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  1. - Top - End - #271
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    Default Re: The Falcon & Winter Soldier

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    Wow, it really doesn't pay well to be Captain America's sidekick, does it.

    I, too, am curious about Wakanda's apparent disregard for international sovereignty. Do they think themselves above other nations or simply not care? I doubt it will really be addressed, though. Also interesting to see that they never truly trusted Bucky. Installing a back door means seeing a possible future for using it, after all.
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  2. - Top - End - #272
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    Default Re: The Falcon & Winter Soldier

    Quote Originally Posted by Sholos View Post
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    Wow, it really doesn't pay well to be Captain America's sidekick, does it.

    I, too, am curious about Wakanda's apparent disregard for international sovereignty. Do they think themselves above other nations or simply not care? I doubt it will really be addressed, though. Also interesting to see that they never truly trusted Bucky. Installing a back door means seeing a possible future for using it, after all.
    They don't seen any more disregarding of international sovereignty than America is in the Marvel Universe. The great thing about being a super power is is that you can ignore the little people's protestations.

  3. - Top - End - #273
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    Default Re: The Falcon & Winter Soldier

    Originally Posted by Captain Cap
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    In the previous episode the scientist mentioned that he improved the serum by making its effects more subtle and thus easier to hide.
    Good catch, thanks. Managed to miss that.

    Originally Posted by Kareeah_Indaga
    Might be a hurdle or antagonist talking point for Black Panther 2.
    I certainly hope so.

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    I'm very happy to see so much Wakanda in this episode. At this point I’m looking forward to the Wakanda series more than I am to all the new Star Wars shows put together. They are really selling me on the potential for world-building in that setting, as well as continuity with previously minor characters like Ayo who have a lot of potential themselves.


    Originally Posted by BRC
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    Zemo is a Spy, and he know how to exploit Power dynamics. He reaches out to the children, he bribes them with candy and, what is for him, petty cash.

    He doesn't try to establish Trust, he finds somebody he can wield Power over, and exploits that.
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    Excellent points, I think that’s the essence of it.

    Maybe Sam will learn a little bit from Zemo? Although the escaping-down-the-drain aspect does put a damper on future teaching moments.


    Originally Posted by BRC
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    After the Snap, borders were opened and populations were resettled, people were welcomed. After the Unsnap, things are being forced back to how they were and the Flag Smashers object.

    That's, actually a pretty well-rounded explanation for the Flag Smashers and what they do.
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    Indeed, and it makes them all the more sympathetic. They’re not just out to create havoc based on their own political philosophies: they see themselves as fighting for everyone who has been turned out of their homes just as they were finding new lives after the Snap.

    And it rings so true with the Global Repatriation Council—a massive international agency, perhaps well-intentioned, which is steamrolling people in the name of its own founding principles.


    Originally Posted by BRC
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    Karlie is an interesting character. I was expecting another generic take on "Good intentions but she WENT TOO FAR and DID A VIOLENCE!", instead we get this woman who is, frankly, completely out of her depth on the stage she's playing at.
    Like, the bombing didn't really help her cause very much? But I'm also sold that she would do it, because, as presented, she has no idea what she's doing. She's full of posturing and lashing out.
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    Agreed completely. She’s becoming one of the most nuanced and sympathetic villains we’ve seen in the MCU.


    Originally Posted by Sholos
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    I, too, am curious about Wakanda's apparent disregard for international sovereignty…. Also interesting to see that they never truly trusted Bucky.
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    Well, in fairness, they had no reason to, given that he was a dangerous foreign operative.

    The original plan was to keep him on ice in Wakanda until he could be deprogrammed. Bucky essentially said goodbye to Cap in that scene, so it seemed as if he was expecting a long sleep, possibly decades.

    Not sure what changed for them to decide to wake him up and give him time in a rural setting. I’m wondering how much of a personal relationship he had with Ayo, since she seems to take his actions in today’s episode very personally. I don’t think we’ve ever heard a Wakandan say “Bast damn you!” before.

    (Also, wait, Bast goes around damning people? That’s a different take from the green veldt that goes on forever.)

  4. - Top - End - #274
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    Default Re: The Falcon & Winter Soldier

    Quote Originally Posted by Palanan View Post
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    Well, in fairness, they had no reason to, given that he was a dangerous foreign operative.

    The original plan was to keep him on ice in Wakanda until he could be deprogrammed. Bucky essentially said goodbye to Cap in that scene, so it seemed as if he was expecting a long sleep, possibly decades.

    Not sure what changed for them to decide to wake him up and give him time in a rural setting. I’m wondering how much of a personal relationship he had with Ayo, since she seems to take his actions in today’s episode very personally. I don’t think we’ve ever heard a Wakandan say “Bast damn you!” before.

    (Also, wait, Bast goes around damning people? That’s a different take from the green veldt that goes on forever.)
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    Very true, but now they've burned any trust Bucky might have had towards them. If they included a secret switch in his arm, what's to say they haven't left any other nasty surprises they could use against him?
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  5. - Top - End - #275
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    Originally Posted by Sholos
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    Very true, but now they've burned any trust Bucky might have had towards them. If they included a secret switch in his arm, what's to say they haven't left any other nasty surprises they could use against him?
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    Very much agreed. I'd be surprised if they don't have a way to remotely deactivate the arm if need be.

    Or maybe Bucky himself. Not sure if T'Challa would have authorized something like that, but Okoye certainly would have.

  6. - Top - End - #276
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    Default Re: The Falcon & Winter Soldier

    Okay, significantly better than last week, though still had some annoying bits.

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    We've got enough here to actually have some understanding of what their beef is. And it's not 'Thanos was right,' thank goodness.

    On the other hand, I think they've gone too far in having all the complaints coming from those who were present after the snap. Coming back after five years, no job, family maybe moved on, all money distributed, strangers living in your home, everything five years out of date...not easy either.

    Bucky and Sam should be that, but ironically, both of them were in hiding before the Snap, so can't really talk that much about what they lost. The fact that no one says, 'terribly sorry I was murdered and then resurrected and that interfered with your life,' is a bit annoying to me.

    Maybe in the original order this would be less bad as Wandavision deals with the consequences for the Snapped fairly directly.


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    Okay, I found the 'Walker can't wait 10 minutes' annoying as it felt like conflict for the sake of conflict.

    Because there's a legitimate conflict of interest here. Sam/Bucky want the vials and for her to stop murdering people. Nu-Cap/Battlestar want to arrest her and her group. It's just possible Sam can talk her into giving up the vials, as it takes the Power Broker's eyes off her and he can make an argument for non/less violent means.

    But from a governmental perspective, she's a murderous terrorist and 'just stopping' isn't enough, she has to surrender and be arrested, or killed. Does anyone think that Sam could have talked her into that in 10 minutes? No. We had an actual conflict here, but rather than deal with it, they dodged it, again.


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    I'm actually really pleased with this. He's not stupid (though the Sam/Bucky can't figure out how to talk to people bit wasn't the greatest, but they're well known figures so it's forgivable). He doesn't abandon his goals for personal power. He doesn't double-cross them and only runs when it becomes clear that the Wakandans are going to take him into custody and prevent him from completing his goals.


    Spoiler: Wakandans
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    So, I go back and forth on this. First, I don't think there's any evidence of hypocrisy on Nu-cap's part re: jurisdiction. It's possible, but it looks like he's working with the GRC which is working with the local governments. This was most obvious in the raid earlier when he had local support (as I read the scene anyway). Now that he's gone 'off-book' maybe not, but I don't think that question is clearly answered.

    I'm actually fine with, 'no we don't care about your local sovereignty, we are a world power, with dominance in this room,' as a position. But we have to recognize, that's what it was, a bald (accidental pun, which I'm keeping) appeal to force.

    The fight with the Dora Milaje worked for me. Nu-cap and Battlestar are skilled combatants, but they're US military trained. Give them guns and range and they'll probably win, put them in the same room, fighting with a shield and hand-to-hand and the Dora Milaje win every time.

    The fact that the Dora Milaje response to mild condescension and a pat on the shoulder was lethal force is interesting and something I hope will be picked up on in future. I also hope the folks who found the 'he spit at me, I shoved him' interaction earlier so offensive also find attempted murder for a far less aggressive action offensive.

    The arm makes perfect sense to me and, frankly, I'd be pleased if the Wakandans kept a backdoor into Bucky's programming. Sensible, if ruthless. But if I'm him...I'm starting to try to figure out who I can get to check their work.


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    Okay, between the Karli vs. Zemo scene and the Power Broker vs. Flag Smasher's scene, it's quite apparent that super-soldiers aren't bullet-proof, which does make me wonder how they defeated the guards with assault rifles back at the building they blew up. Only thing that makes sense to me is that the guards didn't shoot because they weren't trigger-happy goons.

    Lesson learned. Be trigger-happy goon.


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    That was brutal. Geez. Now, to turn the consistency claim around on myself, Karli killed a couple of prisoners and tried to kill more (I do wonder about the survivors, given what we saw, but sure, the MCU really likes to undercount bodies). Here Nu-cap killed the Flagsmasher. The man had not said he surrendered, but his hands were up, while he was on the ground, probably intended to indicate surrender.

    Regardless, very bad move, morally, tactically and PR wise. It's also interesting that the way the building placement is, no one of the observers see the Flagsmasher rip the big chunk of concrete out and hurl it at him, which happens twenty seconds before the lethal part of the encounter. Messy.


    ETA:
    Spoiler: Zemo & Captain America
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    Also, I'm sort of shocked by the number of folks online taking Zemo's 'exception that proves the rule' approach to Steve seriously. My read was that that was a transparent lie and attempt at manipulation of Steve's best friends.
    Last edited by ecarden; 2021-04-09 at 04:53 PM.

  7. - Top - End - #277
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    Default Re: The Falcon & Winter Soldier

    Just a reminder writers are making choices with how they write the characters. What rules do a vampire has as weaknesses? Well that depends on the writers.

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    Writing choices everywhere!

    Making a revolutionary bomb a building with people inside is a choice of the writers. Or saying this building is abandoned when Hulk and Iron Man fight with the Hulkbuster armor. Or having the revolutionary call the sister of the protagonist? This is inherently a threat per one writer, but another writer may make the revolutionary have more menace in her voice or do a direct threat. Likewise another writer may make the military director be cartoonishly evil or a more restrained evil who violates boundaries but feels he is in the right in a scary post 9/11 world.

    The choices we make as writers and audiences are inherently political. What we show and what we tell is political.
    Last edited by Ramza00; 2021-04-09 at 05:05 PM.
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  8. - Top - End - #278
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    Default Re: The Falcon & Winter Soldier

    Originally Posted by ecarden
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    Okay, between the Karli vs. Zemo scene and the Power Broker vs. Flag Smasher's scene, it's quite apparent that super-soldiers aren't bullet-proof….
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    Indeed, and it was another reality check for Karli when Zemo plugged her so easily.

    On the other hand, she clearly started healing almost immediately, and showed zero effect when she met Sam for the second time.

    Although she didn’t bring any extra protective gear, which is something she should really think about.


    Originally Posted by ecarden
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    Also, I'm sort of shocked by the number of folks online taking Zemo's 'exception that proves the rule' approach to Steve seriously.
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    Not sure what you mean here. By “the number of folks online,” do you mean in this thread, or somewhere else?

    And I can’t really follow your syntax after that.

  9. - Top - End - #279
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    Default Re: The Falcon & Winter Soldier

    Quote Originally Posted by Palanan View Post

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    And I can’t really follow your syntax after that.
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    I think ecarden is talking about the bit where Zemo admits that Steve Rogers was actually a decent guy despite being a super soldier - ecarden is saying (ecarden yell if I’m terribly off-base here) that Zemo doesn’t really believe Steve Rogers was an exception to the ‘all super soldiers are bad’ rule, he’s just saying that to manipulate Sam and Bucky.

  10. - Top - End - #280
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    Default Re: The Falcon & Winter Soldier

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    Not sure what you mean here. By “the number of folks online,” do you mean in this thread, or somewhere else?

    And I can’t really follow your syntax after that.
    [/QUOTE]

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    Sorry for the confusion. Nah, not here, doesn't seem to have been mentioned that I saw. I read Zemo's statement as a blatant lie, given his actions in Civil War. Lots of folks seem to view it as a truthful statement. See e.g. "Zemo pinpoints Steve as the only person to be good after taking the serum." and the comments under. (https://tv.avclub.com/the-falcon-and...n-t-1846651827).

  11. - Top - End - #281
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    ClericGuy

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    Default Re: The Falcon & Winter Soldier

    Quote Originally Posted by Kareeah_Indaga View Post
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    I think ecarden is talking about the bit where Zemo admits that Steve Rogers was actually a decent guy despite being a super soldier - ecarden is saying (ecarden yell if I’m terribly off-base here) that Zemo doesn’t really believe Steve Rogers was an exception to the ‘all super soldiers are bad’ rule, he’s just saying that to manipulate Sam and Bucky.
    That was indeed my intent. Thanks!

  12. - Top - End - #282
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    SwashbucklerGuy

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    Default Re: The Falcon & Winter Soldier

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    It didn't seem too weird for them to get so worked over Walker's condescension, but it was really stupid of them to get so into it that they lost track of Zemo. He didn't even do anything clever! He just walked out of the room!

    Also, they force Bucky and Sam into the fight by going for the kill, but then let everyone live when they win. Why escalate the fight in the first place then?

  13. - Top - End - #283
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    Originally Posted by Kareeah_Indaga for ecarden
    *snip snip snip*
    Okay, I appreciate the clarification. I see where everyone's coming from now.

    Really, I could see that line either way. I'm planning to give this series a careful rewatch once it's completed, so I'll keep that one in mind.

  14. - Top - End - #284
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    Quote Originally Posted by ecarden View Post
    That was indeed my intent. Thanks!


    Quote Originally Posted by hungrycrow View Post
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    It didn't seem too weird for them to get so worked over Walker's condescension, but it was really stupid of them to get so into it that they lost track of Zemo. He didn't even do anything clever! He just walked out of the room!

    Also, they force Bucky and Sam into the fight by going for the kill, but then let everyone live when they win. Why escalate the fight in the first place then?
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    Yeah one of my big problems with the series so far is that they keep having Zemo act with basic competence and a reasonable amount of cleverness but they have everyone around him act like idiots to exaggerate these traits to try to make him look like a mastermind instead of merely competent. That doesn’t work. And it’s extra galling because the people he’s working with and against are supposed to be competent in their own rights.

  15. - Top - End - #285
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    Default Re: The Falcon & Winter Soldier

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    I think Zemo was being honest about Steve. In fact, I think Zemo is one of the most honest characters in the show. Doesn't make him good, but he is sincere.
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  16. - Top - End - #286
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sholos View Post
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    I think Zemo was being honest about Steve. In fact, I think Zemo is one of the most honest characters in the show. Doesn't make him good, but he is sincere.
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    I mean, he lies plenty when he views it as necessary for an operation. The encounter with Selby, pretending to be the shrink back in civil war, most likely his little message that started the prison riot, the discussion with the kids in this very episode. He's honest about his motivation with Sam/Bucky because their interests align for the moment.


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    I may need to rewatch, but isn't the sequence of events here:

    1) The botched raid on the funeral, Zemo shoots Karli, destroys most vials, gets caught by Nu-Cap.
    2) The fight in the safehouse over who's taking Zemo.

    At that point they've burned all the leads Zemo can assist them with, haven't they? No more HYDRA links. They know the Flagsmasher's are on the run from the Power Broker, who also wants the team dead for Selby. What do they really need Zemo for?

    I mean, narratively this works. People get committed to a plan and don't re-evaluate all the time. But I'm not seeing an obvious path to de-escalation given the time limit the Dora Milaje imposed and the conflicting interests of the party. Sam & Bucky want Zemo to help them; Walker wants to produce some result for all this time and effort, so needs to return Zemo to his prison; the Dora Milaje want to...it's not entirely clear. But it doesn't appear to align with the others. Though maybe it did align with Walker and they still fought because he was condescending to them?

    Put him back in the prison their king left him in? Take him to Wakanda? Kill him on the spot? It's interesting that Dora Milaje are being sent on this, rather than War Dogs, or the Black Panther as well. I wonder what's going on in Wakanda...


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    So, I just need to accept that the MCU clearly has some sort of innate magical rules around who's able to use guns and how effectively they're able to do so and that it buys real hard into the inverse law of utility and lethality at least for mooks. Which is fair because it wants to have people fighting large groups, without just getting turned into swiss cheese, but oh boy does it sometimes leave me going 'just shoot them.' Which is why the Zemo scene startled the hell out of me.

    Though I do think they missed a chance to further mess with Walker by having Karli smack him down despite being injured as she made her escape.

  17. - Top - End - #287
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    Griffon

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    Default Re: The Falcon & Winter Soldier

    Quote Originally Posted by BRC View Post
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    Sam is a Therapist by training, he's all about establishing trust, and trust goes both ways. He reaches out to the teacher, and hits a wall when the teacher says "I'm sorry, I cannot trust you". He imagines he can convince people to help him, once he establishes that trust.

    Zemo is a Spy, and he know how to exploit Power dynamics. He reaches out to the children, he bribes them with candy and, what is for him, petty cash.

    He doesn't try to establish Trust, he finds somebody he can wield Power over, and exploits that.
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    I find it very interesting that's how you saw it, because my interpretation was that he was being deliberately genuine towards the kids.

    When Zemo, Bucky and Sam walked into the plaza where they met the kids, Zemo makes an off-hand remark that he remembers the place from his childhood, when it was a restaurant/ballroom. His wealth and status aside, he grew up in this area - he's literally talking to people in his old neighbourhood, that are living where he used to live.

    When you pair his firm anti-Super Soldier rhetoric with what his apparently his compassion for non-Super kids, I found the scene to be a good indicator of his priorities and perspective. Bucky and Sam can't relate to 'normal' people due to being Avengers and/or super-powered and were blinded by their single-minded mission to find Karli; Zemo, on the other hand, is a normal (if brilliant) guy who hasn't forgotten his roots, and his own mission to protect normal people from Supers, which is why he was just nice to people and it worked.

    Likely there's a bit of both theory involved, maybe we'll be able to tell for sure when we find out his full agenda later in the series?


    Quote Originally Posted by Kareeah_Indaga View Post
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    Yeah one of my big problems with the series so far is that they keep having Zemo act with basic competence and a reasonable amount of cleverness but they have everyone around him act like idiots to exaggerate these traits to try to make him look like a mastermind instead of merely competent. That doesn’t work. And it’s extra galling because the people he’s working with and against are supposed to be competent in their own rights.
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    As above; I think this is intentional, because it shows off how the other factions are either fanatical in their mindset or too conflicted to act decisively.

    Nu-Cap & Battlestar are the former - they've swallowed the propaganda and can do no wrong because Captain America is the good guy that everyone likes, so as long as they're bringing down terrorists then the end justifies the means. The Flagsmashers are starting to go this way too, particularly Karli's talk with Sam where she slips and admits that she doesn't mind killing low-level, mostly blameless personnel if it gets her what she wants. Both sides are the same - both are chasing the 'little picture' that ultimately won't solve any problems beyond their own immediate ones.

    Bucky and Sam are the latter - Sam is still feeling guilty because he turned down Cap's shield and doesn't know if he has what it takes, on top of worrying about his sister, whereas Bucky not only resents Sam's decision but is still haunted by memories of being Winter Soldier and daren't cut loose in case he becomes that again. Neither can focus on the task at hand and their hesitation is where mistakes find their way in.

    Zemo doesn't seem to have any of that. He has purpose and focus, just as he did when he took down the Avengers in the movie, and that's how he keeps one step ahead of the other groups. Whatever his agenda might be, just as he said in this week's episode, he has the will to see it through; everyone else is still trying to decide exactly what they want, and how to get it.
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    I think I've figured out part of the disconnect for me on the Flagsmashers and it comes from expectations:

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    So, if you take the MCU at its implied word, especially in Homecoming, then we out to expect that the end of the Blip is basically 'back to normal.'

    If that's the case, then new expulsions, new refugee camps and people dying of preventable diseases who weren't in danger before is a major decline in standards of living which should be opposed.

    On the other hand, if you expected 3.5 billion people reappeared with no warning and no preparation, doubling the planet's population to result in deaths on a scale not dissimilar to the Snap, then that exact same set of bad conditions looks like a miracle of lives saved.

    In one scenario, the GRC being in charge of the resettlement are monsters, in the other they've saved more human lives than anyone outside the Avengers (of course, both could be true. It could certainly be that they handled the immediate emergency brilliantly but can't manage the long term problems and are becoming dictatorial, but we totally lack any real understanding of their structure so I can't really tell).

    As my framing suggests, I concede that canon certainly pushes us towards scenario 1, but that's an absolute immersion breaker for me and since it's never stated explicitly in canon, I tend to interpret it as scenario 2 with folks trying to ignore the barely avoided massive death toll.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ecarden View Post
    I think I've figured out part of the disconnect for me on the Flagsmashers and it comes from expectations:

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    So, if you take the MCU at its implied word, especially in Homecoming, then we out to expect that the end of the Blip is basically 'back to normal.'

    If that's the case, then new expulsions, new refugee camps and people dying of preventable diseases who weren't in danger before is a major decline in standards of living which should be opposed.

    On the other hand, if you expected 3.5 billion people reappeared with no warning and no preparation, doubling the planet's population to result in deaths on a scale not dissimilar to the Snap, then that exact same set of bad conditions looks like a miracle of lives saved.

    In one scenario, the GRC being in charge of the resettlement are monsters, in the other they've saved more human lives than anyone outside the Avengers (of course, both could be true. It could certainly be that they handled the immediate emergency brilliantly but can't manage the long term problems and are becoming dictatorial, but we totally lack any real understanding of their structure so I can't really tell).

    As my framing suggests, I concede that canon certainly pushes us towards scenario 1, but that's an absolute immersion breaker for me and since it's never stated explicitly in canon, I tend to interpret it as scenario 2 with folks trying to ignore the barely avoided massive death toll.
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    The Flag Smashers are comprised of people from disadvantaged nations who benefited immensely from the Snap. The background is that people from the developing world were allowed to migrate into suddenly vacated space in the developed world to provide additional labor and allow those nations to remain at roughly the previous level of economic output they had pre-Snap due to immigration restrictions being functionally eliminated (it's implied that this did not happen in the US, mitigating the issue there). Following the Blip, the people who returned were allowed to reclaim their property and this meant that these migrants, possibly numbering in the hundreds of millions, got kicked out and told to go back to their original homes. The problem is that the places that they were kicked back to were massively neglected for five years and are no longer able to properly support them. Riga seems to be an example of this, which makes sense because the Latvia is the kind of state that would expect to see a lot of out-migration following the snap.

    I feel it would really help if we had a better understanding of what Earth looked like during the post-Snap period. For example, if certain major countries collapsed entirely (which seems plausible, your average authoritarian state is going to have a lot of trouble holding together if the leader and 50% of the senior military leaders get ashed), its possible that the geopolitical situation shifted massively. Possibly significant is the line 'Riga, a city on the Baltic Sea' as opposed to 'Riga, capital of Latvia,' which may imply that there isn't a Latvia anymore.

    But generally yeah, it's hard to know how to react to the aftermath of a disaster we don't properly understand.
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    Default Re: The Falcon & Winter Soldier

    Quote Originally Posted by Mechalich View Post
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    I feel it would really help if we had a better understanding of what Earth looked like during the post-Snap period. For example, if certain major countries collapsed entirely (which seems plausible, your average authoritarian state is going to have a lot of trouble holding together if the leader and 50% of the senior military leaders get ashed), its possible that the geopolitical situation shifted massively. Possibly significant is the line 'Riga, a city on the Baltic Sea' as opposed to 'Riga, capital of Latvia,' which may imply that there isn't a Latvia anymore.
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    So much this, i was so disappointed to see that everything just went right back to normal in the MCU with nothing happening between snaps. We're left on this huge cliffhanger in Infinity War and Antman and the Wasp of the remaining Avengers and populations calculating losses, and you'd think that you'd get a couple stories exploring the result of this in the intervening years. But nope, best we get is a five-year timeskip and thirty minutes in Endgame where they actually talk about what it's like before the story really picks up.

    Some mid-blip stories, even just an anthology series telling different tales every episode, would have really gone a long way. a Movie that tells a story mid-blip would be better, like a film all about Hawkeye's descend into Ronin.
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    Default Re: The Falcon & Winter Soldier

    Originally Posted by Mechalich
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    The background is that people from the developing world were allowed to migrate into suddenly vacated space in the developed world to provide additional labor and allow those nations to remain at roughly the previous level of economic output they had pre-Snap due to immigration restrictions being functionally eliminated (it's implied that this did not happen in the US, mitigating the issue there).
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    Do you have specific citations for the bolded portions?

    What you’re describing is one plausible interpretation, but I don’t recall hearing that level of detail.

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    Default Re: The Falcon & Winter Soldier

    Quote Originally Posted by Mechalich View Post
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    The Flag Smashers are comprised of people from disadvantaged nations who benefited immensely from the Snap. The background is that people from the developing world were allowed to migrate into suddenly vacated space in the developed world to provide additional labor and allow those nations to remain at roughly the previous level of economic output they had pre-Snap due to immigration restrictions being functionally eliminated (it's implied that this did not happen in the US, mitigating the issue there).
    Is it? I had a feeling that Falcon's sister Sarah story was somehow related to this. The US has enough of its population living in third world rate environment that it could have internal migration to help bolster the developped regions of America, and then these people would be kicked back to wherever they came or dumped in a ghetto after the desnap.

    It would have different shades, but it would be the same problem happening.

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    Default Re: The Falcon & Winter Soldier

    Episode 4 was another solid one. Lots of good action, conflicting objectives, all that fun stuff.

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    I'm not sure that their jurisdiction really is everywhere on a day to day basis, sure. It's just that Zemo is worth starting a potential international incident over.

    Which does make one wonder what the value of the Sokovia Accords are.

    In any case, it does make perfect sense that they would come for him after learning of his escape. And given that he DID escape, it's unlikely that other governments would be very upset about his recapture.

    The Wakandans in general do get to be much more intimdating here than in, say, Endgame. The close quarters make the spears actually scary, unlike the battlefield usage. Spears, even single shot laser-spears, don't seem like all that big a deal on a battlefield where everyone pretty much has cooler toys.


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    She's...almost reasonable sometimes. Then she flips over into crazy evil mode. The "this is the only language these people understand" while blowing up innocents is pretty much the opposite of a nuanced villain. She makes a decent patsy for a more central villain, but she's not much of one herself. I expect John Walker/the Power Broker to be a bit more central to the endgame here.

    John Walker's villain turn seemed pretty well motivated, though. And his short lived buddy appears to be mostly decently sympathetic, and part of his moral center, so...welp. The killing may have actually been legal and justified, as the man hadn't actually surrendered yet, and was a hostile combatant...but the specific circumstances are deeply unheroic. It draws a nice contrast between John and Steve.

    Before that, though, he mostly seemed to be just being an ass for the sake of it. There's really no reason for him to jump the gun. He doesn't lose anything by waiting. He shouldn't be deeply offended by Sam risking himself.


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    Zemo is a frigging amazing character in this. Solid skills, motivations, and just a great presence.

    I don't know if Zemo actually believes that Steve is a good guy, or is just making a point. Certainly he didn't seem overly concerned over Steve's safety as part of the avengers, but the guy is really good at influencing people, and the point he's making is really good.

    The making some people super has always been at odds with the ideals of equality.

    Agreed, though, that others are often being tossed the idiot ball. Still, Zemo is the most fully realized character in the series, and thus has essentially taken over as the primary protaganist. He's got an ethos, goals, conflict, etc. Im not sure if this is intentional, but it's a bold choice if so.


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    If you are super strong/fast, but are not bullet proof, you should probably wear body armor. The weight of it is mostly mitigated by the powers themselves, and not dying to every random mook with a gun seems useful.

    The Flag smashers are getting very poor mileage out of their powers. Their death rate is high, and for extremely little gain.

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    Default Re: The Falcon & Winter Soldier

    Do the Sokovia Accords matter here? The Dora Milajae aren't metahumans, just extremely well-equipped elite soldiers. And they're after Zemo, who isn't a metahuman either. They show no interest in the serum, nor even the vibranium items (shield/arm) that they could have easily confiscated.
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    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Default Re: The Falcon & Winter Soldier

    I think it would be nice to have it be clearer, yeah.

    We know that T'Challa chose to hand Zemo over for trial and punishment rather than killing him at the end of Civil War. Assuming he didn't blip, he's been in prison for six-seven years at this point. (Sam has stated that he and Cap were on the run for 2 years between Civil War and Infinity War. The blip lasted 5 years. this series is set some months post blip)

    So it would be nice to have someone explain if the Dora Milaje were dispatched by T'Challa to recapture Zemo after his escape. Or if they are operating on their own initiative. Or if someone else did so. But its not necessary, I suppose. We can make our own assumption that they have been sent by the ruling authority in Wakanda, even though T'Challa has shown a propensity of doing his own grunt work. Or, given that T'Challa would normally deal with this directly, or it would make more sense to send infiltrators like their spy network and war dogs rather than the Dora Milaje, that they might be operating on their own initiative.

    the Dora Milaje make terrible infiltrators. Not because of lack of skill but because six foot bald striking black women stand out in Eastern Europe. And.... Well... Anywhere.

    Everyone seems to be operating under vigilante levels of authority. It's implied but not stated that Cap and Battleslaw are working for the pan-continental, pan-national GRC. Perhaps on some kind of loan from the U.S. Goverment, perhaps directly if the GRC has some power over the U.S. Goverment in the New world order. A U.N. with actual powers and teeth. Why that organization is interested in an escaped felon is questionable, but let's assume that Cap and Battleslaw are actually tasked with taking out the Flagsmashers who are a direct threat to the GRC, and the Zemo recapture is incidental.

    We know that Sam and Bucky are completely on their own "authority". Certainly, they are not working for any government directly.

    The Dora Milaje have the same "authority" to go into eastern Europe after a fugitive as the U.S.A has of going into the middle east and capturing terrorists who act against their interests. Which is, exactly as much as they can get away with.
    Last edited by Gallowglass; 2021-04-12 at 05:13 PM.

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    Default Re: The Falcon & Winter Soldier

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Do the Sokovia Accords matter here? The Dora Milajae aren't metahumans, just extremely well-equipped elite soldiers. And they're after Zemo, who isn't a metahuman either. They show no interest in the serum, nor even the vibranium items (shield/arm) that they could have easily confiscated.
    The definition of "metahuman" for the Sokovia Accords seems to cover anyone operating at enhanced levels. It covers Hawkeye, who is just a guy with a bow. It covers Iron man who is just a guy in a suit. It covered Falcon who is just a guy using what was described as standard U.S. paratrooper technology in CA2. I can't see any reason why it would cover Iron Man and his suit and Hawkeye and his trick arrows and Falcon and his wings, but not the Dora Milaje with their enhanced fighting skills and technoweaponry.

    Of course, we could just agree that the Sokovia Accords are terribly defined, make zero practical sense, and shouldn't be used by anyone in any internet argument to try and prove a point.

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    Default Re: The Falcon & Winter Soldier

    Quote Originally Posted by Gallowglass View Post
    Or, given that T'Challa would normally deal with this directly, or it would make more sense to send infiltrators like their spy network and war dogs rather than the Dora Milaje, that they might be operating on their own initiative.

    the Dora Milaje make terrible infiltrators. Not because of lack of skill but because six foot bald striking black women stand out in Eastern Europe. And.... Well... Anywhere.
    And they’re in uniform too. They’re not even trying to blend in. Really curious why the war dogs aren’t handling this.

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    Default Re: The Falcon & Winter Soldier

    Whether the Dora Milaje apply as superhumans or not, they aren't vigilantes. The Sokovia accords wouldn't apply to agents of a sovereign state acting on its behest. It would - were it to be widely known - be an international issue between the governments of Wakanda and Latvia, though Zemo is a mass-murdering fugitive and not a Latvian citizen so I doubt they'd press the issue much.

    As to why send the Dora Milaje after Zemo, there is the obvious "because it's better for our television series" answer, but from an internal universe perspective there are two reasonable explanations I could give.

    One, it was Bucky who broke him out and was overseeing Zemo. They - the Wakandans - clearly have a respectful relationship with him, sufficient to give him the degree of leeway that they did. Sending the one who personally knows him the best to parlay with him makes sense... and shows an abundance of restraint really.

    Two, Zemo committed regicide. Probably the most heinous act committed by an outsider in their entire history. Sending your top agents - short of the reigning monarch himself - would seem like a reasonable reaction. This isn't a spying mission, nor is Wakanda maintaining the same level of secrecy it was pre-Black Panther. The only reason they delayed at all, was, as stated, their existing respect for Bucky.
    Last edited by Kitten Champion; 2021-04-12 at 06:10 PM.

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    Default Re: The Falcon & Winter Soldier

    Quote Originally Posted by Kitten Champion View Post
    Whether the Dora Milaje apply as superhumans or not, they aren't vigilantes. The Sokovia accords wouldn't apply to agents of a sovereign state acting on its behest. It would - were it to be widely known - be an international issue between the governments of Wakanda and Latvia, though Zemo is a mass-murdering fugitive and not a Latvian citizen so I doubt they'd press the issue much.
    It's entirely possible that the Latvian government, or the GRC administrators should there not be an actual Latvian government at this time or if the GRC exercises de facto control over whatever form the present Latvian government takes because of economic collapse, has authorized the Dora Milaje's presence to capture and extradite Zemo.

    Also, it's possible that Zemo, specifically, may be unprotected due to being stateless. He was a citizen of Sokovia, but Sokovia apparently no longer exists as a sovereign state following Age of Ultron. Statelessness is complex (and inherently political so we can't discuss it in detail), but suffice it to say that a stateless person lacks certain protections because there's no state to object on their behalf should something horrible happen to them.
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    Default Re: The Falcon & Winter Soldier

    Quote Originally Posted by Kitten Champion View Post
    Whether the Dora Milaje apply as superhumans or not, they aren't vigilantes. The Sokovia accords wouldn't apply to agents of a sovereign state acting on its behest. It would - were it to be widely known - be an international issue between the governments of Wakanda and Latvia, though Zemo is a mass-murdering fugitive and not a Latvian citizen so I doubt they'd press the issue much.

    As to why send the Dora Milaje after Zemo, there is the obvious "because it's better for our television series" answer, but from an internal universe perspective there are two reasonable explanations I could give.
    See, I think they acting on their own.
    Dora Milaje want revenge because their job is the king's safety. They failed. No one but them blame them, but doesn't change anything. This is personal.

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