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2021-06-26, 06:27 PM (ISO 8601)
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Talk How colossally dumb Dorukan was [Untagged SoD spoilers]
I mean he knew there was an Epic level Lich Necromancer camped outside his castle for months and took no steps to protect himself from negative energy despite them being readily available to a Wizard of his power.
Are we sure his INT was actually high enough to cast spells?
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2021-06-26, 06:44 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2019
Re: Talk How colossally dumb Dorukan was [Untagged SoD spoilers]
Sure, but he also had to start fighting on short notice. He didn't spend those few months preparing for battle, he was going about his daily business while mostly ignoring Xykon. And even though I doubt he'd admit to it, he acted rashly on impulse upon learning that Xykon was keeping Lirian's soul hostage.
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2021-06-26, 06:59 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Talk How colossally dumb Dorukan was [Untagged SoD spoilers]
A couple points to note. First, liches do not in fact get the ability to inflict negative levels as an innate ability. They do have a negative energy touch, but that's just 1d8+5 Will for half, which is trivial at Dorukan's level. Xykon knows Energy Drain as a spell, but Dorukan didn't have any way of knowing that, since he wouldn't have seen Xykon fight before the final showdown. Second, how exactly was Dorukan supposed to have protected himself? Death Ward is a divine spell, and he's an arcane caster.
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Warhammer 40K: Where the faction that is a cross between the Inquisition and Space Nazis are the good guys.
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2021-06-26, 08:33 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2015
Re: Talk How colossally dumb Dorukan was [Untagged SoD spoilers]
A. He had no reason to expect negative energy. Liches only have one negative energy based ability inherently, and it's a 1d8+5 Will save for half: For an Epic Level Wizard, with the appropriate Will save, that's...Maybe impossible to fail. B. Even if he tried to Ward, he'd need to spend a Wish or Limited Wish to do it. Death Ward isn't on the Wizard spell list. And, besides, Xykon has Superb Dispelling. I can see why he didn't think it worth spending the resources for a risk that minor. C. Why are we assuming Dorukan would have a vast knowledge of undead? Knowledge: Religion (the relevant skill) is a Wizard class skill, sure, as are all Knowledge skills, but, with Soon and Lirian also having it on their lists, I could easily see Dorukan not seeing it as worth the skill points.
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2021-06-26, 08:51 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2020
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Re: Talk How colossally dumb Dorukan was [Untagged SoD spoilers]
Xykon somehow got an item to protect himself from positive energy, so Dorukan could have managed it if he wanted to.
Death effects are one of the basic things optimized characters defend themselves against at high level, because dying is bad. OotS characters aren't optimized though, so I guess Dorukan never figured this out despite making it to epic levels?
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2021-06-26, 09:17 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2015
Re: Talk How colossally dumb Dorukan was [Untagged SoD spoilers]
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2021-06-26, 09:33 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2006
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Re: Talk How colossally dumb Dorukan was [Untagged SoD spoilers]
Nitpick: Xykon is not a capital-N Necromancer, he's a sorcerer. He has a reasonable pile of necromantic spells, but he's not a specialist wizard.
As an addendum, wizards and wizard-adjacent people in OotS have a consistent history of denigrating and underestimating sorcerers in general and Xykon in particular. To wit: Xavion and Fyron in SoD itself, Eugene, V, Roy, the wizard who served V the summons. It wouldn't be too much of a stretch to add Dorukan to that list.
EDIT: indeed, it's right there on the page; thanks, Rrmcklin!Last edited by Gurgeh; 2021-06-26 at 11:25 PM.
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2021-06-26, 10:43 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Talk How colossally dumb Dorukan was [Untagged SoD spoilers]
It wouldn't be a stretch, because Dorukan made it clear he thinks that way. He explicitly states that Xykon cannot defeat him because his magic wasn't "earned" but something he was born with.
I'd just like to point out that saying that something unsupported is the case unless someone else can prove that it is not is an utter failure of logic. - Kish
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2021-06-27, 02:19 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2015
Re: Talk How colossally dumb Dorukan was [Untagged SoD spoilers]
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2021-06-27, 05:28 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2017
Re: Talk How colossally dumb Dorukan was [Untagged SoD spoilers]
Didn't the Giant toy with the idea of showing absolutely no panels of Dorukan and Xykon fighting, because the fight was a foregone conclusion, the real drama was between Redcloak and Righteye, no matter what he drew someone would go 'Why didn't Dorukan cast X? PLOT HOLE", and it'd really wind up the optimisers if Xykon just came back to Redcloak dragging Dorukans corpse with no explanation?
My take on it is Dorukan wasn't Batman. He didn't plan ahead, he rushed in because of a mix of anger, overconfidence and wanting to save Lirians soul ASAP.
Also, and I can't state this boldly enough, Optimised play isn't dramatically compelling
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2021-06-27, 05:41 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2008
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- Tokyo
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Re: Talk How colossally dumb Dorukan was [Untagged SoD spoilers]
Optimization also depends on having access to all the rules to know all the options. It's likely not the case that people in OOTS world know all the rules for all the classes that are not their own, and possibly not even all the future possibilities beyond their level in their own class.
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2021-06-27, 06:21 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2017
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Re: Talk How colossally dumb Dorukan was [Untagged SoD spoilers]
Yeah, between the Order having no idea what a phylactery is, Xykon only hearing the word lich two minutes before becoming one, and the relative dearth of people knowing that a vampire and their host aren't the same person, it looks like the specifics of necromancy are rather unknown to people who aren't necromancers themselves.
Forum Wisdom
Mage avatar by smutmulch & linklele.
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2021-06-27, 06:25 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2007
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- Beverly, MA, USA
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Re: Talk How colossally dumb Dorukan was [Untagged SoD spoilers]
To be fair, this is a situation where Dorukan likely did know all of the relevant rules. Wizards and sorcerers share a spell list (with some few insignificant, irrelevant exceptions), and Dorukan had spent over sixty years as an epic-level wizard. He very likely knew about any core spell that Xykon could throw at him. If he had prepared properly, he likely would have been able to defeat Xykon in a head-to-head fight.
Now, of course, Dorukan was a person with human weaknesses like impulsivity and hubris; it makes perfect sense that he didn't act like an optimized machine, but rather underestimated Xykon and paid the ultimate price for doing so. I have no problem with how the plot played out, even though a big, childlike part of me cringes at the fact that the Bad Guy wasn't defeated in a scene where he so easily could have been. Still, I don't think we need to resort to blaming the OOTSverse's lack of optimization for Dorukan's defeat. It's his human qualities that let him down, not his access to knowledge or lack thereof. (Which I guess doesn't make for the best moral - "The bad guy who stripped away all of his humanity to become an undead monstrosity defeats the good guy because the good guy still had his humanity intact" hardly seems like an inspiring takeaway.)Last edited by Emanick; 2021-06-27 at 06:25 AM.
Number of Character Appearances VII - To Absent Friends
Currently playing a level 20 aasimar necromancer named Zebulun Salathiel and a level 9 goliath diviner named Lo-Kag.
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2021-06-27, 06:29 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2020
Re: Talk How colossally dumb Dorukan was [Untagged SoD spoilers]
Last edited by Metastachydium; 2021-06-27 at 06:34 AM. Reason: Just remembered that Iron Mage Necromancy has a name.
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2021-06-27, 06:32 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2008
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Re: Talk How colossally dumb Dorukan was [Untagged SoD spoilers]
We know they share a spell list because that is meta rule knowledge available to readers familiar with D&D rules. OOTSworld breaks 4th wall and incorporates meta knowledge to come extent, but there also is evidence that individuals don't have access to all the meta knowledge like that, so it's certainly possible that Dorukan was aware of all the spells Xykon had access to, but it's not guaranteed.
That said, I agree overall with what you said about why he was defeated.
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2021-06-27, 06:34 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2006
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- England. Ish.
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Re: Talk How colossally dumb Dorukan was [Untagged SoD spoilers]
Not preparing? Quite the opposite, in fact.
Page 102:
Frame 3: "I've been preparing for this fight since you arrived on my doorstep."
Frame 4: "Why should I [have come out]? You didn't have anything I wanted until today"
Frame 7: "I came out because you were dumb enough to show me where you were keeping her"
The only "dumb" thing Dorukan can be accused of was - ironically - overestimating Xykon. He obviously expected Xykon to use a more varied spell set (albiet not as extensive as his) rather than just spamming Energy Drain on him.
That was the flaw - he was expecting at least some degree of art, and he got a sledgehammer instead. Xykon's speech even explains this.Warning: This posting may contain wit, wisdom, pathos, irony, satire, sarcasm and puns. And traces of nut.
"The main skill of a good ruler seems to be not preventing the conflagrations but rather keeping them contained enough they rate more as campfires." Rogar Demonblud
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2021-06-27, 07:01 AM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2018
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- Morocco
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2021-06-27, 07:05 AM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2018
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- Morocco
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2021-06-27, 09:57 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2015
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2021-06-27, 10:44 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2009
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- Birmingham, AL
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2021-06-27, 11:03 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2020
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2021-06-27, 12:37 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2004
Re: Talk How colossally dumb Dorukan was [Untagged SoD spoilers]
What exactly do you not consider "one of the basic things optimized characters defend themselves against at high level"? What spell could Xykon have used that would not have you declaring Dorukan colossally dumb for not having invented and used an Immunity to Xykon spell?
If your case is: The wizard should not have lost because he's a wizard,
then I would venture that your analysis is not real applicable to OotS. Or any other story I ever have read. Or any D&D game I've ever played in. Or read about. Or anything other than the Tippyverse, to be blunt.
Neither Evershifting List of Perfectly Prepared Spells nor Grounds to Howl at the DM If I Ever Lose is actually a wizard class feature.Orth Plays: Currently Baldur's Gate II
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2021-06-27, 01:45 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2020
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Re: Talk How colossally dumb Dorukan was [Untagged SoD spoilers]
As people have noted, I think Superb Dispelling would have been difficult to defend against.
If I were to rewrite the scene, Dorukan would have had a one use immunity item, or a counterspell, and Xykon would have brute forced his way with multiple castings anyway. Would have shown Dorukan to have some preparedness while still arrogantly ignoring the main strength of sorcerers: their many spontaneous spell slots.
Of course this is all nitpicky and unnecessary, since the Giant got across what he wanted to anyways with less complicated detail. Just would have been nice to have the wizard put up more of a fight in a scene illustrating that wizards aren't the best at everything. Other fights, like V vs Z or Nale vs Malack, do show that a caster can be well-prepared and still have holes in their defenses.
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2021-06-27, 02:28 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2009
Re: Talk How colossally dumb Dorukan was [Untagged SoD spoilers]
Since this happened in main comic don't think a spoiler is needed.
Tsukiko does seem to understand how necromancy works, and even the physical capabilities of her undead minions. Note that she wears a ring of negative energy protection, so she can get her "hugs". Red Cloak has her minions take it off her before they drained her.
Her one mistake (admittedly a dozy) is believing that they are capable of love."That's a horrible idea! What time?"
T-Shirt given to me by a good friend.. "in fairness, I was unsupervised at the time".
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2021-06-27, 03:44 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2017
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- France
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Re: Talk How colossally dumb Dorukan was [Untagged SoD spoilers]
Last edited by Fyraltari; 2021-06-27 at 03:45 PM.
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2021-06-27, 04:30 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2009
Re: Talk How colossally dumb Dorukan was [Untagged SoD spoilers]
"That's a horrible idea! What time?"
T-Shirt given to me by a good friend.. "in fairness, I was unsupervised at the time".
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2021-06-27, 09:50 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2009
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- Somewhere in Utah...
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Re: Talk How colossally dumb Dorukan was [Untagged SoD spoilers]
No mention of the fact that Dorukon spent a round casting prismatic spray, only to find it doesn't work in a black-and-white comic?
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2021-06-27, 10:33 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2013
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2021-06-28, 12:29 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2004
Re: Talk How colossally dumb Dorukan was [Untagged SoD spoilers]
Wouldn't have, since epic spells don't work that way. It would have showcased one thing alone: that Xykon was higher level than Dorukan. Which was probably true, and might have satisfied the "optimization is obligatory" crowd on the forum by reducing the fight to a simple "26 > 22," but whether it was or not was not what Rich wanted to showcase.
Orth Plays: Currently Baldur's Gate II
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2021-06-28, 01:51 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2020
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