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  1. - Top - End - #271
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLII: The Dice Make Fools of Us All

    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Explorer View Post
    Wait are those Warriors on foot? If you are just using them to hold objectives, drop the special weapons and run them in groups of 5. Outside of a Raider they'll melt, so don't invest more points into them than you have to.
    At that point though, 5 model units that die to a stiff breeze get nothing from ObSec. Could do with something more mobile and forego the troops slot.

    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Explorer View Post
    I'll second dropping the Autarch. The Fire Prisms get full rerolls from their Stratagem, so the only unit who can use it is the Shining Spears, and quite frankly, Jinx/Protect is more powerful and useful. Or even Quicken to get the Shining Spears in turn 1. Also Heartstrike is a horrible Exarch power. Skilled Rider, Withdraw, or Expert Hunter are all better.
    The 3++ power is great if you can spare a Protect for them. The extra charge distance can be useful in a pinch. Expert Crafters is almost mandatory, not sure about what to pair it with, probably the cover one or you could try for +1A near objectives. Reapers always hit on 3s no matter what, so they get less use of an Autarch, or you can spend Guide on them; they dont get out-of-LoS shooting (except the Exarch if you want to) but fire-and-fade hasnt been nerfed for craftworlds so you can still move-shoot-move like a pro with them.

    Or add Harlequins instead of Craftworlds and try to get your secondaries off Hero's Path and your anti-tank from fusion pistols / haywire cannons.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLII: The Dice Make Fools of Us All

    Quote Originally Posted by LansXero View Post
    At that point though, 5 model units that die to a stiff breeze get nothing from ObSec. Could do with something more mobile and forego the troops slot.
    It's not ideal for holding objectives, that's for sure. You're more gambling on the opponent not being able to shoot them either due to terrain or because you are too up in their face to be able to divert fire to them. They can at least do actions or jump on an objective to take it away from an opponent. Really, what you need to do is actually find the points to put them in Raiders.

    Though if I was to design a Craftworld/Drukarii list, I'd likely cut out the Kabal stuff altogether, and replace it with either Wytchs or Wracks. Probably Wytchs.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLII: The Dice Make Fools of Us All

    • I'm glad we're having this talk about Troops choices; that's one of the reasons that motivated me to make a mixed list, actually. Dire Avengers don't seem much better than Kabalite Warriors at sitting back on objectives, and they're more expensive; I figured the Kabalites would at least be cheap enough to spam and try and survive by sheer numbers.
    • I didn't know about the Expert Crafters attribute from Psychic Awakening; that looks pretty strong, I'm guessing it's better than the Alaitoc attribute that gives penalties to the opponent's to-hit?
    • What would a mixed list using Wyches instead of Kabalites look like? A bunch of fast melee attackers moving quickly around the board, with some limited fire support?
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLII: The Dice Make Fools of Us All

    Quote Originally Posted by IthilanorStPete View Post
    • I'm glad we're having this talk about Troops choices; that's one of the reasons that motivated me to make a mixed list, actually. Dire Avengers don't seem much better than Kabalite Warriors at sitting back on objectives, and they're more expensive; I figured the Kabalites would at least be cheap enough to spam and try and survive by sheer numbers.
    • I didn't know about the Expert Crafters attribute from Psychic Awakening; that looks pretty strong, I'm guessing it's better than the Alaitoc attribute that gives penalties to the opponent's to-hit?
    • What would a mixed list using Wyches instead of Kabalites look like? A bunch of fast melee attackers moving quickly around the board, with some limited fire support?
    I haven't read the DE codex as extensively as you'd need to, but you cap objectives in one of several ways:
    - outlasting firepower aimed at you
    - blasting away said firepower before it gets to act
    - running circles around your slow moving opponent so they cant bring most of their list to bear against your obj. capper.

    Remember, the game is Control 2-3, not Control all the Board. Primaries are capped at 15/round and 45 overall, so going for more objectives is pointless. If you hold 2 for 4 rounds thats 40 VPs, so if you can do that and luck into holding 3 for a round thats all the points you can get. So, focus on that but only to the extent you need to secure those 2 important objectives. From there you need to build your list around your secondaries, choose your three and focus on those which are much more situational and thus require more commitment. Lastly balance whatever you have against keeping your opponent from interfering with the plan.
    Last edited by LansXero; 2021-04-14 at 06:00 PM.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLII: The Dice Make Fools of Us All

    Quote Originally Posted by IthilanorStPete View Post
    • I'm glad we're having this talk about Troops choices; that's one of the reasons that motivated me to make a mixed list, actually. Dire Avengers don't seem much better than Kabalite Warriors at sitting back on objectives, and they're more expensive; I figured the Kabalites would at least be cheap enough to spam and try and survive by sheer numbers.
    • I didn't know about the Expert Crafters attribute from Psychic Awakening; that looks pretty strong, I'm guessing it's better than the Alaitoc attribute that gives penalties to the opponent's to-hit?
    • What would a mixed list using Wyches instead of Kabalites look like? A bunch of fast melee attackers moving quickly around the board, with some limited fire support?
    I would probably go with something like this:
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    HQ
    Succubus with Triptych Whip and Precise Blows (-1 CP): 60

    Drazhar Master of Blades (Warlord): 135

    Troops
    10 Wyches with 1 Hydra Gauntlets, 1 Razorflails, 1 Shardnet and Impaler and Hekatrix with Powersword (+1 A): 125
    Raider with Dark Lance, Grisly Trophies, and Chain Snares: 95
    10 Wyches with 1 Hydra Gauntlets, 1 Razorflails, 1 Shardnet and Impaler and Hekatrix with Powersword (+1 A): 125
    Raider with Dark Lance, Grisly Trophies, and Chain Snares: 95

    Elites
    10 Incubi with Klavix: 160
    Raider with Dark Lance, Grisly Trophies and Chain Snares: 95
    10 Incubi with Klavix: 160
    Raider with Dark Lance, Grisly Trophies, and Chain Snares: 95

    Fast Attack
    20 Hellions with Helliarch(+1 T): 240

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    HQ
    Warlock Skyrunner using Protect/Jinx: 65

    Heavy Support
    Fire Prism with Spirit Stones: 180
    Fire Prism with Spirit Stones: 180
    Fire Prism with Spirit Stones: 180

    Total: 1990


    It's not as fully optimized as it could be, Cult of Strife is better than Cursed Blade, and Fire Prisms aren't the best choice to go with for the Craftworlds, but I don't think anything here is a bad choice. Fire Prisms would likely hide/sit on a back field objective while they fire, while the Wytches would be all about taking away your opponent's objectives, while Raiders would go around, bumping into everything and doing a surprisingly large amount of damage with being S8 AP-1 with 6 Attacks.

    The Warlock would either do Psychic Ritual, depending on the opponent, or would be Jinxing whatever the Fire Prisms need to shoot at. Also, not sure what to spend on the last 10 points. You can't give the Succubus a Blast Pistol, so I'm stumped. Probably Shock Prows on two of the Raiders.

    Quote Originally Posted by LansXero View Post
    I haven't read the DE codex as extensively as you'd need to, but you cap objectives in one of several ways:
    - outlasting firepower aimed at you
    - blasting away said firepower before it gets to act
    - running circles around your slow moving opponent so they cant bring most of their list to bear against your obj. capper.
    1. Haemoxytes do the first
    2. Wytchs do the second, with the added bonus of just tying things up in melee where it is a lot harder to hurt them; since they can deny falling back.
    3. And everything in a Raider can do the third.
    Last edited by Forum Explorer; 2021-04-14 at 11:25 PM.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLII: The Dice Make Fools of Us All

    Wouldn't the Raiders be S8? S6 base, +1 Bladevanes, +1 Cursed Blade?
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLII: The Dice Make Fools of Us All

    Quote Originally Posted by JNAProductions View Post
    Wouldn't the Raiders be S8? S6 base, +1 Bladevanes, +1 Cursed Blade?
    So they would! I miscounted.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLII: The Dice Make Fools of Us All

    Wyches and Incubi have a bit of trouble in soup, since PfP won’t give them adv + charge or a better invuln. They can work well because they’re strong still, but it’s good to be mindful of what you’re losing

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLII: The Dice Make Fools of Us All

    And here I am still parsing the Dark Angels Codex.
    Getting my information about Death Guard from my opponents.

    Drukhari aren't even on my radar except for the week-of-release "Eh, they're not that good, maybe wait a bit."

    But Dark Angels was January.
    I'm three months behind!
    ...Am I turning casual?
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLII: The Dice Make Fools of Us All

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    ...Am I turning casual?
    It happens to everyone eventually. Next you wake up with a wife and three kids. And a dog.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLII: The Dice Make Fools of Us All

    Quote Originally Posted by snowblizz View Post
    It happens to everyone eventually. Next you wake up with a wife and three kids. And a dog.
    🎶And you may tell yourself "This is not my beautiful house"
    And you may tell yourself "This is not my beautiful Imperial Fists army"
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    Last edited by LeSwordfish; 2021-04-15 at 08:05 AM.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLII: The Dice Make Fools of Us All

    Quote Originally Posted by Renegade Paladin View Post
    With the caveat that having a Grand Tournament right now is a stupid idea, someone did, so at least there's tournament data. The lists are supposed to be uploaded within the next couple of days. Per the TO on Facebook:
    Update: The videos from the streaming table were put on YouTube today and it turns out they clearly show the third place Chaos player cheating (mainly lying about dice results after rolling behind buildings from his opponent's perspective) dozens of times. He has been disqualified; Orks are now third place.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLII: The Dice Make Fools of Us All

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    And here I am still parsing the Dark Angels Codex.
    Getting my information about Death Guard from my opponents.

    Drukhari aren't even on my radar except for the week-of-release "Eh, they're not that good, maybe wait a bit."

    But Dark Angels was January.
    I'm three months behind!
    ...Am I turning casual?
    Coronavirus Makes Casuals Of Us All.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLII: The Dice Make Fools of Us All

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    How to play Marines;

    Choose one;
    Aggressors, Assault Terminators, or Centurions (either type). [...]

    Add; Captain (any), Chief Apothecary, Ancient. [...]

    Optional; Add a Lieutenant. If you're running with Aggressors or Centurions, you might want a Librarian, [...]

    Once you've taken as many Elite choices as you have and/or can afford...Fill the rest of your list with whatever works in your meta.
    Well, that's moderately inconvenient (but not surprising). I don't already own a large amount of spammable heavy elites, and at present, I'm not super enthused at the prospect of buying a bunch of new ones. Let's change tactics, shall we?

    I have decided that I'm going to pursue building a smallish force of Salamanders. I have a handful of models already built, and a whole pile of bits, some of which could be turned into more models. Like for most people, I imagine, the limiting factor is how many pairs of legs I can find or reclaim from older models I acquired from who-knows-where. Here, I made a list off the top of my head:

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    10+ Various 'Hero' Models (Firstborn, mostly older metal models, a few are conversion projects I'm fond of)
    - Axe Librarian(s)
    - Terminator Axe Librarian
    - Chaplain
    - Chainsword Guy(s)
    - Jumpy Lightning Claw Guy
    - Han Salio, hero of my Blood Angel days from way back when
    - Banner Guy who doesn't have a banner and as far as I know never did
    - Vulkan He'stan
    - And others
    10+ Bolter Firstborn
    1 Melta Firstborn
    5 Intercessors

    5 Assault Terminators (unbuilt, but obviously would be TH/SS if I have the parts)
    8 Bolter Veterans
    2 Veteran Heavy Flamers
    Ironclad (2 HF)
    [Ven] Dread (2 Las, ML)

    10 Assault Firstborn (foot)

    12+ Heavy Weapon Firstborn (various)
    3 Eradicators
    3 Centurions (unarmed)

    1 Techmarine (Harness)
    2 Drop Pods
    2-3 Rhino Chassis

    That's about what I'm looking at. Based on what I've seen going around, plus the advice above, a list I could build into without buying much would be something like this:

    Spoiler
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    CHAPTER
    Salamanders, or a successor there-of, depending on what rules I wanted to use.

    HQ
    Captain, ~100pts
    - Decent weapon and/or shield (Relic?)
    Librarian, ~100pts
    - Smite, Defensive Power(s)

    ELITES
    Assault Centurions 3, 165pts
    - Flamers, Assault Launchers

    Ironclad Dreadnaught, 150pts + 70pts
    - 2 Heavy Flamers
    + Dreadnaught Drop Pod (I assume these look the same as troop pods, since they used to be the same thing?)

    Assault Terminators 5, 215pts
    - TH/SS

    Company Veterans 4, 136pts
    - Combi-gravs & Storm Shields

    Apothecary, 90pts
    - Chief

    Company Ancient, 75pts

    TROOPS
    Tacticals 5, ~110pts
    - Combiweapon, Special or Heavy Weapon

    Tacticals 5, ~110pts
    - Combiweapon, Special or Heavy Weapon

    Intercessors 5, 105pts
    - Bolt Rifles, AGL

    HEAVY SUPPORT
    Eradicators 3, 155pts
    -2 Heavy Melta Rifles, 1 Multimelta (Should they have the Assault ones instead? I couldn't really tell if boosted damage was worth more than some mobile accuracy)

    Devastators 5, 135pts
    -3 Heavy Bolters, 1 Missile Launcher

    TOTAL: That's about 1750pts, depending on the exact upgrades certain models were given.


    Is this essentially functional? Besides the Ironclad, which I understand isn't a standard Good Model (but is one of my favorites regardless), what tweaks would you make? Let's pretend I refuse to buy more than one new kit (untrue, since I bought those Eradicators literally yesterday, but we're pretending here), but that I can build or convert any kind of Firstborn models (almost certainly true). What would you recommend as the way to expand to 2000? Is it just "get more of the [Elite Unit] that you only have a minimum squad of"? I heard generally good things about Attack Bikes and Vanguard Veterans at some point, but that might be old news. Are the named characters (Vulkan and/or Adrax) worth using over generic characters?


    Quote Originally Posted by Renegade Paladin View Post
    Update: The videos from the streaming table were put on YouTube today and it turns out they clearly show the third place Chaos player cheating (mainly lying about dice results after rolling behind buildings from his opponent's perspective) dozens of times. He has been disqualified; Orks are now third place.
    ...But...you know you're on a streaming table. What kind of arrogance do you have to have in order to cheat with a camera on you? And to do so 'dozens of times'? That's amazing to me.
    Last edited by Hootman; 2021-04-15 at 03:04 PM.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLII: The Dice Make Fools of Us All

    Quote Originally Posted by Renegade Paladin View Post
    Update: The videos from the streaming table were put on YouTube today and it turns out they clearly show the third place Chaos player cheating (mainly lying about dice results after rolling behind buildings from his opponent's perspective) dozens of times. He has been disqualified; Orks are now third place.
    Oh wow, that's remarkably gross.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLII: The Dice Make Fools of Us All

    Quote Originally Posted by Hootman View Post
    Is this essentially functional? Besides the Ironclad, which I understand isn't a standard Good Model (but is one of my favorites regardless), what tweaks would you make? Let's pretend I refuse to buy more than one new kit (untrue, since I bought those Eradicators literally yesterday, but we're pretending here), but that I can build or convert any kind of Firstborn models (almost certainly true). What would you recommend as the way to expand to 2000? Is it just "get more of the [Elite Unit] that you only have a minimum squad of"? I heard generally good things about Attack Bikes and Vanguard Veterans at some point, but that might be old news. Are the named characters (Vulkan and/or Adrax) worth using over generic characters?
    Its basically functional. The Dread isn't awful, the Termis and Centurions are fine as are the Devastators and Eradicators. Replace the Tacticals with almost literally anything else.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLII: The Dice Make Fools of Us All

    Quote Originally Posted by Dragonus45 View Post
    Oh wow, that's remarkably gross.
    Yeah. Well-connected rumor (being an ITC TO I'm in the right groups) is that the ITC plans to strip him of his points (he's presently #1 in the rankings) and bar him from gaining any more for the rest of the year.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLII: The Dice Make Fools of Us All

    Quote Originally Posted by Renegade Paladin View Post
    Yeah. Well-connected rumor (being an ITC TO I'm in the right groups) is that the ITC plans to strip him of his points (he's presently #1 in the rankings) and bar him from gaining any more for the rest of the year.
    You'd think they'd just permanently ban him from the ITC ranking.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLII: The Dice Make Fools of Us All

    Quote Originally Posted by Hootman View Post
    ...But...you know you're on a streaming table. What kind of arrogance do you have to have in order to cheat with a camera on you? And to do so 'dozens of times'? That's amazing to me.
    We usually refer to these as football* players.



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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLII: The Dice Make Fools of Us All

    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Explorer View Post
    You'd think they'd just permanently ban him from the ITC ranking.
    Depending on the penalties laid out by the ITC / TOs they might not have grounds for this. Which means its a ****ty set of penalties, but you're only bound by what you signed up for.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLII: The Dice Make Fools of Us All

    Quote Originally Posted by Hootman View Post
    ...But...you know you're on a streaming table. What kind of arrogance do you have to have in order to cheat with a camera on you? And to do so 'dozens of times'? That's amazing to me.
    The X-wing tournament community had a rash of people caught on stream cheating a few years ago. It honestly just seems to become a habbit people don't think about until they get busted.

    I think knowing you're being streamed can stress people out*, leading to a desire to be seen playing expertly, ironically encouraging chronic cheaters to cheat.

    *Especially if you're playing a ubiquitous list and you make a huge mistake.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLII: The Dice Make Fools of Us All

    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Explorer View Post
    You'd think they'd just permanently ban him from the ITC ranking.
    Oh, he's still on the ladder, but...

    I need to get a tournament in sometime before the season's over just so I can be ranked higher. Maybe it'll be safe by autumn.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLII: The Dice Make Fools of Us All

    Quote Originally Posted by Renegade Paladin View Post
    Thats a terrible solution.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLII: The Dice Make Fools of Us All

    Quote Originally Posted by LansXero View Post
    Thats a terrible solution.
    Apart from the Las Vegas Open and Bay Area Open, the ITC itself doesn't administer any tournaments. They can't call me up and say "TJ Lanigan is not allowed to play in your tournament" (though in the unlikely event it ever comes up, of course he isn't, but that's my call not theirs). The only thing they can do is refuse to score him on their ladder; that's the only part of the process they control.
    "Courage is the complement of fear. A fearless man cannot be courageous. He is also a fool." -- Robert Heinlein


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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLII: The Dice Make Fools of Us All

    Quote Originally Posted by Renegade Paladin View Post
    Apart from the Las Vegas Open and Bay Area Open, the ITC itself doesn't administer any tournaments. They can't call me up and say "TJ Lanigan is not allowed to play in your tournament" (though in the unlikely event it ever comes up, of course he isn't, but that's my call not theirs). The only thing they can do is refuse to score him on their ladder; that's the only part of the process they control.
    They should just erase him from the ladder altogether and dissallow any future entry on his name for x months / years. Seems like a semantic difference, but its important to take a firm stand considering this guy used to sell his 'coaching' services. High profile cases make terrific examples, so going overboard is the best course of action.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLII: The Dice Make Fools of Us All

    Quote Originally Posted by LansXero View Post
    They should just erase him from the ladder altogether and dissallow any future entry on his name for x months / years. Seems like a semantic difference, but its important to take a firm stand considering this guy used to sell his 'coaching' services. High profile cases make terrific examples, so going overboard is the best course of action.
    I don't know. I can only speculate on why they chose to zero him out; if I were to take my guesses it's probably to do with BCP's app architecture. It may well not support having events with no first place winner recorded, which would happen if he was erased. I can certainly envision it not occurring to the developers that they might have to do that.
    "Courage is the complement of fear. A fearless man cannot be courageous. He is also a fool." -- Robert Heinlein


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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLII: The Dice Make Fools of Us All

    Topic shift: Playing Harlequins at 1k makes me feel so dim-witted. They demand nigh-perfect play because of how sensitive they are to positioning, and the large number of pregame CP spent gives even less flexibility. But I know they’ve got the tools, they’ve just also got a steep learning curve.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLII: The Dice Make Fools of Us All

    Quote Originally Posted by Silvaria View Post
    Topic shift: Playing Harlequins at 1k makes me feel so dim-witted. They demand nigh-perfect play because of how sensitive they are to positioning, and the large number of pregame CP spent gives even less flexibility. But I know they’ve got the tools, they’ve just also got a steep learning curve.
    Correct. Unlike most armies, Harlequins don't have good stat lines.
    The models are terrible.
    What makes Harlequins one of the best armies in the game, is their Stratagems, Psychic Powers, Relics, Warlord and Faction Traits. Everything that makes Harlequins good - or bad - is entirely down to the pilot of the list, making bad choices both during list creation, and after. It's probably a very good thing that most armies are not like Harlequins, else the game would die pretty quickly. All of the best units and Factions in the game, are often considered the best, because they're so simple to use. Harlequins, are arguably the only army in the game like themselves - again, I say that positively.

    All of that, and spamming the **** out of Fusion Pistols. Of course. If you aren't drowning your opponent in Fusion shots, you're not doing it right.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLII: The Dice Make Fools of Us All

    Well, that explains why I've never won a game with my Harlies. I've spent 20 years being terrible at Warhammer, I'm not About to Change
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLII: The Dice Make Fools of Us All

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    Correct. Unlike most armies, Harlequins don't have good stat lines.
    The models are terrible.
    What makes Harlequins one of the best armies in the game, is their Stratagems, Psychic Powers, Relics, Warlord and Faction Traits. Everything that makes Harlequins good - or bad - is entirely down to the pilot of the list, making bad choices both during list creation, and after. It's probably a very good thing that most armies are not like Harlequins, else the game would die pretty quickly. All of the best units and Factions in the game, are often considered the best, because they're so simple to use. Harlequins, are arguably the only army in the game like themselves - again, I say that positively.

    All of that, and spamming the **** out of Fusion Pistols. Of course. If you aren't drowning your opponent in Fusion shots, you're not doing it right.
    Yep. Although I think fusion is a little overemphasized, I’ve gotten more consistent mileage out of just blizzards of S:5 AP -2 attacks, D:2 at need, ideally rerolling wounds

    As a demonstration, in the last 1k game I played, I got all the buffs together to almost totally stymie my opponent’s T1, and then wiped 650 or so points in T2, including slicing through 20x Warriors, 3x Tomb Blades, a Catacomb Command Barge, and a Triarch Stalker. Very little of that was Fusion, because Quantum Shielding, mostly it came from Haywire, Zephyrglaives, mortal wounds and punching.

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