OOTS #1239 - The Discussion Thread

[Fyraltari]

The comic has a lot of Deus ex Machina moments, but as we all know, "Awesome" makes a great way to pave over plot holes, especially if we have a reveal that seems obvious in retrospect but is otherwise difficult to guess.

Order weakened, surrounded by Tarquin's army and no escape possible? Airship to the rescue!
Order defeated, about to be devoured by vampires? Durkon retakes control!

Neither of these are Dei ex Machinis.

[Windscion]

He'd probably stay large enough for long enough for Belkar to climb him to jump at the bee holder.

And now I'm thinking about the Beeserker (http://www.beeserker.com/).

Also, more relevant, I wonder if the crossbow bolts are poisoned, and how many excellent observations Minrah could make while she is the last to be taken down.

[TRH]

Is Polymorph affected by anti-magic? It is a permanent effect.

Pretty sure it would be. It's instantaneous effects that would not be affected by anti-magic or dispels.

[bunsen_h]

And I note that in the last panel, Haley just took an arrow (bolt?) to the knee arch.

The arrowhead is still visible, so I'm certain that it didn't hit.

The way the arrows wobble midair is a bit strange though. It's this just an artistic way to show them being not aimed at all, or is this the effect of some kind of magical protection?

It could be Sunny using telekinesis.

I really expected that someone would still have a mundane source of light on them, though. Most games I have had one at low levels, and never got around to removing it when everyone’s casting light spells.

Oh, they probably do... stuffed into Bags of Holding.

From the SRD:


So if The Giant is being strict Bloodfeast better hope not too much time has passed since he was last sealed inside.

I can easily imagine that Rich's take would be that it makes very little sense for the amount of air, and the time to suffocation, to be independent of the kind of creature inside the bag. Unless, I suppose, that's an intentional aspect of the enchantment that creates the bag, but I find it hard to believe that someone would intentionally build that factor in.

Gravity is a nice mistress?

Heh.

Arrows wobble in real life, it's just arrows are typically moving too fast to see clearly.

I think I'd call that a "wiggle" or "flex" rather than a "wobble". "Wobble" implies a more chaotic motion, it seems to me. At any rate, I think the arrow on the right of panel 6 is clearly being deflected.

[hroþila]

Neither of these are Dei ex Machinis.

I like how the pluralization suggests that this hypothetical ancient theatre keeps separate machines for each god that will pop up at different points in the narrative.

[gatemansgc]

Oh well. I was hoping to see Bloodfeast. Maybe next time....

hopefully this means that the giant is planning on using the return of bloodfeast one day!

[KorvinStarmast]

Also didn't Mercer DM 5e?mever saw but I imagine he would have done the current edition.

Yes, he morphed his existent Pathfinder (1e) campaign into D&D 5e, and he homebrews heavily. FWIW, the time limit for air in a BoH is the same in 5e as it is in 3.5e.

Edit: Also, Serini thinks Haley is the leader. A tantalizing bit of information that she doesn't have complete intelligence on the order.

Haley is certainly a leader in the OoTS. With Roy incapacitated by poison, it's very much "the deputy takes over for the marshal" kind of situation.

[RicB76]

What do we know about the information she has on the Order? It could be that her information is from when Roy was dead, therefore she thinks he's a new addition. Also just be that she's a strong independant female and sees the same traits in Haley. Not sure how they get out of this without detecting the door shenanigans. Does the AMF effect Elans bard songs?

[RatedArgh]

How long has it been (in game time) since Roy was resurrected? Possible she did most of her scrying during the time he was dead?

[LasVegasLawyer]

I can understand why it's being done, but it is funny to me how conspicuously they are avoiding saying the word '[REDACTED]'.

I am only mildly disappointed that Belkar's announcement did not include a verbal pause. As in "Behold! er... what's going on?"

[Fyraltari]

I like how the pluralization suggests that this hypothetical ancient theatre keeps separate machines for each god that will pop up at different points in the narrative.

"While the play does a more than laudable work in exploring its hero's tortured psyche as the consequences for his initial hybris pile on, it really shines thanks to its use of cutting-edge technology. The effects simply fade seamlessly into the spectacle."

Gn. Felix Labienus, theater critic

[Doug Lampert]

Belkar: Behold!
Sunny: What do you think I am doing?

Also can Sunny actually see them in the dark?

60' darkvision is part of the default for aberrations, so if they are within 60' it can.

[TRH]

What do we know about the information she has on the Order? It could be that her information is from when Roy was dead, therefore she thinks he's a new addition. Also just be that she's a strong independant female and sees the same traits in Haley. Not sure how they get out of this without detecting the door shenanigans. Does the AMF effect Elans bard songs?

It's kind of freaky exactly how precise her knowledge of the Sapphire Guard was, to the point where she knew that O-Chul tried to destroy Soon's gem, and presumably that he was prevented from doing so. Seems a little improbable that she would have personally snuck into Azure City just to watch it happen, so it seems safe to assume she either has access to a lot of scrying spells, or else that she's been in contact with someone who does.

Actually, that makes me wonder if she's talked to Eugene at all, because he's got the scrying power, the knowledge of and interest in the Gates and a comparable level of confidence in Roy's ability to beat Xykon.

[Obscuraphile]

It's kind of freaky exactly how precise her knowledge of the Sapphire Guard was, to the point where she knew that O-Chul tried to destroy Soon's gem, and presumably that he was prevented from doing so.

I’m not so sure she had positive knowledge of O-Chul’s past actions so much as she has a highly developed awareness of how a paladin’s mind works and got sort of lucky in her phrasing. She says “promise me you would never destroy a gate under any circumstances” and O-Chul being honorable, and having attempted to destroy a gate in the past, balks.

Edit: wait, never mind. I was forgetting the final panel of that page

[TRH]

I’m not so sure she had positive knowledge of O-Chul’s past actions so much as she has a highly developed awareness of how a paladin’s mind works and got sort of lucky in her phrasing. She says “promise me you would never destroy a gate under any circumstances” and O-Chul being honorable, and having attempted to destroy a gate in the past, balks.

She specifically mentioned that his katana did it, but not that he did it with his katana.

[Windscion]

It's kind of freaky exactly how precise her knowledge of the Sapphire Guard was ...

Any rogue, especially an epic (or near-) one, can seem more knowledgeable than they are. How much of her mistaken impressions are ignorance and how much bias isn't yet clear.

[TRH]

Any rogue, especially an epic (or near-) one, can seem more knowledgeable than they are. How much of her mistaken impressions are ignorance and how much bias isn't yet clear.

Knowing that his weapon destroyed the Gate without him actually doing it is neither biased nor ignorant. That's a pretty specific truth.

[Schroeswald]

It looks like Mr Scruffy noticed something in the penultimate panel and is trying to warn Belkar about it in the final one, I wonder what he noticed.

[Quizatzhaderac]

I think I'd call that a "wiggle" or "flex" rather than a "wobble". "Wobble" implies a more chaotic motion, it seems to me. At any rate, I think the arrow on the right of panel 6 is clearly being deflected.

My interpretation is that it's the top of a parabola, with the added oscillatory motion of the arrows added haphazardly.

[doriel]

What do we know about the information she has on the Order? It could be that her information is from when Roy was dead,...

Dammit, you beat to it while I was making the account just to say that!!!!! Haley was indeed the leader at the time, and she made a good job there.
Well, I'll just add that it means she has a backdoor in the cloister spell (and that's consistent with what we know so far)

[Rogan]

My interpretation is that it's the top of a parabola, with the added oscillatory motion of the arrows added haphazardly.

Now that you mention this...
This would require the maximum range of the arrows to be nearly the same than the maximum range of the hammer (without all the magic enchanting the hammer throw).

This seems to be unlikely...

[Wintermoot]

It looks like Mr Scruffy noticed something in the penultimate panel and is trying to warn Belkar about it in the final one, I wonder what he noticed.

My interpretation was just Mr. Scruffy being concerned about where his nap buddy went.

[NerdyKris]

Yeah, she's basically pulling that Tarquin thing when he believed that the member of the Order that resembles him the most must also be the leader. And frankly, that's just sad.

It's also keeping with the character flaw of every member of the Order of the Scribble; believing that they are the most superior class and refusing to work together to complement their abilities and cover weaknesses.

[dancrilis]

I can easily imagine that Rich's take would be that it makes very little sense for the amount of air, and the time to suffocation, to be independent of the kind of creature inside the bag. Unless, I suppose, that's an intentional aspect of the enchantment that creates the bag, but I find it hard to believe that someone would intentionally build that factor in.

It does have the benefit of giving all creatures their own 10 minutes which could be useful.

We also know that potions scale to size so if magic discounts size for potion impact then it seems reasonable that magic would discount size for bags of holding - and that the text of 10 minutes would remain regardless of creature type/size etc.

Not that I think The Giant is going to 'gotta' Belkar and give have Bloodfeast suffocate - I would see no point in him doing so at least.

[DLcygnet]

Well, since Serini took out the fighter first... I guess it's time for Minrah and her super secret fighter powers to come to the rescue!

Let's see what this kid can do!

[TRH]

It's also keeping with the character flaw of every member of the Order of the Scribble; believing that they are the most superior class and refusing to work together to complement their abilities and cover weaknesses.

I always thought the Class-based chauvinism was just a Soon and Dorukan thing. Girard was more about the power of family than of class, and Lirian just seemed kind of lackadaisical in general. I can't imagine any of the others taking Gate-stealers alive and not even guarding them.

[Crusher]

What do we know about the information she has on the Order? It could be that her information is from when Roy was dead, therefore she thinks he's a new addition. Also just be that she's a strong independant female and sees the same traits in Haley. Not sure how they get out of this without detecting the door shenanigans. Does the AMF effect Elans bard songs?

But then she'd only know about Haley and Belkar, since Roy's period of being dead almost exactly coincided with the Order being split up. If she knows anything about Elan, V or Durkon it'd be evidence she was using Bluff and Sense Motive against O'chul rather than having been scrying on people.

I personally think either is possible. An Epic Rogue is capable of just about anything, but a semi-maimed grandma might also not want to work THAT hard if she doesn't have to.

Edit - An epic rogue would also be capable of epic shirking.

[Raven777]

Seeing high level PCs shut down when you turn off the magic never gets old.

[ATHATH]

Can Belkar still release Bloodfeast by just throwing the bag of holding up high enough for it to leave the antimagic cone? If he throws it pointing downwards, Bloodfeast could fall out of it and into the antimagic cone.

'Course, that'd require a conscious member of the Order to actually be strong enough to throw a bag that high without magical assistance.

[Peelee]

Can Belkar still release Bloodfeast by just throwing the bag of holding up high enough for it to leave the antimagic cone? If he throws it pointing downards, Bloodfeast could fall out and into the antimagic cone.

If things could just fall out that way, there's no guarantee Bloodfeast would fall out first. Unless the bag of holding is otherwise remarkably empty.