12-26, 11:29 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VIII
Who was I thinking of, then? Was it the same guy who killed his future self in a ritual and then got trapped in a rock and then was killed within the rock by his past self in a ritual, or was this a different idiot-who-tried-to-conquer-Sigil?
EDIT: Found it.Last edited by enderlord99; 2020-12-28 at 07:04 AM.
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2020-12-28, 12:48 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VIII
I have some questions about animi and souls.
First of all living, mindless and some undead, mindless creatures have an animus, intelligent creatures have souls (exept elementals and outsiders that technically are souls) and constructs have an animating force (usually an elemental). Is that right or are already some of my basics wrong?
2. Incarnum is a magic substance made up of soul energy but is it possible that Incarnum is created from animi?
3. Plants and oozes are normally mindless and have animi but do intelligent one like treants have souls (and would something like a treant soulmeld be possible)?
4. Do warforged and other intelligent constructs have a real soul or an potentially better animated force (or an animus)?
5. If somebody uses "awaken" on a tree or "awaken vermin" on vermin does he create a new soul for that now sentient being or does he 'upgrade' the animus into a soul?
Edit: 5.5 Does the 'upgraded' animus disappear like a normal animus or is the creature able to go into an afterlife?
6. Do the spells "awaken construct" and "incarnate construct" create a soul or do they change the animated force and what happens to the animated force if it doesn't change especially in the case of "incarnate construct"?Last edited by Larbek24; 2020-12-28 at 12:53 PM.
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2020-12-28, 02:29 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VIII
"If you want to understand biology don't think about vibrant throbbing gels and oozes, think about information technology" -Richard Dawkins
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2020-12-28, 04:41 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VIII
Well, you are not Afro so I would dare to ask a question: how do you know what do you know? I agree about "no guaranteed way", but why would you say that one would probably get Flayed for intention to be Mazed? Are you assuming by default that any and all such attempt is somehow attempt to subvert the Lady and therefore she calls shenanigans?
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2020-12-28, 04:55 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VIII
Enderlord has a slight tendency for exaggeration, but he isn't far off. I vaguely remember a story I read somewhere in a Planescape sourcebook (no idea which one) about a guy who wanted to communicate with the Lady. He started with, well, talking at her. No reaction. He escalated. He tried yelling, writing, translation spells, simple telepathy. Then, one day, he appeared with some kind of techno-magical device covering his head. It combined, in some way, telepathy and language magic. He managed to make contact with the Lady. That was when the screaming started.
Today he's still walking Sigil's streets, half-flayed, half-stitched together with his device, babbling unendingly in unknown tongues.
Leave the Lady alone.
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2020-12-28, 05:03 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VIII
I said "probably" not "definitely" or "inevitably"
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