Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLII: The Dice Make Fools of Us All

[Squark]

I don't have the new dex but the **** is a Dakka weapon?

Essentially, it's a variant of rapid fire that allows for ratios other than 2:1, like 5:3 or 16:12.

Relevant Preview Article if you can tolerate the Warcomm hype machine.

[LeSwordfish]

Certain Ork rules also interact specifically with Dakka weapons.

I do like the look of that Combat Patrol box for Orks, can see a couple of those being a fun start to an army.

[Hootman]

I don't have the new dex but the **** is a Dakka weapon?

Yeah, as Squark said, it's basically 'different Rapid Fire'. Most guns with it are roughly 1.4:1 in terms of dice output inside half range (so, a little less than half again as many shots), which is a big improvement if you never cared about Advance-and-Fire. Or if you were Lootaboyz, who went from Heavy d3 (roll once for the unit) to Dakka 3/2, and can now charge or ride full-speed around the battlefield while spraying bullets everywhere.

I do like the look of that Combat Patrol box for Orks, can see a couple of those being a fun start to an army.

It does seem like a solid box, for the most part. Like basically all Start Collecting-type boxes, you'll end up with copies of at least one model that does you no good if you're not a kitbasher (in this case, the Mega Warboss). I'm pleased to see the Deffkoptas making a return; they were a huge boon in the old Black Reach box, once people got their heads around being a sneaky outflanking rokkit-delivery-system, and they're basically capable of the same shenanigans today. In true orky fashion, they're even less accurate most of the time, but have even more shots, so it kind of balances out. Maybe.

As the rest of the internet is already complaining about, I am also mildly annoyed that the Boyz in the Combat Patrol box appear to be monopose. This doesn't matter to everyone, obviously, and people who already have 200lb bitz boxes will be able to kustomize da boyz to their heart's content. New players will be out of luck at first, though. The thing that matters a lot more is that the weapon selection for the models is terrible--you're forced to split between Choppas (5) and Shootas (3), with mandatory special weapons (1), plus the Nob. If this sprue ends up being the repackage for a New Boyz box, getting into Orks will become a huge pain in the butt due to model distribution. At least in the Combat Patrol box you have two copies of the kit, so you can almost have your weapon types segregated into different units.

Trying to do the math on how many boxes you'd need to purchase to get even a mild green tide (with non-stupid weapons) going is hurting my brain, so let's just hope they make a more flexible kit for general release.



...I've been putting a lot of effort into learning all the new Ork stuff. Maybe I should try to write a guide? Then everyone would have something to reference, and I could reinforce my understanding and maybe find some new tricks. Sure, why not.

[LeSwordfish]

It's interesting - I would have confidently expected a seperate non-monopose Boyz box soon after the Combat Patrol (see the Shadowspear models, or the Sisters of Battle) but then, Slaves To Darkness still have monopose chaos warriors and knights.

The megaboss will at least be easy to shift on ebay for a while.

[Blackhawk748]

The thing that matters a lot more is that the weapon selection for the models is terrible--you're forced to split between Choppas (5) and Shootas (3), with mandatory special weapons (1), plus the Nob. If this sprue ends up being the repackage for a New Boyz box, getting into Orks will become a huge pain in the butt due to model distribution. At least in the Combat Patrol box you have two copies of the kit, so you can almost have your weapon types segregated into different units.

The hell... that's not even a legal split? Boys come in squads of 10 so the hell are you gonna do with 5 Sluggas and 5 Shootas? (with one being stuck with a special weapon)

[PhoenixPhyre]

The hell... that's not even a legal split? Boys come in squads of 10 so the hell are you gonna do with 5 Sluggas and 5 Shootas? (with one being stuck with a special weapon)

Buy another Combat Patrol?

[Squark]

The combat Patrol already has 2 sprues. But I don't think that makes a full mob of shoota boyz; you'd have 6 shootas, 2 special weapons, and a nob, while the Slugga boyz would have a nob and 10 slugga boyz.

That being said, the old ork boyz box has been spotted with new packaging, so this looks to be more like what GW did with Slaves to Darkness. So I guess you can mix these guys in with old boyz.


But yeah, by themselves, those boyz are a basically useless, which really drags down what was otherwise a decent combat patrol.

[Hootman]

The hell... that's not even a legal split?

Oh, don't worry. Boyz units can have any combination of Shoota and Choppa Boyz in them. And you can put Big Shootas and Rokkits in Choppa units, 1-per-10, same as with Shootas. Just because no one ever does either of those doesn't mean you can't! It's totally fine, and I don't know what anyone could possibly be upset about.

Boyz 10
-8 Choppas, 1 Big Shoota, Nob with whatever.

Boyz 10
-2 Choppas, 6 Shootas, 1 Rokkit, Nob with whatever.

See? It's fine.

[Blackhawk748]

Oh, don't worry. Boyz units can have any combination of Shoota and Choppa Boyz in them. And you can put Big Shootas and Rokkits in Choppa units, 1-per-10, same as with Shootas. Just because no one ever does either of those doesn't mean you can't! It's totally fine, and I don't know what anyone could possibly be upset about.

Boyz 10
-8 Choppas, 1 Big Shoota, Nob with whatever.

Boyz 10
-2 Choppas, 6 Shootas, 1 Rokkit, Nob with whatever.

See? It's fine.

...

Why would they let you mix and match Choppas and Shootas? Thats moronic. We had it be one or the other since at least 4th edition for a reason.

Stop being stupid GW.

[9mm]

We had it be one or the other since at least 4th edition for a reason.

Stop being stupid GW.

to paraphrase Schlock Mercenary: "The truly bad ideas always come back for another go."

Honest answer is lets be real, when looking a block of 30 boys, will you really notice that 9 technically have shootas?

[LeSwordfish]

They're also incredibly good models.

[9mm]

well got my first game of Kill Team in today. I'm sure we got lots of things wrong but taking 5 Infiltrators, popping Bolter Drill, and just going full auto against Eldar was enjoyable. Next time I think I'll take the Interssesors and see what happens with a relatively more mixed loadout.

[Renegade Paladin]

I wish reading the rules wasn't a lost art. There's an actual proper Crusade league (not an escalation league with the Crusade rules slapped on) starting up here, and my first opponent thinks that the roster = the list and he gets to take 60PL because he bought Increase Supply Limit twice. Meanwhile my roster can't make a coherent army list if chucked at the table in its entirety, because I built it to be used as intended, so it has four HQs to give me tools in the toolbox.

[Hootman]

I didn't realize that Crusade expected you to play a few 500pt (or 25PL) games first to get some RP under your belt for a small time investment at first either. I played my first (and, thusfar, only) game at 1000pts, using my whole starting Roster. I realized it when going through all my stuff to make proper Crusade cards later, though, so that's what I'll probably do next time.

That would've made list building so much easier. I wouldn't have rushed a Battalion either, but I also wasn't super familiar with the new Detachment structure, and didn't know Patrols were a thing you could do. These past two weeks of reading rules has been generally enlightening.

Edit: I know they existed before, but never used one, because CP came from detachments instead of game size. That took a while to sink in.

[Avaris]

Yeah, the idea of ‘select an army from your roster’ is non-obvious when people are so used to larger games as the norm. In my experience, 50 PL is a bit of a sweet spot for Crusade game size: at 25 PL you don’t quite have enough units to be able to ensure both players have a decent chance of things, as one player will quickly lose a unit or two and then have little left. At 50 PL there are more options available. Anything larger than that feels like it would be too mentally tiring to be enjoyable in the way I want to enjoy Crusade games, so people trying to replicate an escalation league with it may be spoiling their own fun slightly.

(The roster thing is also why I feel Power Level is much better for Crusade, as it is just much more straightforward to be able to mix and match units using Pal than points)

[Cheesegear]

Yeah, the idea of ‘select an army from your roster’ is non-obvious when people are so used to larger games as the norm.

It's obvious when you read the rules. Same as it was in Kill Team.

at 25 PL you don’t quite have enough units to be able to ensure both players have a decent chance of things, as one player will quickly lose a unit or two and then have little left. At 50 PL there are more options available.

Because Crusade is meant to be a Collector's Game. You're meant to be some sort of scrub who just 'buys what they like' and have a hodge podge of units to choose from, none of which makes sense. If you're starting Crusade with a pre-existing army that you already have, you're already playing the game wrong, because Crusade is meant to be 'fun for scrubs'. It's meant to gamify your investment in the hobby. If you aren't gamifying your hobby, you don't need to be playing Crusade.

people trying to replicate an escalation league with it may be spoiling their own fun slightly.

Unless you're starting a brand new army in order to play Crusade, you're spoiling your own fun slightly.

(The roster thing is also why I feel Power Level is much better for Crusade

Power Level is the only way that Crusade can work.
Power Level is broken.
If Crusade can only work via a broken system, Crusade is inherently broken. Which is why you have to come at it like you don't know what you're doing, because it's designed for you to not know what you're doing. The instant you know what you're doing, and you start Collecting-with-Purpose before you even have the RP necessary to put units in your Roster, you're already above the skill cap meant for Crusade.

[Avaris]

My current Crusade army is Death Guard. I have over 2000 points of Death Guard, all of which I had before 9th released. Yet I still play Crusade with them.

Why? Because that’s the way my friends and I want to play. We don’t find 2,000 point matched play especially appealing. We COULD play that way, we have the skills, understanding of the rules and collections to do so, but we choose not to.

I play Crusade because I want to tell a story with my army. My Lord of Contagion, Narsitrix, is on the road to demonhood, so I play her every game atm. She has so far gained two random traits, and is fairly terrifying, but when she gains a third there is a chance she will turn into a Chaos Spawn. I have models ready either way.

I’m also thinking of adding a Plague Surgeon for the sole purpose of being a rival to my most regular opponent’s Apothecary, who he is focussing his story on. In our most recent game he took the ‘collect geneseed’ agenda. The obvious thing for me to do was to place the objective for this as far away from him as possible; instead I put it between our lines, and also suggested a house rule that would make it more achievable for my opponent, because I felt that would make a more interesting game (he still didn’t achieve it).

This is the way we play it. Whether it is ‘broken’ doesn’t come into it, because we’re making decisions on the basis of what we find most enjoyable. There is no one true way to play 40k, and the idea that you shouldn’t play Crusade because you’re ‘above the skill cap’ is utter nonsense.

[Forum Explorer]

Crusade does however, instantly break if you try to break it. There's no resilience to it. I'm playing in a crusade with a GM. He made the mistake of letting us pick our unit upgrades and play as many matches as we wanted per round. Bam, nearly instantly there is a massive gap between those who play frequently (and thus level up more) and those who don't. Not to mention that at early levels you can't really change your list. You either have a casual list or a competitive list. So sometimes it isn't even worth playing.

He's going to implement some balance changes now that we are entering phase 2 of the campaign. I'm curious to see what he is going to do.

[Avaris]

One thing I’ve been doing is consulting my opponent over which upgrade to get, based on how the game went.

[LansXero]

There is no one true way to play 40k, and the idea that you shouldn’t play Crusade because you’re ‘above the skill cap’ is utter nonsense.

This is the way we play it. Whether it is ‘broken’ doesn’t come into it, because we’re making decisions on the basis of what we find most enjoyable.

See, thats the thing. Whatever skill you have, you're not applying it to the game. You're making up your own set of values and applying them over the rules as written, so that winning isnt the point but narrative, 'fun' or whatever.

Therefore, you're playing as someone who doesn't have a clue about how to win. Because thats fun for you but still. Its like our semi-pro friends playing random and using a troll build when they play DotA with us. They could tryhard if they wanted but then they play their alt accounts to destress so there they go durdling with a support as carry, something a clueless noob will do.

[Avaris]

See, thats the thing. Whatever skill you have, you're not applying it to the game. You're making up your own set of values and applying them over the rules as written, so that winning isnt the point but narrative, 'fun' or whatever.

Therefore, you're playing as someone who doesn't have a clue about how to win. Because thats fun for you but still. Its like our semi-pro friends playing random and using a troll build when they play DotA with us. They could tryhard if they wanted but then they play their alt accounts to destress so there they go durdling with a support as carry, something a clueless noob will do.

And the thing is, none of that matters.

The purpose of a game is to enjoy yourself. Some people get that enjoyment through system mastery, some get it through telling a story, some get it through winning. The way you enjoy yourself does not matter. All that matters is that you do, as otherwise it’s a waste of your time.

[LansXero]

And the thing is, none of that matters.

The purpose of a game is to enjoy yourself. Some people get that enjoyment through system mastery, some get it through telling a story, some get it through winning. The way you enjoy yourself does not matter. All that matters is that you do, as otherwise it’s a waste of your time.

Of course it matters. You need to be good enough to realize you need to play suboptimally to keep it from breaking. It is because of the system mastery that you know going verbatim from the book leads to feel bad moments. It is because you have a passing understanding at least of the mechanics that you realize abusing free wargear gets broken quickly.

Also, what you enjoy doesn't necessarily echo what your play group enjoys. So there is a bit of a give and take. You can play in ways that entertain you yet aren't your favourite way of playing. It might be a bet on creating new, someday competitive players, a vehicle to spend time with people you happen to like, or a way to get some gaming, no matter how noobtastic. It can even be buyer's regret forcing you to get some use out of several hundred dollars of plastic toys. Point being, its not about 'my top fun or nothing'.

[Blackhawk748]

I'm reminded of a quote from John Cleese, “In order to know how good you are at something requires exactly the same skills as it does to be good at that thing in the first place". He was making jokes about stupid Producers in Film, but it's true of everything.

In this instance, you have to have a minimum amount of competency at 40k to not accidentally shatter Crusade, and in not breaking it, then you can run around and have fun. The issue is that minimum required competency.

If someone really likes Terminators, because they're cool and they want to run 1st company, they can easily break the thing. If someone loves Special Weapons and you use PL, you can easily break the thing. You get the point, and then Crusade adds more issues on top with the "random traits" (which should be segregated into a few charts so they're at least properly thematically linked to things that a unit may have done) which will either suck and be pointless or actually be useful. Or you can just pick something, but that opens up a different can of worms.

Crusades biggest sin, in my eyes, isn't that its stupidly broken (though that annoys me), its that its meant for new players, but new players are the ones who will encounter the biggest problems inside of it because they don't have the competency necessary to avoid the potholes.

[Renegade Paladin]

Yeah, the guy organizing the Crusade (I lost the job of narrative organizer when I observed COVID restrictions, so it isn't me) overruled my objections and is allowing proxying. So I fully expect the PL system to be rampantly abused.

[LeSwordfish]

I can't wait to try Crusade, honestly: I think it would be a really fun way to play with my Ember Lords that have never seen a tabletop. In-person gaming is finally returning to my area, so I might get to give that a try.

[Avaris]

Crusades biggest sin, in my eyes, isn't that its stupidly broken (though that annoys me), its that its meant for new players, but new players are the ones who will encounter the biggest problems inside of it because they don't have the competency necessary to avoid the potholes.

I’m not sure I agree it’s meant for new players tbh. I think the idea is that new players play ‘open’ games, not overly caring about extra complexities from either matched play or narrative play, while they learn the ropes. Then, once they’ve got a few games under their belt, they can begin adding things from the toolbox to their games, depending on the experience they want. Just as you wouldn’t throw a new player into a full matched play game, you shouldn’t throw them into a full crusade game.

[Cheesegear]

I’m not sure I agree it’s meant for new players tbh.

I'm 100% sure it is. If not new players, then people starting new armies.

The intent of the format is to gamify the collecting of your army, so that you maintain your investment in the game, in order to keep consuming product, instead of dropping out because you haven't got any investment in Your Dudes. Which is very common in new players. I remember my GW Blackshirt saying something very similar to this when I told him Crusade was garbage. He said something to the effect of 'Crusade isn't meant for you.', to which the goto response should always be 'Then who is [Crusade] for, if not me?' And he gave me answer he probably shouldn't have given me; It's designed to keep new players invested in the hobby, when building and painting isn't enough to keep them going.

There has to be a reason to build, paint and play. You can't just play for fun, because Gen Zers everyone has a million and three other things they can do 'for fun'. You have to play games because there's a progression system built in. You have to play games to level up your army. Because Skinner Box theory. There is no reason to play games if there's no reward. In a tournament, there are prizes to be won. What is the reward for playing in a casual game, that you can't get from literally doing anything else? XP. RP. Progression.

There is no such thing as Wrongfun. I agree with you. If you enjoy the games that you are playing, then that is a good thing.

But there is such a way to play the game a way that it isn't designed to be played.

In D&D, there is literally no rule that says the DM can't do whatever they want - in fact they're encouraged to do whatever they want explicitly. However, the DM has to realise that any change they make to the game, is a change that they made, and as such may not necessarily represent a design goal for D&D.

[Blackhawk748]

So I've finally gotten a proper look through the new Ad Mech Codex (because there hasn't been anyone who plays 40k near me for like 2 years so I only ever skimmed new stuff) and Im now wondering why I hadn't heard about the Holy Orders.

Like, none of them blow my mind (needing to use an Action in order to get the full benefit is... bleh) but some of the base abilities are interesting plus they effectively give you an extra CP for some points.

Im not sure if any of them are fully worth it or not, I'm just curious why I never heard about them.

[Forum Explorer]

So I've finally gotten a proper look through the new Ad Mech Codex (because there hasn't been anyone who plays 40k near me for like 2 years so I only ever skimmed new stuff) and Im now wondering why I hadn't heard about the Holy Orders.

Like, none of them blow my mind (needing to use an Action in order to get the full benefit is... bleh) but some of the base abilities are interesting plus they effectively give you an extra CP for some points.

Im not sure if any of them are fully worth it or not, I'm just curious why I never heard about them.

I don't know why you haven't heard of them, people certainly have been complaining about them. The CP added on makes pretty much any of them worth it, because none of them are that expensive. And the best one isn't the most expensive so...

[Blackhawk748]

I don't know why you haven't heard of them, people certainly have been complaining about them. The CP added on makes pretty much any of them worth it, because none of them are that expensive. And the best one isn't the most expensive so...

I figured they were worth it cuz 35 (at most) for a free CP is totally worth it, I just hadn't heard anything about them. Don't recall anyone mentioning them here or any of the Hype articles I ran across mentioned them.