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Thread: Imbue Item ignoring prereqs y/n
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2021-02-22, 09:16 AM (ISO 8601)
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Imbue Item ignoring prereqs y/n
12th level warlocks get to make UMD checks to ignore spell knowledge prereqs when making magic items. This does not allow them to ignore the xp component as a part of that process, does it?
For an example pulled from the discussion starter: warlocks crafting items of wish at the same price as an item holding a 9th level spell that didnt have an xp component like meteor swarm
Asking to clarify a misunderstanding/to continue a deraily conversation in a proper thread
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2021-02-22, 09:36 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Imbue Item ignoring prereqs y/n
The ability is fairly clear, the only prerequisites it allows you to bypass are spell prerequisites. You still need to pay the associated costs (gold and xp), as well as have any required feats, skills, or other abilities that are in the item's prerequisites.
Wait, I think I understand your question more clearly now. You're talking about when ignoring spells with xp components. The answer remains no, you must still pay the xp component, as that is added onto the item's cost, and is not a function if expending the spell slot during the crafting process (otherwise a scroll of wish, which takes 4 days to craft, would actually cost 20,000xp, 5,000 for each day of crafting, but that's not how it works).
To clarify, when you expend a spell slot as part of crafting, you're not actually casting the spell, and need not pay any material or xp components when expending the spell slot, those are instead incorporated into the crafting costs of the item. This, for example, also prevents a creature with an SLA of a spell with a component cost from creating incredibly cheap items with those spells. An efreeti crafting a scroll of wish for example would still need to pay the 5,000xp crafting cost.Last edited by Crake; 2021-02-22 at 09:40 AM.
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2021-02-22, 09:42 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Imbue Item ignoring prereqs y/n
Originally Posted by Complete Arcane sourcebook
Originally Posted by Scrolls
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2021-02-22, 10:02 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Imbue Item ignoring prereqs y/n
Imho, when you start the crafting process of a magic item the required spell is being "passively" cast. Because the crafting descriptions say that they are "triggered" and not "consumed". "Triggered" indicated a clear cast in this chase imho.
Originally Posted by DMG Scribe Scrolls
If the check succeeds, the warlock can create the item as if he had cast the required spell.
It doesn't say "as if he had expanded a spellslot and would know the spell".
It doesn't say "as if the right spell had been triggered".
It says clearly "as if he had cast the spell". The point where XP and material components are already consumed.Extended Signature with Links to all my build showcases in the forum
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2021-02-22, 11:24 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Imbue Item ignoring prereqs y/n
Thats the thing though, that is entirely an opinion and a dm would be reasonable to say thats how it works in their campaign.
Unfortunately, it remains an opinion. If they wanted the spells to be cast during the process they would have said so, and clearly so. Instead, we have several places that say that the spells are, in fact, not actually being cast in all of the descriptions.
Check the other posters responses for more detail as to whyLast edited by Raishoiken; 2021-02-22 at 11:25 AM.
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2021-02-22, 11:35 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Imbue Item ignoring prereqs y/n
If you assume that the spells are not being cast (in the crafting process), we are at the point I mentioned earlier: "Imbue Item" becomes totally nonfunctional, because it "casts the spell" and that doesn't help with the requirements that your interpretation would imply.
As, said I can see RAW arguments where Imbue Items becomes totally nonfunctional. But since that interpretation is not the sole valid way to interpret the ability, I prefer the interpretation that causes less dysfunction (but has more cheese ^^ ).
edit: typo / grammaLast edited by Gruftzwerg; 2021-02-22 at 11:37 AM.
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2021-02-22, 11:51 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Imbue Item ignoring prereqs y/n
Last edited by Raishoiken; 2021-02-22 at 11:58 AM.
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2021-02-22, 03:40 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Imbue Item ignoring prereqs y/n
I think both views are valid and are legal readings by RAW. On one hand you have rules that require everything to be provided and consumed the moment you start writing and doesn't actually cast a spell. On the other you have a class feature that uses the past tense to describe something that happens in a moment and is not what is needed to create an item.
Casting a spell in the past tense implies all components were provided already as not having the components implies failure. In this way the Warlock would not have to provide the components of the spell.
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2021-02-22, 08:58 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Imbue Item ignoring prereqs y/n
That is what I tried to say. By RAW, since we "fake the spell being cast", we fake all other aspects of a cast spell. This includes all components (V,S,M,F) needed. That the crafting process says "triggered" is another indicator is that the spell is being cast by a passive spell trigger of the craft ability.
Further:
Originally Posted by DMG Scribe ScrollExtended Signature with Links to all my build showcases in the forum
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2021-02-22, 09:16 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Imbue Item ignoring prereqs y/n
It's somewhat ambiguous, but I think the case for "the cost is added rather than paid as part of casting" is a bit stronger.
In the general rules for magic items, there's this.
Originally Posted by 3.5 SRD
Then the use of components varies by type of item, but they're always paid as a lump sum up front, even with things like Wands where you aren't consuming any spell slots and you certainly aren't casting 50 of the spell in a single day.
Rings, Staffs, Wands: Consumes the slot(s) each day it's worked on, and consumes 50x the components once at the start.
Armor/Weapons, Rods, Wondrous Items: Consumes the slot(s) each day it's worked on, does not consume any components.
Potions, Scrolls: Consumes the slot once, requires the components once, regardless of how many days it takes.
There doesn't seem to be a correlation between number of times the slot was expended and number of components consumed, except for Potions and Scrolls.Last edited by icefractal; 2021-02-22 at 09:19 PM.
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2021-02-22, 09:27 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Imbue Item ignoring prereqs y/n
I would still argue that they (crafting feats) are "specific" spell casts being "triggered", with "specific rules" for their components (V,S,M,F).
Imbue Item lets you fake the spell being cast. As such, it still covers the components needed for completing the cast (V,S,M,F). It doesn't just fake the expense of a spellslot / prepared spell. It fakes the entire spell being cast.Last edited by Gruftzwerg; 2021-02-22 at 09:28 PM.
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2021-02-22, 10:03 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Imbue Item ignoring prereqs y/n
You cant really argue that they are specific ways to cast the spell without houseruling it. Everywhere in magic item creation explicitly references that you are not everytime the topic is brought up.
Sure, a slot is expended, as if you had. If you were actually casting it, the words "as if you had" would not appear because there would be no need for a distinction
Icefractal pointed out that it's even shown that you arent paying for the xp each day you work on the item, which would only make sense if ylu actually were doing some sort of casting.
In fact, by your logic it would seem like you shoul pay less xp component if the item itself has a quicker crafting time since you dont have to cast the spell as many times.
Thia is not the case. The xp is paid for at the very beginning of the construction process, on the first day.
Edit: Also as a bonus round. Warlock crafts the item as if you did cast the spell, which means that you follow the same crafting steps and formulas for the item as if it were normalLast edited by Raishoiken; 2021-02-22 at 10:06 PM.
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2021-02-22, 10:27 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Imbue Item ignoring prereqs y/n
"Specific" ways to cast spells:
- scrolls, wands, rods...
- UMD scrolls, wands, rods..
- SLA
- contingency (spell)
- Arcane Fusion
- metamagic for spontaneous spellcasters
....
We have enough other chases of "specific" ways to cast a spell that don't follow the general rules.
Crafting magic items is just another specific way how a "spell cast" is being passively "triggered".
And the warlock fakes that "spell cast". And a spell cast can only be faked if all conditions are fulfilled for the "cast" (V,S,M,F). Again pointing out that the ability doesn't limit itself only to the "expanded" spellslot /prepared spell.Extended Signature with Links to all my build showcases in the forum
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2021-02-23, 12:37 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Imbue Item ignoring prereqs y/n
But that's not true for anything but scrolls and potions.
A wand or staff always costs 50x the components, but takes a variable amount of time to craft. So for example, a Wand of Stoneskin (CL 20th) requires expending the slot 60 times, but only requires paying for the component (diamond dust) 50 times. Which means that obviously the crafting doesn't require that "all conditions are fulfilled" for each time the spell is 'cast', else it would cost an extra 2500 gp.
I don't see how this makes the ability nonfunctional though. It lets you ignore the crafting requirements of "having spell slots" and "knowing the particular spells" - everything else works as normal.Last edited by icefractal; 2021-02-23 at 12:39 AM.
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2021-02-23, 01:37 AM (ISO 8601)
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2021-02-23, 04:11 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Imbue Item ignoring prereqs y/n
Both "specific" exceptions that alter the general rules for XP and material components for casting a spell. The other craft options also "trigger" "spell casts". As far as I see it, crafting only uses specific spell component rules. "Triggering" a spell cast indicates these altered rules.
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2021-02-23, 05:04 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Imbue Item ignoring prereqs y/n
What general rules? Wondrous Items and Rods don't even use the components at all, and the closest thing to a general statement on crafting items was the one I posted above.
If you're aware of some rules text that says the component cost is directly a result of casting the spell that many times, please post it, because I'm not seeing anything which does say that and a lot of things that contradict it.
An example in the other direction, an (arcane) Wand of Identify costs 5750 gp and takes one day to craft, therefore only one "casting" of Identify (100 gp). If the component cost is a result of casting the spell during crafting, then what's the other 4900 gp for?Last edited by icefractal; 2021-02-23 at 05:14 AM.
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2021-02-23, 06:02 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Imbue Item ignoring prereqs y/n
the crafting feats make use of "trigger" and "spell cast". Casting a spell
Originally Posted by Components PHB 174
2. Crafting feats make use of the terms "trigger(ing)" a "spell". As such they describe a specific form of casting spells.
3. This is further confirmed by the wording of the "Imbue Item" ability which lets you use UMD to count as if you had "cast the spell" (not sole expended a slot/prepared spell). As such, we can confirm that:
a) crafting is a specific type of casting
b) any (even altered) spell components are faked by Imbue Item.
4. The magic item/crafting costs are another indicator.
Originally Posted by Scribe Scroll
The crafting process triggers the "spell" and a spell always has components (general). You can have specific exceptions (e.g. SLA, a specific form/subcategory of "spells"; metamagic like silent/still spell..) and crafting feats also are just another specific exception to those general rules (for spells). They alter the general rules for spells for their niche (crafting). As such "specific beats general". Imbue Item does fake spells being cast for crafting purposes and as such fake any components.Extended Signature with Links to all my build showcases in the forum
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2021-02-23, 08:03 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Imbue Item ignoring prereqs y/n
Here's the full paragraph from the SRD about creating scrolls:
The creator must have prepared the spell to be scribed (or must know the spell, in the case of a sorcerer or bard) and must provide any material component or focus the spell requires. If casting the spell would reduce the caster’s XP total, she pays the cost upon beginning the scroll in addition to the XP cost for making the scroll itself. Likewise, a material component is consumed when she begins writing, but a focus is not. (A focus used in scribing a scroll can be reused.) The act of writing triggers the prepared spell, making it unavailable for casting until the character has rested and regained spells. (That is, that spell slot is expended from her currently prepared spells, just as if it had been cast.)
Each of the magic item types has similar (but not identical) text in the descriptions. For example, here's the text for Wondrous Items:
If spells are involved in the prerequisites for making the item, the creator must have prepared the spells to be cast (or must know the spells, in the case of a sorcerer or bard) but need not provide any material components or focuses the spells require, nor are any XP costs inherent in a prerequisite spell incurred in the creation of the item. The act of working on the item triggers the prepared spells, making them unavailable for casting during each day of the item’s creation. (That is, those spell slots are expended from his currently prepared spells, just as if they had been cast.)
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2021-02-23, 08:25 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Imbue Item ignoring prereqs y/n
Imho you are ignoring this part:
The act of writing triggers the prepared spell
Imbue Items further confirms this by giving you the ability to fake the cast and not to fake the prepared spell/slot (+ spell known).
BTW: I'm not arguing here that this is RAI (but would bring warlock more in line with other full casters, so who knows..), nor do I suggest here to abuse this at your table (unless you really intend to play high TO builds). Wish loops and pun pun are also RAW legal but nobody tries to play them. I just see this as RAW (so far..^^). Just as a side note ;)Extended Signature with Links to all my build showcases in the forum
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2021-02-23, 08:33 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Imbue Item ignoring prereqs y/n
no.
the spell gets triggered, not cast. and warlocks imbue items is worthless.
have you forgotten your 3 favorite words "primary source rule"?
primary source rule says spells are triggered everyday you work on an item and is never cast.
warlock class description is wrong and therefore by raw completely dysfunctional and unusable.
you cannot use any text in the warlock class description to figure out how magic item creation works because primary source rule. you must look solely at the dmg and mic and only those two books and if your warlock class description conflicts with it then too bad for warlocks. primary source rule.
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2021-02-23, 09:30 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Imbue Item ignoring prereqs y/n
No I haven't forgotten em ;)
It's just that as I said, that "trigger a spell" implies a spell cast . And crafting rules (specific) alter the general component rules for their specific niche situation (crafting). And finally the warlock fakes those "components" (V,S,M,F) with his fake spell cast.
And as I showed you in an earlier post, there are several specific ways to alter the general component rules for spell casts.Extended Signature with Links to all my build showcases in the forum
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2021-02-23, 10:34 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Imbue Item ignoring prereqs y/n
What? You have the general rules for crafting. Then you have specific rules for bypassing those rules. Specific trumps general. Imbue item presents the spell components as if you had already cast the spell for the creation of the item. As it uses the word cast instead of triggered, the appropriate assumption should be all aspects of the spell were taken care of.
If one wants something dysfunctional, try a wish scroll. Craft it with the minimum xp value and wish for something that consumes many times that. Nothing in the rules that I've read actually says a wish scroll is limited by the xp put into its creation.
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2021-02-23, 03:14 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Imbue Item ignoring prereqs y/n
Please cite where you are getting this from, other than "triggered sounds similar to cast, to me".
Also please explain why you're considering "component cost = castings / triggerings" a "general rule", when it doesn't work (as in, significantly contradicts the given prices) for any type of magic item except Potions and Scrolls!Last edited by icefractal; 2021-02-23 at 03:18 PM.
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2021-02-23, 05:02 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Imbue Item ignoring prereqs y/n
Thats only your interpretation of what the word "trigger" means, not what it actually means.
Triggering a spell during crafting and casting a spell are different. Just because they seem to be similar actions doesnt make them the same action. Thrallherd and leadership are essentially the exact same ability, but leadership stuff doesnt work for thrallherd
If the authors wanted us to think they were the same thing they would likely have told us that they were, instead of using both words in the same sentence to mean different things. The fact that they do that not only implies that triggering is not cast farrr more than the other way around, but it pretty much explicitly says that the spell isnt being cast and by extension, the rules explicitly say that your interpretation is incorrectLast edited by Raishoiken; 2021-02-23 at 05:37 PM.
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2021-02-23, 06:28 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Imbue Item ignoring prereqs y/n
no because you dont cast spells when crafting items, so "as if you cast the spell" doesnt accomplish anything. if the class feature says "as if you danced around the raw materials", would that accomplish anything? no because dancing around the raw materials does nothing.
its clear the writer of the class feature doesnt know the rules. its very common in d&d. draconomicon guy didnt know that innate spellcasting does require material components. the guy who wrote magic of eberron did not know psi-like abilities are augmented to the max so every stat block in magic of eberron is wrong. and the guy who wrote warlock doesnt know the rules for magic item creation and made a mistake here. and because of this imbue item is a worthless class feature.Last edited by newguydude1; 2021-02-23 at 06:42 PM.
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2021-02-23, 07:42 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Imbue Item ignoring prereqs y/n
Sad times for inexperienced writers. Thankfully in addition to raw, we can infer the rai from all the information we have present:
RAW: seemingly falls short because you trigger and not cast while crafting so it does nothing
RAI: it removes the need to know or prepare the spell being placed in the item
neither of these involve skimping out on the crafting costs
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2021-02-24, 01:18 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Imbue Item ignoring prereqs y/n
1. If "something" gets triggered, that "something" then works as intended. That "something" doesn't get changed.
e.g. "If I trigger you to become angry (assuming it works^^), then the result is that you become angry and not something else."
or
"If I trigger a switch, the outcome is already defined"
Finally, if we look at "spell trigger" items, we can see how "trigger" is again used to "cast spells" in a "specific" way (e.g. wand, rod..).
2. If a spell gets "triggered", I assume in the first place that it works as normal for a spell. Unless other more "specific" introductions are given (which the crafting feats do).
3. Spells & magic are defined things (which means they have a primary source). As such anything that refers to their use (including crafting) have to alter those general rules to work (or otherwise behave under the general rules). The general rules for spells have "Component" rules (phb p174). Anything that works with spells fall under this rule.
e.g. Note that SLA's (which clearly refer to spells) explicitly call out the differences for the "components".
Crafting feats do the same. They make changes to the component rules (specific) and the way the spell is cast (triggered passively and not cast actively). But the changes don't change that these things still are (altered) "Components" of the spell.
Imbue Item fakes the entire (altered) spell cast. And if you have cast a spell (or count as such), you already have provided all components.Last edited by Gruftzwerg; 2021-02-24 at 01:19 AM.
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2021-02-26, 02:11 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Imbue Item ignoring prereqs y/n
Asking for clarity here. Is your entire point is based on the assumption that:
1: crafting uses spells
2: spells are cast
3: since spells are cast, triggered is just another way of saying casting a spell?
4: since you are casting a spell while crafting, you have to follow the component rules for spells unless it's specifically called out as different
5: since warlock makes the item "as if he cast the spell", but he didnt really cast the spell, he removes component costs from the creation formula
Did i make any mistakes in trying to reconstruct your arguement?
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2021-02-26, 08:19 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Imbue Item ignoring prereqs y/n
I guess you summed it good up. A pretty long argumentation chain, after seeing the several points..^^ but still RAW imho.
The point is, once a "defined keyword" in 3.5 gets mentioned, you are automatically forced under their rules (Primary Source Rule). You can alter these rules by making exceptions for specific niches but that's all the freedom you'll get.
And crafting does that: It uses spells and "alters" their general rules. Warlock fakes the entire ("altered") spell cast.
edit:
On second thought I would combine point 2+3 for better clarity.
2+3: "Triggering a spell" is a specific exception/way to cast spells.
Imho that would be more accurate here.Last edited by Gruftzwerg; 2021-02-26 at 09:26 PM.
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Orko, He-man & Battlecat (a Dragonfire Mount's Ubermount and its Ubermount)
Giant Dwarf, the Rock Superstar (a War Chanter build)