Warhammer 40k Fluff Discussion XVII: Call Necrosius, The Old Thread Is Dead!

[Grim Portent]

Most chaos planets are technically only half-in the Warp so to speak. Even in the Eye of Terror, Maelstrom and Screaming Vortex daemons can't freely manifest everywhere, as you get deeper in the warp storms become more intense and reality less real, normal life starts to dissolve or change and the rules of the Warp fully replace those of realspace. Most of the mortal inhabitants live in relatively safe regions closer to the rim of the storms, where the effects of chaos aren't severe enough to completely prevent living normal lives.

There are places within the warp storms where reality and the Warp have hit a comfortable equilibrium of sorts, where daemons can walk freely among mortals but the mortals aren't melting into candlewax due to the laws of physics completely changing every ten seconds.

In the actual Warp, the realm of Chaos itself, most creatures literally disolve as the currents of the empyrean unmake them and daemons tear their soul apart. A few things can live there, usually very corrupt beings like Chaos Champions or Warp Talons, very pure and protected beings like Kaldor Draigo, and Orks under certain circumstances*.


*The Chaos Daemons codex from... I think 6th edition had Khorne keeping an Orkish WAAAGH in the mountains around his realm for his daemons to fight forever after they had impressed him after invading a Khornate Daemon World. The Orks fight daemons, die, get ressurrected or grow anew from spores, fight daemons, die again and so forth and shall do so for all eternity in a realm where time doesn't even exist.

[Cheesegear]

but if you wipe out the CSM, they aren't left with that much to threaten the galaxy with.

What? Chaos threatens the Galaxy by sentient and/or emotional beings existing.
Humanity slouches towards Chaos. Chaos Space Marines don't have to do anything, and Humanity will Fall all on its own, perhaps slower. But inevitably. Everything The Emperor did was try to prevent that from happening - He failed.

The Imperium is doomed to Fall to Chaos, or be destroyed by it. It's a foundational aspect of the setting.

[BRC]

What? Chaos threatens the Galaxy by sentient and/or emotional beings existing.
Humanity slouches towards Chaos. Chaos Space Marines don't have to do anything, and Humanity will Fall all on its own, perhaps slower. But inevitably. Everything The Emperor did was try to prevent that from happening - He failed.

The Imperium is doomed to Fall to Chaos, or be destroyed by it. It's a foundational aspect of the setting.

Not necessarily

There are any number of things that could wipe out the Imperium before Chaos gets a chance to. Among them The Imperium Itself deciding to just Exterminatus every planet it controls before Chaos can corrupt them.

(But, yes, the Imperium as a Doomed Civilization, sliding towards oblivion, held up mostly out of sheer inertia due to it's massive scale, is a core part of the setting.


But another part of that is that the Imperium is so huge that Games Workshop could advance the timeline by a century every year or so, and probably go out of business before the Imperium finished it's inevitable decline).

BRC's Uneducated list of "Ways the Imperium may die" (All of these basically come down to "Sol system falls, rest of Imperium shatters and gets swept up by other enemies)

1) 'Nids. That massive hive fleet finally shows up, the shadow in the warp covers the Astronomicon, the Imperium falls even if the 'nids get fought back.

2) 'Crons. Well, the Necrons wouldn't destroy the whole thing themselves, but something something void dragon on Mars causes Mars to go down, fracturing the Adeptus Mechanicus, and causing the Imperium to get torn apart by countless other foes.

3) Chaos forces make a deliberate push to destroy Terra, and succeed this time, either because they're stronger, or the Imperium is just too weak.

4) Imperium destroys itself in a cataclysmic civil war. Survivors fall to Chaos. Everything below this point is pretty memey

5) Orks happen. Something akin to the War of the Beast happens again. Imperium shatters.

6) Tau build a bomb that detonates stars, put it on a robot and manage to get it to the Sol system, where it slips by the defense fleets and detonates the Sun. Enraged Imperium wipes the Tau off the planet before falling to Chaos.

7) Revenge of the Squats.

[Cheesegear]

There are any number of things that could wipe out the Imperium before Chaos gets a chance to.

In which case, a massive, foundational, setting-creating and setting-spanning narrative, is pointless.

The narrative, is that Chaos Consumes All. The Emperor knows it. Necrons know it. Aeldari know it. The only people who don't seem to know it is the audience that doesn't read books.

Coming in at the 11th hour and saying "Just kidding, nope! It's [insert dumb thing]." is subverting expectations in the way that makes everything that came before the 'twist', pointless. I mean, that's certainly something you can do...If you want everyone to hate you.

Among them The Imperium Itself deciding to just Exterminatus every planet it controls before Chaos can corrupt them.

When the Imperium resorts to Exterminatus, Chaos has won the battle.
When the Imperium starts pre-Exterminatus'ing planets, Chaos has sown so much discord that they have won the war.

1) 'Nids. That massive hive fleet finally shows up, the shadow in the warp covers the Astronomicon, the Imperium falls even if the 'nids get fought back.

Ideally, Chaos wins before that. In most scenarios written post-Cicatrix, Chaos wins.
"Who inherits the Galaxy after that?"
Is the proper question for the proper scenario. Tyranids, probably.

[Grim Portent]

Ideally, Chaos wins before that. In most scenarios written post-Cicatrix, Chaos wins.
"Who inherits the Galaxy after that?"
Is the proper question for the proper scenario. Tyranids, probably.

I'm not sure there'd be much of a Galaxy to claim afterwards. If WHF -> AoS is to be taken as how the gods like to end a session of their Great Game, the Galaxy would be destroyed near completely after the gods are done. Kind of like clearing up after a real game, you put all the terrain back in it's box, remove any chess pieces still on the board or delete a completed save file.

[Cheesegear]

the Galaxy would be destroyed near completely after the gods are done.

It sure would. Lans already nailed it; Chaos wins. Then the Galaxy just...Ends.

There's no winners.
Everyone is losers.
Tyranids float through space until their hibernation is over.
The end.

[Misery Esquire]

I mean, the Rift is just Warp-Space not Chaos Undivided God's Own Personal Banhammer. Ynnaed is a Warp-entity, and the Emperor may as well be retitled Corpse-God* if he were ever to stand back up again, and both benefit from additional warp power. And Corvus is an stab-filled puddle** from living in the Warp, let alone whatever the Wolf King has been up to.

Necrons can work to separate Real and Warp Space, though they don't have the mindset, the cooperation, will, or plan, to do so. And doing so would ruin everyone's lives anyway according to the old fluff.

Tyranids eating everything is Warp agnostic - it'll happen or it won't.

Although, to be fair, no-one else really has shown a plan, manuever or ability to take the Imperium's spot as Holding the Galaxy, or to challenge Chaos' takeover.



*Just to make a mockery of Lorgar's existence. Again.
**See previous footnote

[Forum Explorer]

What? Chaos threatens the Galaxy by sentient and/or emotional beings existing.
Humanity slouches towards Chaos. Chaos Space Marines don't have to do anything, and Humanity will Fall all on its own, perhaps slower. But inevitably. Everything The Emperor did was try to prevent that from happening - He failed.

The Imperium is doomed to Fall to Chaos, or be destroyed by it. It's a foundational aspect of the setting.

I meant as physical agents to go out invading and such. Plenty, in fact most, civilizations that fall to Chaos just sort of self destruct and become either shadows of their former selves or die out entirely. They don't take the galaxy with them. They go extinct, and their ruins and artifacts act as seeds to corrupt future civilizations into falling to Chaos.

[Artanis]

The Chaos Daemons codex from... I think 6th edition had Khorne keeping an Orkish WAAAGH in the mountains around his realm for his daemons to fight forever after they had impressed him after invading a Khornate Daemon World. The Orks fight daemons, die, get ressurrected or grow anew from spores, fight daemons, die again and so forth and shall do so for all eternity in a realm where time doesn't even exist.

As I recall, the Orks thought this was awesome.

[Avaris]

The problem for me with the Great Rift plot is that it feels like GW wanted something dramatic to change the setting, but weren’t really sure what to do with it after and also wanted Gullimann’s Indomitus Crusade as a thing. In my opinion, they should have committed and basically said ‘the Imperium is no more, individual worlds and sectors are now left to their own devices’. In setting various factions might try and claim they represent the Imperium, and many humans would still worship the Emperor, but as a functional system it is broken.

Rather than the Indomitus Crusade, have Gullimann focus his attention on Ultramar, which becomes the largest of a series of minor Empires. Torchbearer fleets still go out, but realistically the chapters they found or reinforce are on their own apart from that. Perhaps Terra itself is lost, in a ‘no-one knows what happens there’ kind of way, though that might cause issues for the various factions based there.

[LansXero]

The problem for me with the Great Rift plot is that it feels like GW wanted something dramatic to change the setting, but weren’t really sure what to do with it after and also wanted Gullimann’s Indomitus Crusade as a thing. In my opinion, they should have committed and basically said ‘the Imperium is no more, individual worlds and sectors are now left to their own devices’. In setting various factions might try and claim they represent the Imperium, and many humans would still worship the Emperor, but as a functional system it is broken.

Rather than the Indomitus Crusade, have Gullimann focus his attention on Ultramar, which becomes the largest of a series of minor Empires. Torchbearer fleets still go out, but realistically the chapters they found or reinforce are on their own apart from that. Perhaps Terra itself is lost, in a ‘no-one knows what happens there’ kind of way, though that might cause issues for the various factions based there.

This dumps on any large scale conflicts like Baal or Damocles. Any effort to stop Tyranid or Ork incursions mobilizes resources from dozens of worlds and systems... to end up into an stalemate and barely edging in a win. Isolated pockets are just going to get pacman'd up and then the setting is over.

[Forum Explorer]

The problem for me with the Great Rift plot is that it feels like GW wanted something dramatic to change the setting, but weren’t really sure what to do with it after and also wanted Gullimann’s Indomitus Crusade as a thing. In my opinion, they should have committed and basically said ‘the Imperium is no more, individual worlds and sectors are now left to their own devices’. In setting various factions might try and claim they represent the Imperium, and many humans would still worship the Emperor, but as a functional system it is broken.

Rather than the Indomitus Crusade, have Gullimann focus his attention on Ultramar, which becomes the largest of a series of minor Empires. Torchbearer fleets still go out, but realistically the chapters they found or reinforce are on their own apart from that. Perhaps Terra itself is lost, in a ‘no-one knows what happens there’ kind of way, though that might cause issues for the various factions based there.

Without Tyranids being defeated, that's basically just a straight game over for the Imperium. Even the home world of a Space Marine chapter can barely handle a Hive Fleet, and it's a pretty close fight. And those are likely the most militarized planets the Imperium has. Any other planet would just be gobbled.


I think they should've brought back the Lion and Russ as well, and not have them actually agree with Guillimen. The Imperium splits into three loosely associated Kingdoms. Sure, they can all agree to work together to fight against Chaos or a Tyranid invasion, but they all have their own priorities and their own visions on what the Imperium should be, and where it went wrong since they left.

[LansXero]

Without Tyranids being defeated, that's basically just a straight game over for the Imperium. Even the home world of a Space Marine chapter can barely handle a Hive Fleet, and it's a pretty close fight.

Barely as in not at all. The Angels pretty much lost, and they had been weakening it all through the Cryptus system, and also had all their successors with them. Even precious Ultramar itself barely got enough people together to fend them off, and thats the larges 'empire' within the Imperium plus a crapton of assorted Imperial assets being thrown into the conflict.

Any other SM homeworld would likely just get eaten.

[Eldan]

Personally, I'd have fully commited to splitting the Empire in two, with the new galaxy map. (The RPGS seem to be going that way a bit.)

On one side, have Guilliman's ultramar-based empire. More technologically advanced, Primaris marines, relatively xeno-tolerant, sometimes works with Ynnari and Harlequins, open to pragmatism and diplomacy. Same side of the galaxy as the Tau, too.

On the other side... Terra. Headquarter of all the religious nutcases in the galaxy. Double down on the religious imagery, the inquisition, the walking cathedrals, the purity seals. ¨

(It would also help with the Imperial forces alone being twice as big as the entire rest of the game together, but that's just me.) You could even still keep marines on both sides. Ultramarines on one side, Templars on the other. Plus however the rest of the other chapters sort out.

[LansXero]

On one side, have Guilliman's ultramar-based empire. More technologically advanced, Primaris marines, relatively xeno-tolerant, sometimes works with Ynnari and Harlequins, open to pragmatism and diplomacy. Same side of the galaxy as the Tau, too.

that'd be a huge misrepresentation of both the Ynnari and the Harlequins. I dont know why people keep missing that Eldars are hugely xenophobic themselves. They're not waiting around for the Imperium to accept them, they despise humanity even while they might find them useful. Harlequins are tied to their roles even more so than craftworlders are to their paths, so they dont get leeway to deviate from whatever Cegorach has designed.

On the other side... Terra. Headquarter of all the religious nutcases in the galaxy. Double down on the religious imagery, the inquisition, the walking cathedrals, the purity seals.

¨

So, the Watchers of the Throne series.

[Gwynchan'rGwyll]

Yeah they really missed an opportunity to have Imperial vs Imperial civil wars here with nobody in the "wrong". Still the potential for a new loyalist Primarch to show up and oppose Guilliman tho.

[Bohandas]

Does anybody know if any of the other chaos gods' cults have a catchphrase akin to Khorne's "Blood for the blood god" and "Skulls for the skull throne".

(I know Slaanesh has "Things will get loud now" but that's more the noise troopers specifically rather than the entire cult, isn't it?)

[Grim Portent]

Does anybody know if any of the other chaos gods' cults have a catchphrase akin to Khorne's "Blood for the blood god" and "Skulls for the skull throne".

(I know Slaanesh has "Things will get loud now" but that's more the noise troopers specifically rather than the entire cult, isn't it?)

Not really, Khorne's the only one with a standard phrase. All the catchphrases I can think of for other chaos worshippers are specific to the group rather than to their god, both in 40k and in WHF.

'Things will get loud now,' is also only a noise marine catchphrase in Dawn of War, and caught on among fans because it's memeable, as is 'This quiet offends Slaanesh.'

[Renegade Paladin]

"Count the Seven" for Nurgle.

[Eldan]

that'd be a huge misrepresentation of both the Ynnari and the Harlequins. I dont know why people keep missing that Eldars are hugely xenophobic themselves. They're not waiting around for the Imperium to accept them, they despise humanity even while they might find them useful. Harlequins are tied to their roles even more so than craftworlders are to their paths, so they dont get leeway to deviate from whatever Cegorach has designed

Not how I meant it. I play Harlequins, after all. I meant it more like Guillman's empire going from "purge the Xeno" to "be wary of the xeno, they are probably backstabbing us, but they did help me once".

[Eldan]

Does anybody know if any of the other chaos gods' cults have a catchphrase akin to Khorne's "Blood for the blood god" and "Skulls for the skull throne".

(I know Slaanesh has "Things will get loud now" but that's more the noise troopers specifically rather than the entire cult, isn't it?)

"Burn with* the Fires of Changes" in Warhammer Fantasy, not sure it ever made it to 40k. There's also "My Thirst shall never be sated", but that's more a thing Slaanesh says, not their followers. Uh, there's also "From your wounds the fester pours", but that's not used much. Also, not at all ironically, "Seek the Beauty in all Things" is the first teaching of Nurgle, but not much of a battle cry.

*or "in"

[The Glyphstone]

At least according to a reddit post I found:

Disregarding the meme answers, the canon ones are:

Slaanesh:

"For the Dark Prince!"

"Pain and Pleasure!"

"Hear the Dirge of Slaanesh!"

"Children of the Emperor, Death to his foes!" (Emperor's Children)

Siren Songs (singing to tempt enemies into their embrace)

Tzeentch:

"All is Dust!" (Thousand Sons)

Tend not to have a warcry on account of it affirming allegiances, and giving away potential plots

Nurgle:

"Common Cold! Influenza! Nasty Rash! Distemper!"

"Rot and Ruin!/Rust and Rot!/Ruin and Rust!" (The three pustules of Nurgle represent Rot, Rust and Ruin.)

"Suffer and despair!"

Complete Silence (Death Guard)

The most common chant, from Nurgle daemons, is listing the assorted plagues in existence.

Khorne:

"Blood for the Blood God!"

"Skulls for the Skull Throne!"

Malal:

Complete silence (Sons of Malice)

[Eldan]

Oh yeah. The full chant of nurgle as I know it is ""Buboes, phlegm, blood and guts! Boils, abscesses, rot and pus! Blisters, fevers, weeping sores! From your wounds the fester pours!" and similar, from a few sources. So yeah, listing plagues. It's also what we used in the various RPGs.

[Grim Portent]

I only recall seeing that warcry attributed to a nurgle carnival.

[Forum Explorer]

Barely as in not at all. The Angels pretty much lost, and they had been weakening it all through the Cryptus system, and also had all their successors with them. Even precious Ultramar itself barely got enough people together to fend them off, and thats the larges 'empire' within the Imperium plus a crapton of assorted Imperial assets being thrown into the conflict.

Any other SM homeworld would likely just get eaten.

Right, I thought the Ultramarines did a bit better than that, but I suppose it did come down to a lucky warp rift forming from a destroyed ship.

[Cheesegear]

but I suppose it did come down to a lucky warp rift forming from a destroyed ship.

It's weird how often deus ex machinas are used to win battles in 40K.
Maybe The Emperor really does protect?

"...and then Kor'sarro Khan abandoned his oath for the exact scenario he said he wouldn't abandon his oath for."
...Oh wait. That's how T'au survived.

[Forum Explorer]

It's weird how often deus ex machinas are used to win battles in 40K.
Maybe The Emperor really does protect?

"...and then Kor'sarro Khan abandoned his oath for the exact scenario he said he wouldn't abandon his oath for."
...Oh wait. That's how T'au survived.

Tau had so many Deus Ex Machinas in that campaign, starting with the general 'This man is a famous leader, who is brave and renowed for his tactics. Now watch him basically resort to human wave tactics instead of oh, I don't know, actually using artillery?'

Or the whole last minute rescue by Farsight.

[noob]

This setting literally have physics that makes having deus ex machina happening all the time more logical than the opposite.
Ex: the warp being shaped by the collective psyches of the people.
However it should be less likely for the tau than for more psychic creatures like humans or orks.

[Lord Torath]

The narrative, is that Chaos Consumes All. The Emperor knows it. Necrons know it. Aeldari know it. The only people who don't seem to know it is the audience that doesn't read books.

"That's me and two others!"

[LansXero]

Tau had so many Deus Ex Machinas in that campaign, starting with the general 'This man is a famous leader, who is brave and renowed for his tactics. Now watch him basically resort to human wave tactics instead of oh, I don't know, actually using artillery?'

Artillery into the dust cloud? Against shields that they couldn't break from orbit?

Or the whole last minute rescue by Farsight.

Which was very well explained; the mess there is his invisible ships, not the rescue itself.

While there is a lot of hyperbole that campaign to me is the peak of narrative intertwined with gameplay. New units make a debut, new rules are added, all tied together with an exciting, if formulaic, narrative event. In-world justifications for a bunch of stuff are tried and some awesome scenes come out of it, and then they hit the reset button and back to status quo. But a reset button you knew from the start was there, so its not an asspull.